Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[kupo15]

I think there is a tech. that could make this match up a little easier. You have enough time to waveland straight from being jabbed at any %. If you can get good at this against an unpredictable lvl 1 cpu then you should be be able to do it consistently against a rhythmic human.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

haha i did something like that not too long ago. the grab range was too good. you can't waveland away faster than the ftilt/grab can get to you.

i wavelanded on purpose away once from a jab and still got grabbed. at that point i almost threw my controller. i'm not an angry person, but focusing on a tech like that and still getting worked was quite frustrating.

and no, a spaced ftilt cannot be shieldgrabbed. i think it simply outspaces the grab, or they can jump for a fair/crouch for a dtilt before getting grabbed.

 

[Divinokage]

80-20 match up ftl.

What? More like 60-40 or 65-35? It's not THAT bad. Learn your spacing and mix-ups.

 

[Flonomenalz]

What? More like 60-40 or 65-35? It's not THAT bad. Learn your spacing and mix-ups.

I was just quoting smashwiki on the match up but I guess they exaggerated.

So what do you do in the match up against sheik kage?

 

[kupo15]

haha i did something like that not too long ago. the grab range was too good. you can't waveland away faster than the ftilt/grab can get to you.

i wavelanded on purpose away once from a jab and still got grabbed. at that point i almost threw my controller. i'm not an angry person, but focusing on a tech like that and still getting worked was quite frustrating.

and no, a spaced ftilt cannot be shieldgrabbed. i think it simply outspaces the grab, or they can jump for a fair/crouch for a dtilt before getting grabbed.

...

are you serious? Sheik makes me want to quit this game.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

he plays ganon smarter than the opponent plays sheik. ganon has to read her next move and slap a hitbox there. there is no strategy. thats whats so frustrating. it's simply being substantially better than the sheik so as to hit her enough to kill her four times before you die four times. thats what makes the matchup so hard...

i'm sure kage has a slightly more satisfying answer. but it will pretty much involve spacing bair and tilts, not falling for grab baits, and capitalizing through cg's on the grabs you do magically receive from the smash gods.

edit: yeah kupo, sheik really is a pain. i saw the puff of smoke come out for the waveland and then i saw myself teleport back into sheiks grab and i was just like "well, ****"

 

[spider_sense]

I'm sorry Kage but Sheik vs Ganon is not 60-40. It's definitely 70-30. There's a mediocre sheik player (he's very good but definitely no where near Linguini's level) here in SFL, who went even with Linguini, just based solely on his character and the character Linguini plays and even took sets just by camping and not approaching. There is no amount of spacing, cc, and edge guarding that is guaranteed against this ninja *****. Just play a really campy sheik and see how that goes. It's annoyingly frustrating. As a matter of fact we should just dedicate a thread on how to beat this ***** of a princess. Everything you do has to be PERFECT for you to at least stand a chance.

 

[DippnDots]

I mean Kage did beat plank at pound 3, he was the epitome of camping. Not that I don't agree with your post or anything. Just call him out for being bias

 

[Divinokage]

I'm sorry Kage but Sheik vs Ganon is not 60-40. It's definitely 70-30. There's a mediocre sheik player (he's very good but definitely no where near Linguini's level) here in SFL, who went even with Linguini, just based solely on his character and the character Linguini plays and even took sets just by camping and not approaching. There is no amount of spacing, cc, and edge guarding that is guaranteed against this ninja *****. Just play a really campy sheik and see how that goes. It's annoyingly frustrating. As a matter of fact we should just dedicate a thread on how to beat this ***** of a princess. Everything you do has to be PERFECT for you to at least stand a chance.

I think he's as bad vs Sheik than I am vs Falco. If the Sheik is not M2k or something then I can definitely beat him no problem.

I mean Kage did beat plank at pound 3, he was the epitome of camping. Not that I don't agree with your post or anything. Just call him out for being bias

All my MMs and sets vs him, I always beat him. Last time I beat him was at Apex 2010.. he didn't stand a chance haha. Though I did lose to Tope that time, it was extremely close, I beat before a lot too. I used to beat Vanz too a lot. I played every Sheik almost.

It's basically a battle where you have to bait the sheik to do moves and then you counter attack her. No matter what you have to keep the furthest spacing you can get.. or else you will get grabbed or hit. You can't spam moves nor be predictible with them. It's kinda hard to explain. Sheik is bad OOS, so you can definitely exploit that.. hit her shield and then if you think she's gonna jump then you can upair her or space Fair again.. even a Tilt after an aerial. You have to make her think twice and keep her in shield.. and then you can go for empty jump grab. Sheik is fast though so and her moves comes out fast... you cannot attack her from above unless she goes for something like dash attack if not it's never a good idea. If you do then it's a free grab for her. Just be good at mix-ups and you got this.

 

[Flonomenalz]

I think he's as bad vs Sheik than I am vs Falco. If the Sheik is not M2k or something then I can definitely beat him no problem.



All my MMs and sets vs him, I always beat him. Last time I beat him was at Apex 2010.. he didn't stand a chance haha. Though I did lose to Tope that time, it was extremely close, I beat before a lot too. I used to beat Vanz too a lot. I played every Sheik almost.

It's basically a battle where you have to bait the sheik to do moves and then you counter attack her. No matter what you have to keep the furthest spacing you can get.. or else you will get grabbed or hit. You can't spam moves nor be predictible with them. It's kinda hard to explain. Sheik is bad OOS, so you can definitely exploit that.. hit her shield and then if you think she's gonna jump then you can upair her or space Fair again.. even a Tilt after an aerial. You have to make her think twice and keep her in shield.. and then you can go for empty jump grab. Sheik is fast though so and her moves comes out fast... you cannot attack her from above unless she goes for something like dash attack if not it's never a good idea. If you do then it's a free grab for her. Just be good at mix-ups and you got this.

Thanks a lot!

 

[-ACE-]

Kage brought up some good points. If you can keep sheik in shield you can control the pace of the match. Like he said uair is really good if you think sheik will jump oos. If you think she will hesitate, you can empty sh > waveland> grab, or try a sh dair shield poke (don't fastfall, give her shield more time to shrink). Use ganon's heel and not his toe; you wouldn't think so but his heal is pretty much at the center of the hitbox and works a lot better. If you get the dair at low%, grab her when she pops up and changrab your *** off. Finish the cg with a smash attack around 84-86% or dthrow one more time and bair/fair to set yourself up for an easy edgeguard.

When you don't have control, you must keep your space. Try to stay just out side of tilt range so that sheik feels pressured but you aren't in any immediate danger if she goes for an attack (leave yourself enough space so that you'll have time to react). You can lure her in with full jump dair/fair, and then dj and punish or waveland. SH uair to dj leaves you many options when she is closer, and you can make it a retreating uair if you think she might approach. It's very important that you switch things up so that you don't become predictable. Check my Ganon Edgeguarding 101 thread for tips on edgeguarding sheik.

Imo, this matchup is 65/35. Winnable, but you have to put in 5 times the effort that sheik does and you can't afford to make hardly any mistakes. And practice the chaingrab. I always hear people say "what do you do against sheik BESIDES chaingrab?" But seems like I never see many ganons fully abuse the power of the chaingrab. Make it 2nd nature. If you whiff one regrab in tournament it could potentially cost you the set.

Edit: lol kage, guini is very good vs sheik.

 

[Linguini]

I think he's as bad vs Sheik than I am vs Falco. If the Sheik is not M2k or something then I can definitely beat him no problem.



All my MMs and sets vs him, I always beat him. Last time I beat him was at Apex 2010.. he didn't stand a chance haha. Though I did lose to Tope that time, it was extremely close, I beat before a lot too. I used to beat Vanz too a lot. I played every Sheik almost.

It's basically a battle where you have to bait the sheik to do moves and then you counter attack her. No matter what you have to keep the furthest spacing you can get.. or else you will get grabbed or hit. You can't spam moves nor be predictible with them. It's kinda hard to explain. Sheik is bad OOS, so you can definitely exploit that.. hit her shield and then if you think she's gonna jump then you can upair her or space Fair again.. even a Tilt after an aerial. You have to make her think twice and keep her in shield.. and then you can go for empty jump grab. Sheik is fast though so and her moves comes out fast... you cannot attack her from above unless she goes for something like dash attack if not it's never a good idea. If you do then it's a free grab for her. Just be good at mix-ups and you got this.

lol dude you don't even CG vs sheik, that's not good...

I'm probably just as good as you at the matchup, don't know where you got that nonsense from. I lost to tope at Tipped Off 6 but it was 3rd match and madd close. Jason, nicaboy took sets off me when i was mad rusty and playing once a month, when i actually concentrated it wasn't pretty lol

 

[Divinokage]

lol dude you don't even CG vs sheik, that's not good...

I'm probably just as good as you at the matchup, don't know where you got that nonsense from. I lost to tope at Tipped Off 6 but it was 3rd match and madd close. Jason, nicaboy took sets off me when i was mad rusty and playing once a month, when i actually concentrated it wasn't pretty lol

What? I always do! It's just that time vs M2k where we agreed to play without CG.. probably my biggest mistake at Genesis haha. =p

And that nonsense is simply my style works better vs Sheik and not so much vs spacies. I normally continuously attack Sheik keeping my space and making her guess. It's true one fail spacing = lots of potential dmg. Your style will work differently vs certain players, that's general and it will happen. Some players are better vs some other players at top level, I mean when you pit style vs style. And I think I'm better vs Sheik.

 

[Sovereign]

There's no general discussion for me to burst into, but I'll say it here, since I'm here:

Happy Birthday shoutout to Kage. You're my all-time fave Melee Ganon to watch. Hope you have many more.

 

[meta Zob]

There's no general discussion for me to burst into, but I'll say it here, since I'm here:

Happy Birthday shoutout to Kage. You're my all-time fave Melee Ganon to watch. Hope you have many more.

yeah happy 25th birthday kage! I also will admit your my favorite melee ganon to watch.

On another note i find my self facing so many Fox,Falco,C.falcon,Peach,marth,and Sheik players that i know the match up fairly well but i have troubles with characters that most people don't play but you will still find 1 or 2 at a tournament what should i do in those cases.

some example characters for were i live:
Kirby
Pikachu
Dr. Mario
Yoshi
Samus

 

[Bl@ckChris]

bair.

10bairs.

 

[DippnDots]

Doc can be rough if you don't know what you're doing. Don't feel rushed at all to get a hit on him, he's not the easiest person in the world to approach. I found when i was learning the match up that just sitting back and making an extra effort to not get hit by pills really helps you learn when you can get a hit in and when you'll get punished. I can't go into specifics with doc, just don't fall into his pill traps and keep in mind he's not as slow as he seems.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Vs Pikachu is really simple for Ganon as long as you avoid his situational gimp tactics. Pikachu just gets owned by good spacing, and while you're not going to get many edgeguards on him, his oos options are trash and your grab KO setups (and your chaingrab) on him are too good.

 

[nicaboy]

lol dude you don't even CG vs sheik, that's not good...

I'm probably just as good as you at the matchup, don't know where you got that nonsense from. I lost to tope at Tipped Off 6 but it was 3rd match and madd close. Jason, nicaboy took sets off me when i was mad rusty and playing once a month, when i actually concentrated it wasn't pretty lol

Ya it was even
you beat like my falco or something with secondaries.

I remember going back and forth and if you dont that good **** is getting too your head. Plz dont go there

Btw your coming in town next month ya? Hey I'll bring my recording set up. Me and you do that thing you do(lol you know!) and we mm? I'll make sure to upload it next day so you dont forget 10 is good?

O jason as far as being mediocre thanks haha

and ya your right sheik ganon is like 65-35 (although 6-4 isnt far off either but eh it feels a little worse than that). Im not near linguini's level but i most def know that match that him being better than me kinda fades away a little due to the match up.

kage is better probably lol

 

[Linguini]

Ya it was even
you beat like my falco or something with secondaries.

I remember going back and forth and if you dont that good **** is getting too your head. Plz dont go there

Btw your coming in town next month ya? Hey I'll bring my recording set up. Me and you do that thing you do(lol you know!) and we mm? I'll make sure to upload it next day so you dont forget 10 is good?

O jason as far as being mediocre thanks haha

and ya your right sheik ganon is like 65-35 (although 6-4 isnt far off either but eh it feels a little worse than that). Im not near linguini's level but i most def know that match that him being better than me kinda fades away a little due to the match up.

kage is better probably lol

lollll false

p.s. and yeah ill do the mm thing, i need to refresh your memory anyways

 

[meta Zob]

Doc can be rough if you don't know what you're doing. Don't feel rushed at all to get a hit on him, he's not the easiest person in the world to approach. I found when i was learning the match up that just sitting back and making an extra effort to not get hit by pills really helps you learn when you can get a hit in and when you'll get punished. I can't go into specifics with doc, just don't fall into his pill traps and keep in mind he's not as slow as he seems.

haha thanks it does seem like most of the match up is really avoiding those pills and trying not to get gimped off the edge by the cape or bair.

Vs Pikachu is really simple for Ganon as long as you avoid his situational gimp tactics. Pikachu just gets owned by good spacing, and while you're not going to get many edgeguards on him, his oos options are trash and your grab KO setups (and your chaingrab) on him are too good.

thanks. I've been told this a lot by my friends and i think my major problem with this match up really is that the Pikachu player is just a better player than me.

out of all them i think losing to Kirby was the worst mainly because that was a total moral crusher.

 

[kupo15]

Ledge hop waveland turn around down b. Talk about sexy.

 

[A2ZOMG]

out of all them i think losing to Kirby was the worst mainly because that was a total moral crusher.

Vs Kirby is actually really really annoying if they know what they're doing. Ganon doesn't really destroy Kirby just for the simple fact that Kirby is able to duck under a lot of his moves, grab I think happens to be included. Also he gimps you pretty easily, so a mistake against him can actually be somewhat costly. You have to space your tilts (remember to angle F-tilt down!) and aerials especially carefully against Kirby, and Smashes generally aren't very useful on him with the exception of the occasional D-throw -> U-smash if he DIs away.

Edgeguarding him however is pretty awesome. Just don't let him swallowcide you of course. Personally though I'd pick another character against Kirby, just because this matchup is pointlessly annoying. G&W isn't nearly as good as Ganon overall, but using basically the same playstyle as Ganon he does like infinitely better against Kirby than Ganon does lol. I think last time I saw a ratio for G&W vs Kirby, it was like 80/20 G&W's favor in this game lmao.

 

[bliu12]

i have trouble doing a ledgehop uair. i use down and y to jump to ledgehop and i cant even get the uair out at all. is there any way to do this using the same buttons? or do i have to change my method of ledgehopping to do a ledgehop uiar?

 

[Pawls to the Wall]

i have trouble doing a ledgehop uair. i use down and y to jump to ledgehop and i cant even get the uair out at all. is there any way to do this using the same buttons? or do i have to change my method of ledgehopping to do a ledgehop uiar?

That's how I do it and it works just fine. You must be broken.

 

[-ACE-]

i have trouble doing a ledgehop uair. i use down and y to jump to ledgehop and i cant even get the uair out at all. is there any way to do this using the same buttons? or do i have to change my method of ledgehopping to do a ledgehop uiar?

It's all speed, it doesn't necessarily matter which method you choose. Just keep practicing.

 

[Superspright]

Practice on stage doing a SH uair first frame from the jump (NO FF). If you get it right you should be able to 'punt' marth from his standing animation. If you can get that, then get the ledge drop in there. It will be easy, and you can practice the timing better on stage since you won't risk death...or just go to hyrule.

But the best way to feel the timing for it as fast as possible is being able to SH and kick someone in front of you.

 

[A2ZOMG]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoeCyTbYNjs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stz1dRCkh8c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdwt5HOjmJw

^A few vids of my Ganon.

 

[spider_sense]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoeCyTbYNjs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stz1dRCkh8c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdwt5HOjmJw

^A few vids of my Ganon.

Nice vids A2z. If you want me too. I can put these up in the Ganon archive vids. We need some up.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Hmmmm, if you're still running that thread, sounds great to me.

First and last match are vs Falcon. Second one is vs Falco.

 

[kupo15]

I think it very important to get good at pivoting any move except utilt

 

[A2ZOMG]

Dash -> Pivot -> Gerudo is situationally sexy. I just wish the move had just a tad more range. Like Falcon's SideB kinda.

 

[kupo15]

pivot side b is expected. Pivot dB however isn't and is really sexy. Just things like pivot fsmash, dB, usmash, ftilt, jab, dtilt, dsmash ect is a great way to start stuff.

Its great to have someone chase after when you are running away only to have a surprise pivot attack in their face.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno, I just like how our SideB is usually safe on block. Unlike Falcon's which is easy to shieldgrab.

But I'm gonna try pivot Down-B now that you mention it. That **** sounds nasty.

 

[kupo15]

Dude. I've been practicing pivot dB off and on for over a month and am now at a level to incorporate in my game. There specific times to dB vs sB. The prob i find with side b at times is that the start up sfx is so recognizable that I feel as though ppl can grab you out of it on reaction. If you know sB will hit a shield then do it over dB.

What's even more kick *** which I need to practice is ledge waveland reverse dB. Sick stuff.


I just realized a theory. Since ganon relies more on his ground moves compared to other characters, I think that fox trotting during the baiting game is more effective then just running away. This is only assuming that you are comfortable with pivots. The if you fox trot then you will always be in the position to pivot which is something I think is crucial to ganon. Well see

 

[Bl@ckChris]

funny. i play ganon primarily through the air.

i primarily space bair. when i land, i may do a turnaround jab or ftilt, but it starts in the air.

my primary oos option is uair.

all his aerials are really strong, and really the only smash i really use is dsmash, which covers a lot of options when the opponent is getting off ledges.

only char i stay on the ground more against is like...luigi.

 

[kupo15]

I think pivots is more crucial to my style. I love pivot fsmash and its easy. I want to get better at pivot ftilt. I always try to land smashes whenever I can and I use nair a lot over uair. I feel like I can control the field more when I'm grounded and when I'm not so air happy.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

how is this game still alive? It truly is a classic.

 

[DippnDots]

isn't it just a great feeling to see a continual in-flux of new players with new ideas. PS thomas, it probably goes without saying but i've never told ya before, your triforce of power vid is what helped me more than anything else when i was beginning this game 4 years ago

 

[spider_sense]

how is this game still alive? It truly is a classic.

LOL This guy! Long time no see man, when you're coming back to Miami again? I'm pretty sure people would be overly hyped to see Thomas Tipman vs Jason G. matches. **** a n!gga Linguini. (j/k Emilio you know I love you kid) This time I won't choke, I'll straight up murk you.