Q&A How to Wreck *****es with Ganon?- Linguini Q&A Thread

[Bl@ckChris]

how is this game still alive? It truly is a classic.

well, we keep reviving the **** thing.

come to rom3, and maybe you'll understand

 

[A2ZOMG]

all his aerials are really strong, and really the only smash i really use is dsmash, which covers a lot of options when the opponent is getting off ledges

My most used Smash is F-smash...seriously F-smash is GODLY useful. You just gotta make good predictions with it, but there are things that only F-smash can hit when you got your opponent's spacing downloaded. Plus it does a ****ton of damage. It's the kind of move where if you know your opponent is gonna hit a button that isn't shield, this move just WINS.

I like U-smash a lot too. Great anti-air, and if you land both hits it does HUGE damage. It's totally safe on block too.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

hrmmm...

if i can fsmash, i could've run up and grabbed. if you can grab, you can aerial. every aerial not nair > fsmash

or if its the pullback thats useful, i could've wavedashed back and wizard foot.

i also use usmash, but i use it more for the horizontal knockback hitbox than the straight up second hit hitbox.

 

[kupo15]

You got to find a way to land fsmash and other wack stuff more often. Then you will be thinking about the game and your opponents options much better. IMO you can't just be using your aerials 80% of the time because its very limited and gets predictable and countered.

I can't believe you don't use usmash that much. The best is being able to use that as a counter move instead of from a combo. The great thing about smashes stuff is that if done right, you can control your opponent without moving too much. See that he is trying to use an aerial? Scare him with a charged usmash then release it when he has backed off then advance on him. Its great to be able to control the match with on purpose whiffs

 

[A2ZOMG]

F-smash >>>> WD back to Wizkick. It's faster, and it's 22 damage uncharged as opposed to 15. Kills characters from like 80-100%, while wizkick usually kills people at around 120-130%.

Also, Ganon leans back like on frame 1 of his F-smash. So it's like instantly spotdodging.

F-smash reaches farther than jump cancel grabbing and KOs earlier, but you do get slightly more damage from throw -> aerial on floaties.

Seriously though, Ganon's F-smash is a GREAT move, and the utility and raw power of it justifies its use. Also, crossing someone over with F-smash is hella trippy and scares the **** out of people.

Oh yeah, and throwing out random U-smashes is fun. Most people don't like to challenge it directly due to its insane damage and relatively high priority, and U-smash -> Jab/F-tilt is a good mindgame and people will often run into it.

 

[kupo15]

23% if you angle it up lol.

I love countering marth fsmash with my own especially since marth extends his hurt box which means it extends my range :D

All of ganon's smashes are amazing. Idk why ppl don't use them more often. The dsmash can sometimes link into other smashes or my favorite dsmash>air dB near the edges

 

[Pawls to the Wall]

Fsmash kills Jiggs. Just don't miss or you'll die. That's all I've got to say.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

yeah paul, you've got the right idea.

wizkick will set up an edgeguard. Anyone who knows how to DI will go straight up from fsmashes and not die until....late. Maybe I'm not as in tune to my opponents as you guys, but if I need an anti air, I'm going either bair, or up angled ftilt. Uaft gives better range with like half the cooldown of usmash and bair, you can retreat and space like a champ and rarely get punished.

smashes are good. But they have to hit. And I mean like...they have to hit. And in the rare situations that they hit, 80% of the time, there's something simpler yet more effective for the situation.

 

[kupo15]

Smashes don't have to hit to be effective if you know when to use them.

 

[-ACE-]

how is this game still alive? It truly is a classic.

TIPMAN!! Glad to see you're still around. We need you haha.

fsmash and usmash guys? really? I like the fact that you guys are thinking and experimenting as well as expressing your views openly.

-they're slowwwwwwww
-if you miss, you leave yourself completely open and at high level play you are dead.
-you can't start or continue combos
-almost always requires a good read or bad DI to land

Imo you should try to stick to smashes being used in-combo (finish cg on sheik, dthrow > usmash kos, dair > usmash on bad DI, etc.). Like if I was playing someone like Dr Peepee (whom I've played many times in the past), usmash and especially fsmash, are pretty much out the window. They are too slow and too risky for relatively little gain. You will very rarely land usmash or fsmash on top tier players/characters, and you will die every time you miss. I like to dsmash though, as a tech chase and when fastfallers are on platforms or forced to tech near the edge.

Learn to deal with approaches, tech chase, get people offstage and gimp their ***! That's what I say.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon's U-smash is usually safe on whiff especially assuming your opponent is in the air as you do it, since it is very unwise for most characters to challenge it directly.

Backwards facing D-smash is usually safe on whiff and block as well.

If your opponent knows how to space around your aerials and tilts, you're probably in for an uphill battle no matter the matchup. The thing that makes F-smash GODLY useful is how it usually requires a completely different spacing counter than all your other moves. Well...screw Falco. But seriously, F-smash is legit. Situational yes, but the situations it is good in, it's EXCELLENT.

I mean watch how many times SilentSpectre changes the momentum of a match with F-smash. Granted Ganon doesn't have Falcon's mobility, but the principle of use remains the same. Ganon is a character who can create legit baiting situations very easily, and F-smash is an EXCELLENT bait punisher.

 

[kupo15]

You sooo can combo from an usmash at low % against FFers into nair/uair and stuff. Even against non FFers the position it puts them in makes it easier for you to continue with strings. Its also pretty usable to use Usmash against ppl who double jump above you trying to bait you. There really isn't much they can do to challenge it so you can whiff as they back off. But if you catch someone without their double jump you can do massive damage because you countered with a usmash.

Also, sometimes elaborate combos are worse than landing some smashes. Especially in platform situations, you can do double usmash and stuff like that leading up to 60% with three moves. I personally think that Usmash is one of the safest things you can do under the platform. It deals good shield stuff and is pretty safe if they are on the platform even if you miss.

Another is tech chasing with usmash. If you predict it right they can tech right into a charge crouch usmash. If they don't roll in then release the usmash and you should still be able to advance before they are out of their tech.

Here is the best time I've ever used Fsmash. I was facing Jash's ylink and he did a ledge hop that I counter with my fsmash and this lead to a fair because he had no jumps. I killed him with two moves from 20%. I would say fsmash is the best when used to counter ledge stuff but it is usable elsewhere.

Now I did encounter times at the tourney where my mistake really costed me but that happened to all my approaches equally. If you can get good at landing hard to hit moves then it will really help you to improve more so than sticking to safe moves

 

[-ACE-]

Ganon's U-smash is usually safe on whiff especially assuming your opponent is in the air as you do it, since it is very unwise for most characters to challenge it directly.

Although usmash has the lowest cooldown time of all of Ganon's smash attacks but it's still not guaranteed "safe" on whiff. People that are familiar with Ganon/his usmash will usually get a free approach on you when you miss (few exceptions, platforms).

If your opponent knows how to space around your aerials and tilts, you're probably in for an uphill battle no matter the matchup.

Only if you become predictable.

The thing that makes F-smash GODLY useful is how it usually requires a completely different spacing counter than all your other moves. Well...screw Falco. But seriously, F-smash is legit. Situational yes, but the situations it is good in, it's EXCELLENT.

What do you mean by a different spacing? Its killing power is only impressive vs floaties, and it's usually difficult to set up. You get some damage on them, but you can't follow up... and of course if you miss, you're dead or close to it.

I mean watch how many times SilentSpectre changes the momentum of a match with F-smash. Granted Ganon doesn't have Falcon's mobility, but the principle of use remains the same. Ganon is a character who can create legit baiting situations very easily, and F-smash is an EXCELLENT bait punisher.

There's the mobility thing, which is big, and there's also the fact that falcon's fsmash is more practical since it sends his opponents offstage. Ganon's fsmash sends people almost straight up, and is pointless unless they are at ko% (which actually isn't very low if they can DI).

You sooo can combo from an usmash at low % against FFers into nair/uair and stuff. Even against non FFers the position it puts them in makes it easier for you to continue with strings. Its also pretty usable to use Usmash against ppl who double jump above you trying to bait you. There really isn't much they can do to challenge it so you can whiff as they back off. But if you catch someone without their double jump you can do massive damage because you countered with a usmash. .

Also, sometimes elaborate combos are worse than landing some smashes. Especially in platform situations, you can do double usmash and stuff like that leading up to 60% with three moves. I personally think that Usmash is one of the safest things you can do under the platform. It deals good shield stuff and is pretty safe if they are on the platform even if you miss.

I'm not in it for elaborate combos. I look at it as trying to get your opponent offstage as soon as possible, since by the time you land 2 hits on them they're more than ready lol (unless you can cg). I just don't see where the reward comes anywhere close to the risk involved. Sure there are times when it's not very risky (platform stuff like you mentioned is legit as a mixup). And sure, if you dair a fox at 55% or so on yoshi's island and he doesn't DI, charge usmash and let 'er rip! That's a sick KO but I mean how often is your opponent not going to DI a dair at that exact percent range? Aside from the outer knockback that usmash's lowest hitbox exhibits (which is underused actually imo), usmash won't be helping you get your opponent offstage and they never RARELY combo into anything. I don't want you to think that I never use usmash, I just feel like there is almost always a safer and more effective way to go about things, unless maybe if you're under a platform.

Another is tech chasing with usmash. If you predict it right they can tech right into a charge crouch usmash. If they don't roll in then release the usmash and you should still be able to advance before they are out of their tech.

I dunno if you'll always be able to follow up if you go for a usmash techchase and guess incorrectly...

Here is the best time I've ever used Fsmash. I was facing Jash's ylink and he did a ledge hop that I counter with my fsmash and this lead to a fair because he had no jumps. I killed him with two moves from 20%. I would say fsmash is the best when used to counter ledge stuff but it is usable elsewhere.

The big issue here is that you caught him out of a ledgehop. The fact that you did it with a move so slow means you probably had a really good read. It's just so much riskier than a sh fair, which would have accomplished the same thing basically...

 

[DippnDots]

I have this fake out i've been using quite a bit, and it even worked on darkrain (once lol). Down throw, dash forward, but after you take the first step of your dash animation, pivot around and shffl a dair so you land where they would be if they tech roll into you.

I'm also a huge fan of grabbing after a dair (while you can at least), and dont forget to get your grab hits in, every percent counts.

 

[kupo15]

I dunno if you'll always be able to follow up if you go for a usmash techchase and guess incorrectly...

Well depends. I would only charge the usmash if we are 1/3 the way from either edge and i'm towards the middle. That way if they roll backwards they are at a really tough position at the edge in which case I can pressure with a fair after the missed usmash

The big issue here is that you caught him out of a ledgehop. The fact that you did it with a move so slow means you probably had a really good read. It's just so much riskier than a sh fair, which would have accomplished the same thing basically...

I don't know if the fair would have worked. Part of it was reaction and he was doing a ledge hop rang so I think doing the fair would have been too slow. In fact they are both equally as slow

Fsmash starts on frame 20
Usable Fair starts on 15 plus the 5 frame jump lag

But in this situation the Fsmash is the safer option because I'm grounded so I can CC my fsmash if I mess up but I would be in a bad situation if I got hit out of my fair with the rang.

Also, if you get a good read with charging the fsmash, it becomes a 13 frame move.


Smashes are definitely hard to pull off in singles. Even though its possible in singles I think it works very well and easier in doubles. Yesterday I did a fully charged crotch box on fox. It was sweet.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

you're not ccing unless you're actually crouching.

however, the DI down effect for a double stick tech may have been useful

 

[kupo15]

you're not ccing unless you're actually crouching.

however, the DI down effect for a double stick tech may have been useful

100% not true.

CCing has nothing to do with the actual crouch animation which makes "CC" a misnomer. CC is done because of ASDI down which forces a collision with ground. Because the colliding with the floor cancels hitstun and you are holding down, you automatically go into a crouch if the KB is below the tumble threshold otherwise you will instantly bounce on the floor. If the move is too powerful that it overcomes ASDI, you will not be able to CC.

In other news, its good to note that you can Dsmash/Fsmash a missed tech on reaction

 

[Divinokage]

CC is definitely situational as well.. you need to have good reaction time to see what move comes at you and then you can throw out a CC to aerial or tilts.

 

[X1-12]

100% not true.

CCing has nothing to do with the actual crouch animation which makes "CC" a misnomer. CC is done because of ASDI down which forces a collision with ground. Because the colliding with the floor cancels hitstun and you are holding down, you automatically go into a crouch if the KB is below the tumble threshold otherwise you will instantly bounce on the floor. If the move is too powerful that it overcomes ASDI, you will not be able to CC.

In other news, its good to note that you can Dsmash/Fsmash a missed tech on reaction

You're wrong about CC'ing here I believe, the crouch animation does have an effect, check this:

Falcon vs ganon. Get the ganon to 30% (2 stomps does this)

Firstly crouch as the ganon then get F-smashed by the falcon (C-stick to prevent charge) You will remain grounded and crouching.

kill both to un-stale and repeat, this time ganon at 30%, taunt and hold down on the stick. Get F-smashed and you will fall over.

 

[kupo15]

If you fall over then you did crouch cancel. Falling over is just a different form of CCing. And you picked a terrible move as an example btw because the taunt floats you in the air when you are hit so its no wonder why it didn't work.

The distinction that I am making is that you need to be grounded and holding down to CC which can be achieved with any move like the Fsmash example. CCing does not have to be done through the crouch animation alone. Heck, you can even throw out a utilt to force someone to knee you at low % or something but its a trap because hidden in that utilt is a CC waiting to start a combo.

 

[-ACE-]

Crouch canceling is comprised of 2 elements.

1. Crouching itself reduces hitlag by 50%

2. Holding down buffers ASDI down to keep you grounded.

Holding C-down gives you the ASDI down but not the reduction in hitlag, so it is not the same as a CC.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

the utilt cc will not work. You will not cc jab them, you will just DI down, right in front of them, for a grab.

 

[kupo15]

I decided to test it and I think we are both right. I was able to CC a falcon punch at 0 from a crouch. However, trying to do the same from a utilt caused me to get knocked down which is still a type of CC otherwise I would have had WC DI on the punch.

On the other hand. There was no difference between CCing a falcon kick from a crouch vs utilt. If there is a hitlag difference then I'll believe you but I didn't get knocked down.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

all we're saying is that theres a difference between crouch canceling and DI/ASDI down.

being knocked down vs not knocked down is one of the differences. the thresholds for them are significantly different, i believe.

falcon kick will like...never knock you down anyway.

 

[Linguini]

Crouch canceling is comprised of 2 elements.

1. Crouching itself reduces hitlag by 50%

2. Holding down buffers ASDI down to keep you grounded.

Holding C-down gives you the ASDI down but not the reduction in hitlag, so it is not the same as a CC.

Pretty much ends the argument lol.

ASDI is pretty sick with ganon and I encourage every ganon player to learn how to use it effectively.

Ive been branded "the worlds gayest crouch canceler" against almost everyone ive played consistently haha. Interestingly, it's mostly just really precise ASDI. This allows ganon to execute quick counterattack grabs, jabs, dtilts, and other useful moves.

BTW i'm in the process of recording new vids and making a combo video.

 

[Divinokage]

Here we go with the south bias again lol.

 

[-ACE-]

BTW i'm in the process of recording new vids and making a combo video.

Hell yeah.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

OH **** crouching reduces hitlag?

I think I forgot this fact.

now to go back to doing rising (cc) jabs vs falcon and fox.

 

[-ACE-]

OH **** crouching reduces hitlag?

I think I forgot this fact.

now to go back to doing rising (cc) jabs vs falcon and fox.

Didn't magus say you always have enough frames to beat fox's nair > shine approach with cc jab? I can't remember, I doubt I'll be getting consistent with that any time soon lol, I'll keep spamming roll/trying to ps.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

a smart fox will notice if you cc jab more than twice, and then start dairing...but yeah, I think he did say that technically it's always possible that after a nair, ganon can squeeze a jab in.

 

[Vyzor]

Hey guys, just wondering, what are Ganondorf's best smashes? As in which are most effective and useful.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

go back two pages.

more discussions about ganons smashes than have ever existed before are there.

basically they're all pretty dang situational.

 

[Palpi]

I love ganon's dsmash...but I never use it lol

 

[Linjishu]

How necessary is it to SHFFL uair and bair? It seems like whenever I don't fastfall or l-cancel them, they virtually autocancel and the hitboxes are in the air longer this way. I believe I read a post that also said SHFFLing fair also reduces the time its hitboxes are out and often the effective range of the move. Anyways, since uair and bair have such low lag already, what do you guys think? To me it seems like regular shorthop + uair/bair (ASAP) > short hop + uair/bair + ff/l-cancel.

 

[Bl@ckChris]

usually, the hitboxes you want for both uair and bair are the initial hitboxes. if they hit, you'll want to be back on the ground to be able to do something else. if they miss, you'll also probably want to get back on the ground and do something.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

can't wait 2 see that vid guini.

 

[Palpi]

I am thinking of using Ganon against only Marth and I feel like Marth is easy to hit with walk off fairs or walk off jumping uairs, no idea what to call it

 

[DippnDots]

edgeguarding

 

[Palpi]

Tenawesomes

 

[Linguini]

can't wait 2 see that vid guini.

N****, please tell me your'e going to rom