'How to deal with specific enemy moves' Discussion - Discussion 42: IC Grab

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Spindashes suck. ^_^

They're only useful if you use them to PUNISH. Landing lag, attack lag, whatever. If a Sonic throws them out randomly just do...whatever. He'll probably lose out. If he uses them CORRECTLY the idea is to smack you out of lag when you CAN'T do anything about it. Basically stick to a floaty game and he'll RARELY have the oppurtunity to use them. Floaty Peach ***** Sonic. Sad but true. T_T

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

They can still be used to throw people off (SD cancelling and ASC cancelling for example). Timing a spin dash to hit Peach after she uses Fair can also work remember

It's still important to discuss imo because if you don't know what you're doing vs them, then it can screw you up horribly...

...also if you have super bad eyesight, you might mistake a Down Smash for a Spin Charge because they look so similar!! D: The horror!

 

[TigerWoods]

I need help here.. I get utterly destroyed by a good sonic. I've only played one sonic before. >_>

Er, I constantly get tricked into trying to fair him, and by the time I do hes on the other side of the screen >_>

Anyway JigglyZelda says ftilt destroys him... have yet to try out my newfound infomation yet...

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I fear jabs more than Ftilts. Dash attack too. Ftilt doesn't really bother me much.

 

[Villi]

Yeah, dairs and jabs are good momentum stoppers. If he homing attacks your shield, up air out of shield. Spin dash is the same except he can also end up behind you -- you can get that one with a double jumped bair or up air. You have to predict him to get any really good punishment in. Keep up pressure with turnips, too.

 

[SleeplessInKyoto]

Well, if anyone should be answering this question, it should be YOU rick seeing as how you main Sonic as well xD

Well, i'll start off with the Down+B - usually thats done on the ground and used like Yoshi's eggrolling to pressurise you. Fortunately, Peach can simply float to avoid it, and Dair stops his spinning right in his tracks. I prefer using Toad to force Sonic's to either 1. Hit my Toad and get a face full of spores, 2. Force their spin to go in the other direction (buying me time to pull out a turnip). You can use turnips as well i believe.

The homing spin attack is a lot trickier. The comparison i love to make is with Zelda's Fireball. Its something that requires the same sort of timing and takes time to defend but once you know how to do, you never forget it. The key thing with Sonic's homing attack is pay attention to the sound. Once the spinning noise hits the highest pitch note, then spotdodge or shield. Unless i'm mistaken, Sonic's cannot cancel this animation until the attack is over. Which means it always takes the same time to charge and to execute. If you learn this timing, you can spotdodge it in time. It just takes practice.

Also can we do Pit's angel ring next (Side+B) "hayayya!" kthxbai.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Well, i'll start off with the Down+B - usually thats done on the ground and used like Yoshi's eggrolling to pressurise you.

Actually Down B is usually done in the air since hold forward during it grants extra hits.

Fortunately, Peach can simply float to avoid it, and Dair stops his spinning right in his tracks. I prefer using Toad to force Sonic's to either 1. Hit my Toad and get a face full of spores, 2. Force their spin to go in the other direction (buying me time to pull out a turnip). You can use turnips as well i believe.

Tru that. Almost ANYTHING will knock him out of his spins.

The homing spin attack is a lot trickier. The comparison i love to make is with Zelda's Fireball. Its something that requires the same sort of timing and takes time to defend but once you know how to do, you never forget it. The key thing with Sonic's homing attack is pay attention to the sound. Once the spinning noise hits the highest pitch note, then spotdodge or shield. Unless i'm mistaken, Sonic's cannot cancel this animation until the attack is over. Which means it always takes the same time to charge and to execute. If you learn this timing, you can spotdodge it in time. It just takes practice.

He can't stop it during the start up, HOWEVER we CAN hit B and make it let loose early making your sound idea not so great.... But most Sonics think it's useless and won't typically throw it out all that often.


Not mentioned is Side B. It has invincibility during the initial hop but when it lands it becomes a SDR (Spin Dash Roll) and has the same properties as the Down B traveling along the ground. It's mostly used when the opponent is making an attack and we want to pass through it.


His dash attack is fairly weak. It's used to punish and maybe hit you when you're bouncing from a missed Tech. It's useful since every bit helps Sonic but it's nothing overwhelming. If he uses it right... it's gonna hit you. If he throws it out you can simply Dsmash. Sucks to be Sonic. :/

Dsmash takes so long you can shield and punish however you want. It's rather difficult to use without being obvious. The only times I get good use with it are when I'm near the edge since it's range gets "increased" and can trick you and if we're close enough we'll do it during landing lag/missed tech instead of the dash.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Lol I might main Sonic but if I just did this without letting others contribute, that wou,d be silly
No one has mentioned Nair yet...

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Ummm... Peaches or Sonics?

Peaches nair is ****! I love it to death. Good knockout power. Good priority. GREAT spammability if need be.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Peachs Nair

It tears spindashes apart it's not even funny. Nair is great vs Sonic - screw Fair, that pales in comparision to Nair when fighting Sonic

 

[Tenki]

Jab. :[

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Hup CHAAA!

<3 you too Tenki

Ooo I should put Peach Bomber in there aswell

Edit: So as not to double post, the next move by request is Pit's Side B. I used to kick myself whenever I Toaded this. Literally. This move is annoying. I know you can DI behind it but...hmmm

Discuss away!

 

[SleeplessInKyoto]

I'd like to hear other people's views on this before i share mine xD i fight 2 pit mainers so i know this matchup fairly well.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Go go go

And btw, whoever posted the advice about airdodging Samus' Zair ---> Turnip throw/Glide Toss...I ****ing love you

 

[goodkid]

DI, behind Pit and punish, or I think d-tilt will cancel it out or hit him, not sure

 

[deepseadiva]

Though I've always assumed it was due to either lag or stupidity, a Pit's sideb always seems to last long enough for me to simply jump over and bair.

 

[TigerWoods]

Toad it =X

 

[BentoBox]

Quarter-circle DI!

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Toad it =X

NOOOOOO

It has REFLECTING properties. Toading it is the last thing you want to do D:

I'll do the write up soon unless anyone has anything else to add
Anyone got any requests? I'm running out of specific move ideas D:

 

[TigerWoods]

NOOOOOO

It has REFLECTING properties. Toading it is the last thing you want to do D:

I'll do the write up soon unless anyone has anything else to add
Anyone got any requests? I'm running out of specific move ideas D:

Aww.. You blew it. I wanted someone to try it mid match

In all seriousness though I just hop behind and hit pit... or dair him...

 

[Airgemini]

Do ZSS's Side B or Paralyzer next.

 

[PaintedGhost]

For pit's side B, simply don't get hit by it and punish it. I don't think there is anything else to do. If you do happen to get caught in it SDI up and away or quarter circle DI.

 

[Villi]

I don't see this move a lot. When it happens, it usually hits my shield so I wait for it to push me away with no harm done and proceed to dair him. Humm... You can prolly fair through it if he misses you.

 

[SleeplessInKyoto]

Quarter Circle DI is the best way to deal with this move if you can pull it off. Get behind Pit and they'll never see it coming.

Of course, the most reliable way of dealing with this move is probably a floating Dair or a turnip drop from above. The dangerous thing about this move is that the top of the circle has a particularly large hitbox. If you try to float over it, it can sometimes catch you at its very tip. Which is dangerous.

Make sure you float high over it!

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Why bother going over it? Just Fsmash him through it. Sonic can does it andz you cans too!

 

[SleeplessInKyoto]

Well, F-Smash needs you to be spaced properly. Remember we have the frying pan and the tennis racket both of which have bad range+knockback. Dair sets you up for potential combos as well.

 

[PrepareYourself]

Toad?

DON'T!

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I'm kind of running out of ideas now...

Do not worry though! I do have an idea for number 20 All I can say is that the next move might be as deadly as our tenth discussion... D:


Up next is the aptly named bair of Mr. Game and Watch courtesy of Praxis - the Turtle of DOOM. Don't forget, this move has actually already been covered ages ago in this thread which can be found here
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=179020

Discuss away!

 

[TigerWoods]

Turnips work? I really haven't seen a counter to this move yet... besides shielding....

Still it wrecks your shield...

 

[Villi]

Shields grow back fast. Pit really lacks the tools to follow up on shield pressure, anyway.

 

[TigerWoods]

Villi.. were talking G&W bair here...

 

[Villi]

Oh, well G&W does. :3

 

[PaintedGhost]

For a G&W Bair you should be spacing Fairs (but not spamming). I would short hop back, and then double jump forward with a Fair.

 

[SleeplessInKyoto]

I still havent found out a counter to the friggin turtle yet. All i do is try to float over it if i see it coming, but for the most part, i'm baffled.

 

[Kataefi]

Here's some handy stuff from your beloved sister thread over at the Zelda boards ^^

GW's turtle lasts for 39 frames, so it's a committed approach. The move is still active even upon hitting the ground so don't drop your shield too early.

Also note that GW can DI back and stop his inertia when RARing with Bair. If you get caught in the turtle, SDI up and away and try to use an aerial to punish GW.

And since I started examining G&W´s Bair, I decided to test if I could find any way to punish it. What I came up was pretty reliable solution for shieldpoking. It´s very simple: if she shielded the beginning of the attack and spotdodged when G&W was closer to ground, she avoided being hit completely and could even occasionally punish with guaranteed smash before G&W got out of the lag.

How to deal with G&W's B-air:

- Space a move REALLY well.
- SDI up and jump away from him or N-air if you're close enough.
- If he spaces it REALLY badly, you can hit him out of shield if you don't get poked.

That's really it.

It's quite general information really... hope it helps!

 

[PrepareYourself]

Requesting ZSS Armor pieces next. Hoping that counts as a move.

 

[TigerWoods]

Requesting ZSS Armor pieces next. Hoping that counts as a move.

I guess he could change "moves" to "annoying techniques" to satisfy your taste. But yes the Armor Pieces are a bugger in the beginning...


Anyway katefi's info is pretty useful, although I think peach's smashes are too slow to land out of shield...

Am I right??

 

[PaintedGhost]

I guess he could change "moves" to "annoying techniques" to satisfy your taste. But yes the Armor Pieces are a bugger in the beginning...


Anyway katefi's info is pretty useful, although I think peach's smashes are too slow to land out of shield...

Am I right??

You could insta float and nair. and follow up with something. I'm pretty sure it's fast enough

 

[Eddie G]

Against GnW's bair.

1. Toad (sparingly)

2. shield then punish with shieldgrabs or OoS Dair/Nair (if still in range of course)

3. sh back then punish with Dair from overhead or an occasional Fair if his percentage is a little higher.

4. if he's dropping from a higher diagonal angle, perhaps an u-tilt would tear through the approach (still haven't tested this myself, can someone answer this for me?)

5. also, if they're trying to drop one on me from a little higher up, I'll dash in the opposite direction and space a grounded Bair when his attack ends to another sh or full jumped Bair depending on their percentage. (really risky, a tad flashy, but decent enough to sneak in there once in a while)

6. if you're armed with a turnip and they're Bairing from higher up, either glide toss forward, glide toss forward/throwing up, or reverse glide toss in their direction to travel underneath then proceed to punish if the opportunity is still present.

7. roll backwards, lol.

Hope this helps ^.^

 

[Morrigan]

Toad? I thought his Bair could eat the spores