'How to deal with specific enemy moves' Discussion - Discussion 42: IC Grab

[Airgemini]

Ness's is easy if he's using PkT1 just sheild grab it.

Also, I believe the Lucas and Ness boards refer to PkT in two different ways.

PkT1 - when they use it as a projectile.

PkT2- when they use it on themselves to launch themselves forward.

 

[deepseadiva]

Ness's is easy if he's using PkT1 just sheild grab it.

On the ground, yes. I'm talking about when I'm returning from high up.

The Ness boards have also discovered this:

I don't go there anymore.

 

[Airgemini]

Lucas's PkT isnt as deadly as Ness's but its way easier to use.

 

[Villi]

I don't have this problem much with the PKT1... You can break it by hitting the head with an aerial. Try Toading it if you can't get passed him trying to tail whip you.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I don't have this problem much with the PKT1... You can break it by hitting the head with an aerial. Try Toading it if you can't get passed him trying to tail whip you.

*clap clap* :D

Nair strikes again

Rofl Meno, that Ness thing is hilarious

 

[deepseadiva]

Nair... of course...

 

[PaintedGhost]

Lol nair has wicked priority, it goes through Samus's missiles.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

A Challenge!

Neeeeext

This might looka bit odd. The idea of this discussion is not to talk about all the things Olimar can do with his Pikmin (we might as well cover the match up if that's the case ) but rather, discuss what properties each Pikmin has. I imagine this won't take long but hey who cares

Also, I have a challenge for you all If you have bothered to read the discussion intros for all the moves covered so far, you might notice that some (not all) have references to various games and quotes associated with them. My challenge is this - Can you find them all? I know it's nothing special and some are really very obvious but...it's just for a bit of a laugh

Discuss away!

 

[Airgemini]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185696

Has EVERYTHING you need to know about them.

 

[deepseadiva]

I love the ******'s little slaves.

So, I have decent Pikmin knowledge to know that the Olimars like using the different colors for different purposes.

Red - Good for aerials
Yellow - Extra hitstun and larger hitboxes, good for aerials and upsmash
Blue - Very long grab range, used for a KOing backthrow around 130%
Purple - Very powerful as a KO move as an upsmash and uthrow around 90%, very solid projectile if thrown
White - Kinda weak and used primarily for latching

With this, you can actually try to predict the Olimar's moves if you watch the line closely.

If you actually get latched on, while you can rid of it via nair or something, you can actually use Toad's spores on command.

Otherwise, dair and bomber handle them just fine.

 

[Airgemini]

Also,

Red - Fire properties to it, immune to fire attacks.
Blue - Immune to water
Yellow - Immune to electricity
White - Does the most damage when thrown as his Side B, live the shortest
Purple - Heavy, has most knockback

 

[XZA143]

I love the ******'s little slaves.

So, I have decent Pikmin knowledge to know that the Olimars like using the different colors for different purposes.

Red - Good for aerials
Yellow - Extra hitstun and larger hitboxes, good for aerials and upsmash
Blue - Very long grab range, used for a KOing backthrow around 130%
Purple - Very powerful as a KO move as an upsmash and uthrow around 90%, very solid projectile if thrown
White - Kinda weak and used primarily for latching

With this, you can actually try to predict the Olimar's moves if you watch the line closely.

If you actually get latched on, while you can rid of it via nair or something, you can actually use Toad's spores on command.

Otherwise, dair and bomber handle them just fine.

Thats pretty much the gist of it. Try not to get grabbed as well, especially if you have a white latched on to you. Speaking of whites, they go farther then any other pikmin when thrown. The yellows also travel in an arc when thrown, which can help Olimar land them on opponents who hang on the ledge for too long.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Woot heya X

Onto to the next move...

I think this needs no introduction. The title in my opinion, sums it up quite nicely

Discuss away!

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Who wants to play dittos though? XD

Seriously though. Just outPeach them. What else is there? Peaches fair has good range I hear.

 

[Xyless]

I had decent success at the last tournament I was at against a Peach ditto (it was in doubles, but still, him and I faced off most of the time). All I did was think ahead of the game and, instead of floating at the normal height, I floated at double the height, thus putting me at Peach's floating head height. From there, I just had to easily avoid the up air, then punish into a down air, drop the float, follow up with another down air, then jump into a floating down air while they're still grounded. Fairing works too.

Also, if you're on the ground, ftilt should protect you somewhat, but that's about it.

 

[White-Peach]

I've been trying to record matches (via the wii console thing) vs my little brother (we both play peach) but he wont let me

I'll try to sum it up as best I can~

This is a match where you'll spare no expense with your FAir. And slaps. Spaced FAirs to slaps (you need both or the other Peach WILL slap you) will crash into sheilds with like a broken record. Everything attack and counterattack that isnt completely solid will be broken with NAir or slaps. Whoever has the better spacing, COMBINED with the most solid approach and defense, will win the match.

Powershield her FAir and score a grab, or grab her right after her first slap. This is the only way to break that approach. Otherwise move away and regroup. You can counterattack with your own FAir>Slaps. This is a dangerous game

You can score free damage by running into thrown turnips and toading them. Learn the spacing where she cant do run/float away from the spores she triggers.

If you're fast, you can edgeguard her upwards parasol by grabbing the ledge as she pops up, dropping with invincibility, and NAiring her. The window is incredibly small, and you have to hit her before she grabs it on the way up. The invincibility frames cover your NAir as you bonk her away. Score it and you get extra edgeguard hits for more damage.

By now, you should be aware of my love for stutter-stepped fsmashes. Space and respace with these. Use them defensively to counter approaches and for last-second changes in position to throw them off. Cover misses and clanks with slaps.

Try and force her to recover low by throwing turnips into the air (at least 2) and jumping up to meet her with UAirs if she stays high. Space them, so that if she dodges, you can NAir/BAir her lag.

Pull turnips facing backwards (B reversal?) so if she tries to attack you~ you can shield and be in the perfect state for OOS BAir (and subsequent combo/chase)

When she's overhead and using FAir defensively (because you're just a ***** of a peach and wont give her a second to breathe) try hyphen-upsmashing her.

Feign approaches with glidetosses, and attacks with slaps.

Dont mess around off the ledge anywhere that peach can reach you, because you will die to a FAir. (This means no sideBs, no unecessary attacks.)

With peach, its never the first attack that gets you, its the trap you fall into thereafter

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

The sound of Fair is stuck in my head for hours after I've played Peach dittos

*shudder*

 

[Xyless]

I've been trying to record matches (via the wii console thing) vs my little brother (we both play peach) but he wont let me

I'll try to sum it up as best I can~

This is a match where you'll spare no expense with your FAir. And slaps. Spaced FAirs to slaps (you need both or the other Peach WILL slap you) will crash into sheilds with like a broken record. Everything attack and counterattack that isnt completely solid will be broken with NAir or slaps. Whoever has the better spacing, COMBINED with the most solid approach and defense, will win the match.

Powershield her FAir and score a grab, or grab her right after her first slap. This is the only way to break that approach. Otherwise move away and regroup. You can counterattack with your own FAir>Slaps. This is a dangerous game

You can score free damage by running into thrown turnips and toading them. Learn the spacing where she cant do run/float away from the spores she triggers.

If you're fast, you can edgeguard her upwards parasol by grabbing the ledge as she pops up, dropping with invincibility, and NAiring her. The window is incredibly small, and you have to hit her before she grabs it on the way up. The invincibility frames cover your NAir as you bonk her away. Score it and you get extra edgeguard hits for more damage.

By now, you should be aware of my love for stutter-stepped fsmashes. Space and respace with these. Use them defensively to counter approaches and for last-second changes in position to throw them off. Cover misses and clanks with slaps.

Try and force her to recover low by throwing turnips into the air (at least 2) and jumping up to meet her with UAirs if she stays high. Space them, so that if she dodges, you can NAir/BAir her lag.

Pull turnips facing backwards (B reversal?) so if she tries to attack you~ you can shield and be in the perfect state for OOS BAir (and subsequent combo/chase)

When she's overhead and using FAir defensively (because you're just a ***** of a peach and wont give her a second to breathe) try hyphen-upsmashing her.

Feign approaches with glidetosses, and attacks with slaps.

Dont mess around off the ledge anywhere that peach can reach you, because you will die to a FAir. (This means no sideBs, no unecessary attacks.)

With peach, its never the first attack that gets you, its the trap you fall into thereafter

Nothing on here invoves her dAir, so I'll just ignore it.

 

[White-Peach]

Her DAir wont serve you well because she's got the best UTilt ever, and delicious OOS attacks to knock her out of DAir. Break her legs with FAir

I only use it at low%, where the chance of a short combo outweighs the risk of a counterattack.

 

[Xyless]

Yeah, I assumed we were talking at low %. Otherwise, I keep to the ground against most Peaches (or fairs like crazy).

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Really, Peach's Dair is not the biggest issue in dittos. It's very ineffective because Peach is so floaty and light, not to mention she can simply Toad/Up Tilt/F Tilt it. Though it is funny to Smash DI out of your opponent's Floating Dair and then start one yourself

I'll write it up soon. Anyone got anymore to add? And does anyone have any suggestions? I have Yoshi's Egg throw and Sheik's Dash attack...I think Ivsyaur's Bair was mentioned at some point (although I never really get to play PKT)...any move anyone is finding paticularly annoying?

 

[Airgemini]

It's very ineffective because Peach is so floaty and light, not to mention she can simply Toad

Actually, I dont think this is a good idea. Almost EVERYTIME I Toad, the kicks of her Dair outprioritize the spores and hit me.


I request spotdodges!!! They are really annoying me lately! I do an attack, they spot dodge, and hit me with a Dmash. Help!

 

[Xyless]

Also, Toad doesn't protect Peach when the attack is directly from above, which most of the Peach dAirs come from.

 

[XZA143]

Really, Peach's Dair is not the biggest issue in dittos. It's very ineffective because Peach is so floaty and light, not to mention she can simply Toad/Up Tilt/F Tilt it. Though it is funny to Smash DI out of your opponent's Floating Dair and then start one yourself

I'll write it up soon. Anyone got anymore to add? And does anyone have any suggestions? I have Yoshi's Egg throw and Sheik's Dash attack...I think Ivsyaur's Bair was mentioned at some point (although I never really get to play PKT)...any move anyone is finding paticularly annoying?

Whats good Rick? Told you I'd stop by

Those suggestions are pretty good. What comes to mind now are Falco's laser or either of Rob's projectiles.

 

[Ravin]

Whats good Rick? Told you I'd stop by

Those suggestions are pretty good. What comes to mind now are Falco's laser or either of Rob's projectiles.

Dont forget Pew pew and missiles :O

Zair too.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Suggestions galore! Should have plenty to do now

Regarding Falco's Lasers - I don't really want to do that because Dark.Pch has already written a guide on it which can be found here

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175286

If you do happen to be really stuck with Falco's Lasers, then we can discuss them if you are in dire need of help

By request, up next is something everyone can do - Spotdodging. Incredibly helpful but equally incredibly annoying when someone uses it over and over again. Spotdoding can give your opponent the chance to hit you with a whole host of things. The most common follow up is either a Jab to get you away or a D Smash to get you away or rack up damage...or KO if you're Meta Knight

Discuss away!

 

[deepseadiva]

Peach is, like, built to kill spotdodgers. They hate late and multi-hitting moves.

Short hop dairs and dsmash handle them well.

And going for fake outs with Peach bomber and dtilt works on occasion as a "fall-back mix up."

 

[Gea]

Dairs alone stop spotdodging. Seriously. That should be end of discussion.

 

[Kinzer]

Her DAir wont serve you well because she's got the best UTilt ever.

I always thought Snake had a better UTilt...

 

[White-Peach]

Snake's is the best offensively, peach's is the best defensively :3

ontopic~

Slaps. I'm going to get a recorder and just have buttons that say [Slaps] and [Stutter-Stepped FSmashes] Just keep slapping (spaced) and combat spot dodgers by delaying that 2nd slap to hit them after they dodge the first. If you're stringing moves together, cover the gaps with slaps~ (rhyme~)

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Try attacking Peach from above and her Up Tilt will stop it if timed correctly. This goes for just about everything anyone can throw at her

Up next, we have ROB's projectiles. Talk about annoying. I will say this though - you can't throw items whilst floating. But you knew that already didn't you?

Discuss away!

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Ehem...


Discuss away!!

 

[deepseadiva]

Take the gyro hostage.

And avoid Brinstar if you're having problems with it. It'll float on top the lava and keep coming back up. =___=

 

[Xyless]

I have so much experience with this, since my roommate mains ROB. The best thing to do is to keep ahold of the gyro while you use aerials, since half of ROB's battle stems from using the gyros as transportation for comboing (specifically sliding dsmashes). The gyro is more difficult to grab than, say, the bananas. Also, depending on the stage, it may be very difficult for either side to pick up the gyro (stages like Yoshi's Island, for example, with curves).

Be careful when the gyro is thrown though, since it has a higher arc than other items, so if you plan on floating to the ROB player, be sure to jump higher than you normally do.

The laser by itself isn't that big of a deal, just make sure you watch, since it does have a bit of lag before it starts.

 

[White-Peach]

And avoid Brinstar if you're having problems with it. It'll float on top the lava and keep coming back up. =___=

That sounds like a perfect reason to take the gyro and dump it into the lava/acid. You've removed it from the field where ROB cant get it, yet it doesnt disappear until the stage decides it so, so ROB cant pull another one.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Legitimate question here since I don't get to play ROB very often - How long does it take for him to charge his Robo Beam to the different stages? And are you better off trying to Perfect sheild it, regular sheild it or spotdodge?

 

[Xyless]

That sounds like a perfect reason to take the gyro and dump it into the lava/acid. You've removed it from the field where ROB cant get it, yet it doesnt disappear until the stage decides it so, so ROB cant pull another one.

Yeah, this is a major pain to ROB players, especially on Norfair (where the lava never leaves). If the stages are legal, then use them and abuse them.

To reiterate, Norfair will gimp ROB's gyro (thus, most ROB players' playstyle) to no end.

 

[Xyless]

Legitimate question here since I don't get to play ROB very often - How long does it take for him to charge his Robo Beam to the different stages? And are you better off trying to Perfect sheild it, regular sheild it or spotdodge?

I don't understand the first question, but I always either regular shield or spotdodge. Well, assuming I don't perfect shield anyway.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

By different stages, I mean the different kind of beams he can fire e.g. If he charges it longer, he shoots a harder-hitter beam right?

 

[Xyless]

Ah, right.

At 0 seconds recharge, is a close range attack with low knockback.
At 1 second recharge, is a fast, thin laser that can be angled and does low damage.
At 20 seconds recharge, is a slower, thick laser that does decent damage and can be used as a KO move.


From my experience, ROBs have no problem spamming the weaker one, since many are impatient and don't want to wait the 20 seconds for the vastly stronger (and slower) beam. You should be more worried about the powerful one though.