'How to deal with specific enemy moves' Discussion - Discussion 42: IC Grab

[Eddie G]

Toad? I thought his Bair could eat the spores

Ah yes, my mistake. I was speaking out of a few chance shots that I actually landed through GnW's bair with the toad, but that was as his move was nearly ending or my spores were hitting him from underneath. Generally a bad choice though, so I apologize for that suggestion.

 

[Praxis]

OK, this is my expertise! I regularly fight with a very good G&W.

The first thing to remember is that Bair has a landing hitbox. When G&W touches the ground, even if the move appears to be finished, an extra hitbox pops out. So remember to hold your shield for longer than usual! Unfortunately, as a result of this, it's extremely difficult to punish because you get pushed back when the landing hitbox hits your shield.


There's several options for punishing turtle, but only one of them is consistent for any setup and it requires forethought, so it's vital to be prepared for any situation.

1) If he spaces Bair properly horizontally to prevent you from punishing it OOS, you can ftilt him as he comes in. The timing is very close, but it works!

2) If he starts spacing bair high, you can utilt or even up-B I think. I usually just roll back, or run into it with shield so I can dash attack him afterwards because he's too close.

3) If he dives too deep into your shield you can shield grab him just before he hits the ground. Don't even bother trying unless you have the timing down really well.

4) If he spaces it wrong to avoid punishment (note that G&W may DELIBERATELY space wrong so that you can't ftilt him), you can toad. If he spaced it right, however, it'll eat the toad.

5) My special trick- I call this shield turnip camping. Pull a turnip, and let G&W bair your shield. AFTER the landing hitbox lands, throw the turnip. Since throwing an item drops your shield, you can use turnips out of shield faster than almost any other attack. This works pretty consistently, and you can sometimes dash attack him too. However, you have to have the turnip pulled in advance.

Since you can, however, use turnips to punish most of G&W's aerials AND ground attacks, camping G&W with turnips and the shield proves surprisingly effective.

 

[Praxis]

Against GnW's bair.

1. Toad (sparingly)

2. shield then punish with shieldgrabs or OoS Dair/Nair (if still in range of course)

If G&W is spacing correctly, this will not work. Ever.

4. if he's dropping from a higher diagonal angle, perhaps an u-tilt would tear through the approach (still haven't tested this myself, can someone answer this for me?)

5. also, if they're trying to drop one on me from a little higher up, I'll dash in the opposite direction and space a grounded Bair when his attack ends to another sh or full jumped Bair depending on their percentage. (really risky, a tad flashy, but decent enough to sneak in there once in a while)

6. if you're armed with a turnip and they're Bairing from higher up, either glide toss forward, glide toss forward/throwing up, or reverse glide toss in their direction to travel underneath then proceed to punish if the opportunity is still present.

G&W will rarely if ever approach from high up though.

Rolling backwards is very often the best solution, unless you have a turnip pulled or he spaced it so you can ftilt.

 

[Niko_K]

I actually completely agree with everything King Beef just said.

 

[Praxis]

I actually completely agree with everything King Beef just said.

Punish nair OOS with Nair? Are you kidding? 0.o I agree with everything else but that.

I mean, assuming the G&W spaces. If he's horribly sloppy that'll work xD But normally he won't be close enough to punish OOS with Nair.

 

[Niko_K]

You'd be surprised at Nair's range and priority

:35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xwckq_ZiZy8

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Wow. thankyou for the excellent discussion guys, paticularly you Praxis (I imagined that Valdens would have helped your knowledge on this move )

If any of you want to discuss a move that's already been done as well as the move currently being done, please do so


I would have updated a bit sooner but I erm...I kind of dozed off...and then I had to wash my face...yea
Up next is Jigglypuff's Lullaby, also...also known as Sing. This is a deadly move - almost as lethal as the Falcon PAWWWNCH. I hope you guys can...come up with something good...just...sorry...I guess I haven't been getting...enough...

Dis...discuss...oooof....

 

[hush.]

xD Jigglypuff's Lullaby.

I haven't really seen this as much of a threat, since the attack becomes pretty obvious since the sleep effect activates a tad after the start-up. So when you see/hear it coming, simply roll back/punish or float/punish.

 

[TigerWoods]

Er.. wake up and hit jiggly while shes still singing horribly...

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Er.. wake up and hit jiggly while shes still singing horribly...

...ahhh...but it's...such a soothing melody...haaa...

Did I...did I mention about...ledge..cancelled...haaa...

 

[TigerWoods]

Lol... ledge cancel into rest.... *yawn.....

Might as well give jiggly SOMETHING to beat you with....

 

[Eddie G]

Er...don't get hit? There isn't going to be too many opportunities for the Jiggs player to pull it off, especially if their opponent is smart enough to avoid Jiggs as she's on the ledge. Not really too tough to deal with. XD

 

[Praxis]

You'd be surprised at Nair's range and priority

:35
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xwckq_ZiZy8

A ) The G&W horribly misspaced there.
B ) You punished his Nair, not his bair.

I agree that nair is effective in the matchup. I just don't think it can be used to punish his bair.

 

[Eddie G]

It can be used to punish the Bair, but it is very situational. I'll usually throw it in as an OoS option if the GnW player actually does dive into my shield with their Bair. Not the best or most apparent option, but still viable. ^.^

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Judging by the discussion, it would appear that the Jigglypuff's Sing doesn't quite match up to the epicness of the Falcon Punch. Theh again, what does?

By request, we have a move...that technically isn't even a move! It's Zero Suit Samus' Power Suit Pieces. These appear when Samus transforms into Zero Suit Samus...

...unfortunetly, when ZSS makes her on screen appearance, she transforms from Samus to ZSS, bringing her power suit pieces with her. These hurt. A lot. Having said that, if you know how to deal with them, you can easily use them to your advantage...unless your opponent realises this and throws them off the stage so you can't use them

Discuss away!

 

[Xyless]

I have a knack of catching them when they're thrown.

The more important thing to worry about is ZSS's glide toss, which can fling her right next to Peach the moment the match starts.

I personally try to get the pieces off the stage as soon as I can, so ZSS can have one less potential ranged attack against me.

 

[Eddie G]

Agreed Xyless. I play a pretty experienced ZSS player regularly, and if you can't get rid of them quite at that moment, then try to use them against her. Those are pretty much your only options for dealing with that. ^.^;

 

[Xyless]

As far as how to actually counter the pieces, I would say the best choice is to try to stick to the air. Don't bother shielding the pieces if she's throwing from the ground. That keeps them alive. Try to bait ZSS into throwing at you, then spotdodge them off the edge.

 

[Eddie G]

Yes, that's another good idea as well. I guess I just prefer to use her projectiles against her. Call it Diddy syndrome. XD

 

[Xyless]

I do as well. They're a pain to deal with, though, since they can go through plenty of moves. And it always seems like ZSS can throw them more efficiently than everyone else.

 

[Xyless]

Honestly though, I'm just going off of my experience as a time-to-time Zero Suit player, as I really haven't met a person besides me that has played ZSS well.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Pssst....perfect sheilding...

Who said that!?!?



Bouncy bouncy

 

[SleeplessInKyoto]

Use aggressive float approaches to corner Zamus. Remember that she can only throw it horizontally or vertically. Which means Peach's diagonal approach is perfectly suited for the job. Now, the idea is to get Zamus off the pile of armor that she's standing on, and then quickly throw the armor pieces off stage. Using them against her is great and all, but Zamus can always catch the pieces and use it against you. So really the best situation is to get those armor pieces offstage ASAP and do that by forcing Zamus off her metal pile as soon as the match starts.

 

[Airgemini]

If ZSS is second player pick Brinstar. She automatically looses two of her three pieces of armor.

 

[TigerWoods]

People sometimes forget that ZSS can use her specials while holding a suit piece. Besides the obvious throw or glidetoss down/up/at you, she can hit you(possibly ko you) with an overb.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Moving on (I don't think we needed too long on them unless other people think otherwise)

Next up...Toon Link's projectiles. I know we've only recently done the match up but I'm running out of ideas

And no smart arse remarks about you-know-what Praxis

Discuss away!

 

[Excel_Zero]

Float high or stand on high platforms to evade them.

 

[Praxis]

Dair blocks the projectiles, but don't approach with it from a distance cause he'll usmash you.

Evade the boomerang, and toad it ON THE WAY BACK. Toon Links like to scissor you between the returning boomerang and their own attacks.

 

[Xyless]

Can T.Link glide toss? I know Link can, but I haven't bothered testing it with T.Link.

(I would assume no)

 

[SleeplessInKyoto]

I would say shield or perfect shield the boomerang because this forces it to go back to TL. The boomerang is often the first step of TL setting up traps to pressurise you into moving in the way he wants. If you stop the boomerang then it makes TL's pressure game a lot more difficult.

A lot of TL's i played love this combo :

Boomerang > Quick fire arrow > Run into U-Smash

The arrow after the boomerang is very common, so i usually perfect shield the boomerang first and spotdodge just to be safe.

Toad can be used as the boomerang is coming back as a nice surprise, but remember Toad can be easily punished, especially by TL's nasty powerful smashes.

 

[Razmakazi]

meh, dair, glide toss, toad, slap, short hop air dodge into toad range or sumtin. there's also the fact that a lot of players really underestimate toad's range and they're all in awe 'n ****. I don't mind his projectiles much but what I really hate is his stupid Zair.

 

[deepseadiva]

If ZSS is second player pick Brinstar. She automatically looses two of her three pieces of armor.

The starting points are random...

 

[PrepareYourself]

When TL is about to land, jump.

He might immediately shoot an arrow. I do this often.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

There's no point making this go on for longer - Considering we did the Toon Link match up recently it's not surprising

Ok guys, I've run out of ideas :/ There's Falco's lasers but Dark.Pch made a guide on how to deal with them...has anyone got anything the want doing? I know Ivysaur's Bair was mentioned so if I don't get anything better, I'll do that

Also, how helpful has this thread been for people? I know it's my own thread but I've enjoyed doing it and I've enjoyed thinking up a move/description (paticularly Dk's Bair xD). I've also found answers for some moves that I wasn't sure how to deal with so thanks you lot :D Keep on contributing

 

[deepseadiva]

Also, how helpful has this thread been for people? I know it's my own thread but I've enjoyed doing it and I've enjoyed thinking up a move/description (paticularly Dk's Bair xD). I've also found answers for some moves that I wasn't sure how to deal with so thanks you lot :D Keep on contributing

It's one of the better threads on the board. I like it - except for the intro I never got around to finishing.

I'd like to know how to deal with some local stuff I have trouble with:

Ness's Pk Thunder - when ever I'm returning from above.
Yoshi's Egg Throw - which I can just CP Luigi's to get rid of, but in general.
Sheik's Dash Attack - VERY annoying
Peach Ditto Dairs - A legitimate question. How do we handle each other?

And, you know, we never discuss stage CPs for a move...

Like for MK's tornado. Go Green Greens and spotdodge by the bomb blocks. Or going Norfair against Diddy's bananas.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Discussing CP stages for paticular moves is an interesting idea...however, you aren't going to counterpick a certain stage just for one move (although arguable, negating some of the moves in this discussion would give you an advantage I guess)

Ok so by request, we're going to do Ness' (and Lucas') Pk Thunders. Be sure to say how to deal with them when they're using it to chase you or ram into you and the like

Discuss away!

 

[Airgemini]

Peach's Fair when its autocanceled could be a nice one.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

For when they're ramming into you? Hmm...sounds a bit risky since they fly forwards pretty fast

Also, done a bit of testing and getting chased in the air by PkT is laughably easy to deal with

 

[deepseadiva]

Also, done a bit of testing and getting chased in the air by PkT is laughably easy to deal with

EXPLAIN YOUR SECRETS

That's how I lost my last tourney...

 

[PrepareYourself]

In the air, don't DI and airdodge. While in the dodge animation avoid accordingly; he'll try to loop it and hit you.