Hitstun/shield stun Thread

[Dark Sonic]

^^Yep.

Spoiler

10characters

 

[Wind Owl]

Yes, but there's another way to avoid teching or being knocked down that I never quite understood.

 

[KayJay]

In my opinion i would be gladfull if we settle 11,75% hitstun as the default competitive value for this code, so we can move on to other things like changing MAD so that you can Up + B after, or creating a code where you won't lose speed momentum when you jump while dashing.

 

[MBlaze]

In my opinion i would be gladfull if we settle 11,75% hitstun as the default competitive value for this code, so we can move on to other things like changing MAD so that you can Up + B after, or creating a code where you won't lose speed momentum when you jump while dashing.

No complaints to this.

 

[Finns7]

Idk Yet I still want to practice it a little

 

[MBlaze]

Idk Yet I still want to practice it a little

Thats kew... kew... yeyep...

 

[Finns7]

Im just saying I got reeeeeallly adjusted to 10, so to be unbiased I need to spend a little time with 11.7

 

[Dark Sonic]

Yes, but there's another way to avoid teching or being knocked down that I never quite understood.

You could also do an aerial before you hit the ground.

A lot of people miss the tech because they are still holding R 40 frames before they hit the ground....which disables you from teching. If you see yourself get pushed off you should let go of R immediately if you want to be able to tech later.

a code where you won't lose speed momentum when you jump while dashing.

I love you.

 

[kupo15]

Im just saying I got reeeeeallly adjusted to 10, so to be unbiased I need to spend a little time with 11.7

11.75% lol. its in the OP. And I would advise you to not use gravity hacks just in case.

You could also do an aerial before you hit the ground.

A lot of people miss the tech because they are still holding R 40 frames before they hit the ground....which disables you from teching. If you see yourself get pushed off you should let go of R immediately if you want to be able to tech later.


I love you.

No wonder you love it

 

[Alopex]

Hitstun is the single most important change we will make to Brawl. It's definitely NOT something we want to rush just so we can "move on" to other things. Those other things are the things that can wait. Hitstun takes priority over everything until it's decided.

We just began looking at 11.75%. "Moving on" is not the best option at this point in testing.

 

[kupo15]

we def cant secure a stun level when the codes we want are not out either..

 

[Alopex]

It's not like we can work on the codes, we can just test. And there aren't any other codes out yet TO test.

PW and Igloo are both busy, no?

When a new code comes out (shieldstun!!), then we do simultaneous testing.

 

[Dark Sonic]

we def cant secure a stun level when the codes we want are not out either..

This!

Before we lock in any particular hitstun as standard, we have to have all of the codes that will affect our movement options. Dashdancing (and as a result pivoting) may allow more combos to happen that would otherwise have been impossible.

And retaining running momentum while jumping could completely change the metagame for faster characters (imagine if Metaknight when flying across the screen while doing a fair) and make a lot of combos that we have now not work later (or at least be more difficult) while at the same time creating a ton of other combos. It could also drastically change the edgeguarding game (imagine once again, Metaknight being able to run and jump off the stage and reach the bubble without using his jumps), and as a result change some people's views on the MAD vs BAD.

What I think we need to do first is to create all of the codes that we would consider putting in the final standard (given limited space of course) and actually test them out for a while. Some of the codes can be tweaked (like hitstun and shieldstun), but others are static hacks that cannot be adjusted, a lot of which are not actually out yet.

11.75% Hitstun is fine...for now, but I'd be very wary of getting too used to any particular value at the moment.

 

[plasmatorture]

Yes, there's no "deciding now and moving on."

11.75% might be great in normal gravity, but at 1.05x gravity 10% sure feels right to me. I haven't seen anything close to a decision on what gravity modifier to use (although I think anything over like 1.1x gravity is definitley not going to happen), and given how closely related hitstun and gravity seem to be, there's no way to decide on hitstun yet.

Plus, other codes can and will upset the balance.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Well, I personally don't want any gravity hacks until they figure out how to not gimp Sonic's recovery (seriously! It just rips off 1/4th of his up B!)

What I really want is for vertical momentum to be the same, but for all characters' fall speeds to go up.

It also messes up with a lot for timing specific aerials (like shorthopped dairs with Ganon and short hoppedbairs with Ike)

 

[plasmatorture]

Well, I personally don't want any gravity hacks until they figure out how to not gimp Sonic's recovery (seriously! It just rips off 1/4th of his up B!)

What I really want is for vertical momentum to be the same, but for all characters' fall speeds to go up.

It also messes up with a lot for timing specific aerials (like shorthopped dairs with Ganon and short hoppedbairs with Ike)

Have you played with 1.05? The higher gravity changes do all those things you mentioned, but with 1.05 you can shorthop dair with Ganon, Sonic's recovery is barely noticabley impacted, and I'm fairly certain you can short hop bairs with Ike (but I would need to double check to confirm that).

I agree that the high gravity changes are all rubbish, but 1.05 seems to speed up the game just enough without messing up any characters to be perfect.

Edit: Just checked, Ike can easily shbair.

 

[leafgreen386]

Changing gravity by any significant amount would require also adjusting the jump force applied when a character goes airborne. This is part of the reason I'm researching brawl's physics atm, so that if we should try higher gravity that we would also have an easy job finding the "right" jump force modifier.

From the sounds of things 1.05x grav also holds promise, so that might be worth checking out (I keep forgetting to try it, myself, though).

 

[Dark Sonic]

Have you played with 1.05? The higher gravity changes do all those things you mentioned, but with 1.05 you can shorthop dair with Ganon, Sonic's recovery is barely noticabley impacted, and I'm fairly certain you can short hop bairs with Ike (but I would need to double check to confirm that).

I agree that the high gravity changes are all rubbish, but 1.05 seems to speed up the game just enough without messing up any characters to be perfect.

Edit: Just checked, Ike can easily shbair.

Well, I don't exactly mean using Sonic's up B for recovery. It's actually a staple to Sonic as it provides him with an easy way to kill people off the top (spring->uair). Increasing the gravity nerfs this because Sonic simply can't reach as high with his up B in addition to characters not going as high from vertical attacks.

I mean, I still need to try 1.05 gravity to see exactly how much it is effected, but I think it would be pretty easy to make a code that just launches characters farther when they are sent upwards (by attacks, jumps, or otherwise). This would allow every character to travel the same height they do in normal brawl, they'd just ascend and decend faster (which is ultimately what we want isn't it?)

 

[SketchHurricane]

And retaining running momentum while jumping could completely change the metagame for faster characters (imagine if Metaknight when flying across the screen while doing a fair) and make a lot of combos that we have now not work later (or at least be more difficult) while at the same time creating a ton of other combos. It could also drastically change the edgeguarding game (imagine once again, Metaknight being able to run and jump off the stage and reach the bubble without using his jumps), and as a result change some people's views on the MAD vs BAD.

This is why hitstun will definitely need to go down if we get this hack. I really want to see this hack specifically for Sonic, even if we don't end up keeping it! This plus L-cancel, and he would ****...

 

[Heavyarms2050]

@Dark Sonic

in your sig, i wish CF finish it off with a falcon punch instead of a knee

 

[leafgreen386]

@Dark Sonic

in your sig, i wish CF finish it off with a falcon punch instead of a knee

You dare insult the WOMBO COMBO!?

I mean, I still need to try 1.05 gravity to see exactly how much it is effected, but I think it would be pretty easy to make a code that just launches characters farther when they are sent upwards (by attacks, jumps, or otherwise). This would allow every character to travel the same height they do in normal brawl, they'd just ascend and decend faster (which is ultimately what we want isn't it?)

This will require two codes. One that edits jump force and a second that increases the damage ratio for vertical knockback only. If my research proves successful, then we'll have an easy time figuring out what values we need to keep everyone's jumps about the same.

 

[zxeon]

You dare insult the WOMBO COMBO!?



This will require two codes. One that edits jump force and a second that increases the damage ratio for vertical knockback only. If my research proves successful, then we'll have an easy time figuring out what values we need to keep everyone's jumps about the same.

Crunching numers sux. It's some of the most boring work in the world. Good luck.

 

[Wind Owl]

You dare insult the WOMBO COMBO!?

Says the guy whose sig is completely void of wombo. v.v/

 

[kupo15]

A little mini combo highlight reel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFjZFZx2HUE

Analysis of video:

In case your thinking 11.75% is too high

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFjZFZx2HUE#t=0m2s
He didn't even try to DI after my first hit connected...I saw him

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFjZFZx2HUE#t=0m37s
He didn't DI the Uthrow and he was out of hitstun after each hit while DIing into me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFjZFZx2HUE#t=1m8s
Didn't DI the uthrow and was out of hit stun after each hit. You can see him tumble

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFjZFZx2HUE#t=1m20s
He didn't DI the uthrow but was out of hitstun before and after the Nair, didn't DI the dash attack, deserves to gt Daired

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFjZFZx2HUE#t=1m26s
Didn't DI at all. DI against Fox is tough anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFjZFZx2HUE#t=1m41s
Didn't DI the uthrow, was out of hitstun after the knee, dash attack DIed towards me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFjZFZx2HUE#t=2m0s
DI 100% toward me the whole time. He couldn't have made that any easier.

 

[Osi]

Nice video Kupo!

I actually tossed together some of my footage also into a random video. Not as much combo's as just tossing together clips I liked lol. I'm the fox/jiggly/link/falcon in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B-0DzLJVHo

 

[plasmatorture]

This will require two codes. One that edits jump force and a second that increases the damage ratio for vertical knockback only. If my research proves successful, then we'll have an easy time figuring out what values we need to keep everyone's jumps about the same.

Currently we have the Damage Ratio code which increases all knockback. I use 1.025x damage ratio with 1.05x gravity, which keeps vertical kills possible (although now that you mention it, I feel like they might still be a bit too nerfed) and also having the slight disadvantage of making horizontal kills better.

@Dark Sonic: That's a good point I suppose. I didn't really play Sonic in Brawl-, so it would be hard to compare how he felt then to Brawl+. Maybe you could see if 1.05x gravity/1.025x damage ratio felt fine?

The damage ratio code is paired with gravity solely to increase vertical knockback, so it would be great to just have a vertical knockback increasing code instead of it

 

[MBlaze]

Gravity mods suck altogether. lol

 

[Dark Sonic]

Well, it's not exactly vertical knockback I'm concerned about, so much as vertical momentum in general.

Characters don't jump as high, springs don't send them as high, ect. Basically, we'd need some way to just make everything send characters a little higher.

 

[MBlaze]

Well, it's not exactly vertical knockback I'm concerned about, so much as vertical momentum in general.

Characters don't jump as high, springs don't send them as high, ect. Basically, we'd need some way to just make everything send characters a little higher.

I say don't even screw with it, just get a fast fall code.

 

[maticMan94]

Nice vids Kupo and Osi! The combo video scene looks a lot better already

 

[Dark Sonic]

I say don't even screw with it, just get a fast fall code.

I've thought about that, but fall speed also decreases vertical knockback (which is calculated using both weight and fall speed acceleration), so while it might not cause my Sonic related problems (not going high enough with the spring), it would make vertical kills more difficult for all the characters.

 

[MBlaze]

I've thought about that, but fall speed also decreases vertical knockback (which is calculated using both weight and fall speed acceleration), so while it might not cause my Sonic related problems (not going high enough with the spring), it would make vertical kills more difficult for all the characters.

Then we shouldn't screw with this at all...

 

[leafgreen386]

I've thought about that, but fall speed also decreases vertical knockback (which is calculated using both weight and fall speed acceleration), so while it might not cause my Sonic related problems (not going high enough with the spring), it would make vertical kills more difficult for all the characters.

The effect of gravity is constant, and a character cannot fall faster than the force of gravity acting on them. The velocity of a character on any one frame can be defined as v = v0 - gf, where v0 is the initial velocity, g is the number of units gravity sends you downward each frame, and f is the frame number since launch, and a character's downward rate cannot exceed g. I actually only know that it works this way for jumps. It's obvious that you fall faster than just the rate of gravity when you're spiked, and knockback still ends even in zero gravity, meaning it's ending because of other means. It's actually possible that gravity has absolutely no effect on knockback whatsoever, and it only appears that way because a character is still "falling" due to the effect of the constant force of gravity as a separate component of their vertical positioning.

Marioblaze suggested we just get a fast fall modifier, so characters can well... fast fall faster. When you fast fall, the game replaces the current gravity value with a new one proportional to the standard gravity (fast fall dairs actually alter the gravity acting on the character until they do something else to change their momentum, such as fast falling or jumping, both of which will reset the gravity). None of the other ill effects of weakening characters' jumps, upBs, or their vertical knockback strength will be present, and only will let players reach the ground faster if they choose to do so.

So basically, our options are 1) Get a gravity, jump, and vertical knockback mod, which will universally increase the speed of the game while leaving knockback and jumps more or less alone, or 2) Just get a fast fall mod, which will allow characters to reach the ground quicker after their upward momentum has worn off.

 

[MBlaze]

But even with it hurting more that it helps, is it really worth it?

 

[Problem2]

I've been meaning to ask you leafgreen. How does downward knockback work in with gravity?

 

[kupo15]

Nice vids Kupo and Osi! The combo video scene looks a lot better already

Thanks!

Nice video Kupo!

I actually tossed together some of my footage also into a random video. Not as much combo's as just tossing together clips I liked lol. I'm the fox/jiggly/link/falcon in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5B-0DzLJVHo

Thanks! yours is pretty good also!


And btw, just in case anyone thinks 11.75% is a tad too much, I included a description of what went wrong and where he made his mistakes so you can see that the outcome could have been different. In in the heat of battle, some of those things are just mistakes that happen...some are inexcusable..

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6093999&postcount=1264

 

[plasmatorture]

But even with it hurting more that it helps, is it really worth it?

If you've never tried 1.05x gravity, I think it's ludicrous to claim it hurts more than it helps.

 

[leafgreen386]

I've been meaning to ask you leafgreen. How does downward knockback work in with gravity?

This is actually why I believe that gravity and knockback calculations may be separate. There are only two things that actually make sense for downward knockback: 1) Gravity acts as if you are in a neutral falling position (in other words, it acts at a constant downward rate) and then you fall an additional amount for the knockback, and 2) Gravity is completely ignored since you are falling faster than the force of gravity acting on you. I don't think #2 is how the game works, but I still need to test it. I've been playing games more than I've been testing them lately.

 

[Almas]

Considering that moves which cause you to 'bounce' off the floor seem to have a lot more hitstun than the a move that would send you the equivalent distance upwards, and that hitstun is proportional to launch speed... I think #1 seems to be more feasible.

Can you think of a reasonable way to measure air resistance/friction within the game? I guess a better start would be trying to find a formula for launch speed. Although I suppose the general case isn't hard.

 

[leafgreen386]

Considering that moves which cause you to 'bounce' off the floor seem to have a lot more hitstun than the a move that would send you the equivalent distance upwards, and that hitstun is proportional to launch speed... I think #1 seems to be more feasible.

Can you think of a reasonable way to measure air resistance/friction within the game? I guess a better start would be trying to find a formula for launch speed. Although I suppose the general case isn't hard.

Moves that bounce you off the floor have 80% of the knockback that the move normally has, but it calculates hitstun with the original launch speed.

For measuring how knockback degenerates, the only way I've come up with thus far is using stage builder blocks as a reference and viewing a completely vertical attack frame by frame. I haven't spent a lot of time on this yet, but from my initial check, it looks like this could be particularly annoying to figure out.

The formula for launch speed has already been found by Mr.Silver, btw, but I don't see how it could be useful for this. =/