Hitstun/shield stun Thread

[matt4300]

samus is still kinda crappy ya but she can combo into her killers now

the only way i can think to fix her would be to make her either faster (would really help her crappy *** rolling thats stupid slow and easy to tech chase) or to make ALL of her moves do and extra 3% damage wich isent a whole lot but it would really help.

its not just her unreliable kill moves shes just kinda bad >_>' i just cant think of 1 thing to make her viable she would take a pretty big overhaul to match up to the high teirs... but i guess im just dreaming T_T

EDIT: Yeh a more powerfull charge shot would be nice but shes still floaty as hell and has horibble rolling. her zair saves her most of the time wich is sad considering thats like her best move next to the charge shot. I mean come on her smashes are complete garbage and if someone DIs out of the fire then you get owned. Her fsmash is has such a tiny hit box its just rediculous you would think with people like snake who have the gay disjointed hitboxes of death
they would have given her alittle bit of a break.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

the only way i can think to fix her would be to make her either faster (would really help her crappy *** rolling thats stupid slow and easy to tech chase) or to make ALL of her moves do and extra 3% damage wich isent a whole lot but it would really help.

its not just her unreliable kill moves shes just kinda bad >_>' i just cant think of 1 thing to make her viable she would take a pretty big overhaul to match up to the high teirs... but i guess im just dreaming T_T

i personally think that her charge shot should be stronger and be immune to decay

 

[Wind Owl]

I'm going to start working up a Marth to counter other swordsmen. Marth is really good with added hitstun, not just cause of combos, but because of the fact people are forced to tech more. Tippering someone from a tech, tumble, or roll is just so tasty.

Can he repeatedly tech chase like in Melee? And is Dtilt still useless for edgeguarding?

 

[sagemoon]

Yeah, teching is harder, but why waste lines of code fixing something that still works.

Teching not only has been made harder to do, but slower, and there's no invulnerability in a tech roll. with a faster paced game, teching should probably be made faster and more rewarding. It might not be that big of a deal now to you, but it will become a big deal later I'm positive.

 

[kupo15]

I can't really understand how you guys think higher stun will lead to less repetition. Utilt gayness has been in since 64. In fact, pretty much all BnB combos in 64 were repetitive.

No, I said that if and when we get the "no decay" code, then you will be limited on the utilt ones, but you will have enough stun to combo with other moves you may not be able to with 10%

I'm going to post this here as well, since this is Kupo's domain for the most part.

>_> post all you want

CF isn't quite as good as I've been making him out to be. He has problems with swordsmen (with the exception of Ike), as their attacks just completely out-prioritize CF's everything.

Yea, I sorta agree. I played with 11.5 and man this was a huge difference for CF. I wonder if there is a whole in the histun. Based on accounts from both parties, it seems like in between 10-12% is really strange. Ill try 11.75% since the game calc fractions, it should make a difference

Kupo will be happy to hear this, but I'm more and more becoming not a big fan of S-canceling

Fantastic!

I'm looking forward to Magus canceling as well. That is going to be sweet. Phantom Wings, please get your **** together and make this crepe happen!

I got a PM back from him today. He said that before he started hacking, a big project came up that he is currently doing. I PMed back asking about when that might be finished. I'll keep you posted. Mookie, where is that post of yours with the picture of the Brawl+ invite?

 

[MookieRah]

OK, Marth has some ridiculous stuff. From what I can tell he can forward throw into fsmash tipper if the opponent DI's a specific way or not at all. You might think that isn't a big deal, but there are some tricks to make it happen. The best thing to do with every character to avoid the tipper is to DI away, and it will become obvious to your opponent real soon if they don't. It just so happens that if I downthrow instead, you will DI towards me if you thought I was going to throw you forward, which at around 20'ish percent with Marth that is another guaranteed tipper. Percentages vary from character to character, obviously. Later on in the mid percents it seems like Marth can forward through, move forward a bit, and then tip. I'm not sure if this is guaranteed or not, but I told Auri to try his ****dest to avoid it and he couldn't. Now THAT is a very rewarding and scary Marth mixup right there!

Can he repeatedly tech chase like in Melee? And is Dtilt still useless for edgeguarding?

Dtilt will continue to be useless for edgeguarding till they make the ledge hack. As far as tech chasing, Marth isn't the greatest at it. He's decently fast, but his grab range isn't all that good. Your best bet is to tech chase with tippers and not try to do anything elaborate.

@Kupo
That's good to hear that PW is able to hack, even if he has to work on a project. Hopefully we'll see some progress soon.

 

[kupo15]

OK, Marth has some ridiculous stuff. From what I can tell he can forward throw into fsmash tipper if the opponent DI's a specific way or not at all. You might think that isn't a big deal, but there are some tricks to make it happen. The best thing to do with every character to avoid the tipper is to DI away. It just so happens that if I downthrow instead, you will DI towards me if you thought I was going to throw you forward, which at around 20'ish percent with Marth that is another guaranteed tipper. Percentages vary from character to character, obviously. Later on in the mid percents it seems like Marth can forward through, move forward a bit, and then tip. I'm not sure if this is guaranteed or not, but I told Auri to try his ****dest to avoid it and he couldn't.

Now THAT is a very rewarding and scary Marth mixup right there!

@Kupo
That's good to hear that PW is able to hack, even if he has to work on a project. Hopefully we'll see some progress soon.

Scary!

Mookie, where is that post of yours with the picture of the Brawl+ invite? I think it would be a good idea for me to bookmark it

 

[Magus420]

What about DIing the throw down or down and slightly away? If it sends diagonally it should be comparable DI to away on the f-throw, but also not be DIing in for a d-throw. Worked well for his f/d-throw mixup in Melee.

 

[MookieRah]

What about DIing the throw down? If it sends diagonally it should be comparable DI on the f-throw, but also work for a d-throw. Worked well for his f/d-throw mixup in Melee.

That would probably work actually. I'll tell Auri to try it. It would make me sad if it does work, cause then the forward throw/back throw trick won't be that great :-(. I'll see if the up throw has any good options, since DI'ing down would be bad for that. It'd be great if it became an elaborate rock, paper, scissors situation with forward, down, and up throw.

 

[Magus420]

On the topic of DI, I wonder if there's still ~16 angles you can use? Like in Melee the strongest angle for CF's D-Throw to go as low as possible was halfway between Down&Away and Away which is just enough of a difference compared to the 2 angles next to it to make his D-Throw->Knee not work on anyone at any percent except Kirby and Jiggs, and the DI for the highest angle on Sheik's F-Air was halfway between Up and Up&Towards.

 

[Wind Owl]

Are there only 16 angles in Melee? Or are there more? Because knowing there are only 16 would actually help me a whole lot.

P.S. go to SPOC VI.

 

[zxeon]

I figured out marth's ability to Fsmash tippper people out of throws a while ago. For some people who fly a little too far you just hold the direction in which you sent them to break into a walk as soon as possible and nail 'em with a tipper.

 

[MookieRah]

Mookie, where is that post of yours with the picture of the Brawl+ invite? I think it would be a good idea for me to bookmark it, just in case i need to use it...even though Im confident I don't

I think you are referring to this:

The thread for it is here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206285

 

[Alopex]

Why shouldn't 0-death be possible if one is really good? Im not saying it should be easy, but it should still be possible...
Yes, reacting to DI is not that hard, but, the DI is so powerful that with not enough stun, you can DI out of range and out of stun in 1 or 2 moves which causes the combo game to suffer as well as the games excitement.

Because it shouldn't depend on how good YOU are, it should depend on how good your OPPONENT is.

It's just like DarkSonic said:

You could escape most combos in melee with DI actually, it was just a little complicated.

What makes the game deep is that if you predict their DI, you can make adjustments (if you think they will try to DI away from your ken combo, do a dash first and get them anyway). If you are fair comboing with Marth and they keep DIing towards the ground (and you are to close to tip them with a fair), throw out a uair instead and punish that bad DI.

I believe that "reactive" combos are not good for a game, because in reality they are just an extension of BnB combos. "If they DI this way, then do this." I think "predictive" combos are much healthier. "If you think they will DI this way, then do this," because it gives you the possibility to be wrong (thus ending the combo), but still give you your advantageous position, since more often then not you will be able to set up a tech chase even if you miss the combo.

If your opponent is predictable or bad at DI, then you can be awarded an extended combo for as long as you are able to properly predict them.

You shouldn't be able to continue a combo until death just based on your own skills with timing and spacing. Your opponent needs to have escape options available and your combo length should instead depend on how well you can anticipate what option your opponent will go for and try to counter it.

That's how it worked in Melee. If combos were all about proper technique and little prediction, then Mew2King would have been completely unstoppable. But because Melee had loads of prediction involved, Ken was the king instead, because his strongest asset was his ability to read people. Often like books.

If you're pulling off 0-death combos regardless of your opponent's DI, something is wrong.

 

[Dark Sonic]

To elaborate Kupo, I'll use an example.

Let's that I know exactly what combo you are going to do (since it's a textbook BnB combo). There should at least be some combination of DI that lets me escape from that combo. It could be DIing different parts of the combo in different directions (like DIing Marth's tipped fair towards him to force him to do an uair or up tilt, and then DIing that move behind him so that h can't follow up anymore).

In this situation, if he had predicted that DI and not tipped the fair, or done a uair instead, I'd but myself in a very bad situation (I'd be right in front of him or right behind him).

I still get hit quite a bit, you are still rewarded for landing the hit on me, but I do have the opportunity to determine just how badly I get punished (if I predict your moves I get out with less damage, if you predict me enough times I die). I may not even be able to truely escape your combo, but rather force you to throw a finisher in early, or else let me escape. (like DIing behind Marth during a chainthrow to force him to throw out the f-smash early, even when it won't kill).

Teching not only has been made harder to do, but slower, and there's no invulnerability in a tech roll. with a faster paced game, teching should probably be made faster and more rewarding. It might not be that big of a deal now to you, but it will become a big deal later I'm positive.

Wait what?

*evil smile*

Sonic for god tier (downthrow tech chases...forever).

 

[kupo15]

If you're pulling off 0-death combos regardless of your opponent's DI, something is wrong.

Well, of course I was also referring to pulling off 0-deaths according to how good your opponents DI. Like, if they DI perfectly to limit the moves you can do and you can adjust to that and continue the combo with the moves they force you to use to continue comboing to death or NEAR death, why shouldn't this be possible? Im not saying it should be easy or frequent, but I think the game should allow ridiculous combos if you are really good adjusting and compensating for their DI and this is something Im not seeing in 11%.

I was arguing because I interpreted your opinion as good DI should take you out of range in stun at all times. There are moves like that in Melee like Falco's shine, but being able to DI out of the second hit of a ken combo because you DIed out of range instead of DIing towards them to get hit with the following moves to avoid the tipper doesn't seem right.

The DI in this game is stupidly powerful 98% of the time and stupidly under powerful 2% of the time.

EDIT:

I agree with that DarkSonic. Im just afraid that we need to be careful that the powerful DI is balanced with the stun level.

 

[Dark Sonic]

EDIT, reading posts that happend while writing



Well, of course I was also referring to pulling off 0-deaths according to how good your opponents DI. Like, if they DI perfectly to limit the moves you can do and you can adjust to that and continue the combo with the moves they force you to use to continue comboing to death or NEAR death, why shouldn't this be possible? Im not saying it should be easy or frequent, but I think the game should allow ridiculous combos if you are really good adjusting and compensating for their DI and this is something Im not seeing in 11%.

Oh....I agree. If you repeatedly predict their DI it should be possible to combo them to death or near death.

but being able to DI out of the second hit of a ken combo because you DIed out of range instead of DIing towards them to get hit with the following moves to avoid the tipper doesn't seem right.

Well, you'd DI out of the ken combo, but ironically that very DI puts you in perfect range for a tipped f-smash if they were too...fast fall fair.

The DI in this game is stupidly powerful 98% of the time and stupidly under powerful 2% of the time.

The DI is not that much better than melee. You just have more time to actually input the DI (so you're caught by suprise less often) because of the greater hitlag.

That could be the next potential project (reducing hitlag).

 

[kupo15]

Good so we are on the same page.

So is hitlag the problem with DI? Whenever Im stuck in the MK Dthrow, I hold down and away and it seems to input multiple DI's unlike melee where you had to wobble your joystick...

 

[Dark Sonic]

Good so we are on the same page.

So is hitlag the problem with DI? Whenever Im stuck in the MK Dthrow, I hold down and away and it seems to input multiple DI's unlike melee where you had to wobble your joystick...

You can't SDI throw in melee.

MK's d-throw just sends you at a bad angle for comboing by defualt. It looks like a good combo starter, but it really isn't.

It's the same as Marth's f-throw in melee. DIing away and down let you escape any follow ups with most characters. It looks like you should be able to combo from it, but you simply can't and you'd be better off using an upthrow just to get the positioning advantage.

What I'm talking about is how in brawl there is a lot of hitlag on most moves (Marth's tipped fair is a great example), which would allow the opponent to realize what move he is getting hit with and DI accordingly. In melee you had to guess what your opponent's next attack was going to be, and if you guessed wrong you could not fix it because there was simply not enough time for you to realize that you had actually made a mistake.

Lower hitlag would also make it harder to SDI out of multihit moves on reaction. It would be harder to SDI out of MK's fair on reaction for instance, since there would ultimately be less time between the first and second hits, so you would not have as much time to actually realize that you are getting hit.

 

[kupo15]

You can't SDI throw in melee.

MK's d-throw just sends you at a bad angle for comboing by defualt. It looks like a good combo starter, but it really isn't.

It's the same as Marth's f-throw in melee. DIing away and down let you escape any follow ups with most characters. It looks like you should be able to combo from it, but you simply can't and you'd be better off using an upthrow just to get the positioning advantage.

What I'm talking about is how in brawl there is a lot of hitlag on most moves (Marth's tipped fair is a great example), which would allow the opponent to realize what move he is getting hit with and DI accordingly. In melee you had to guess what your opponent's next attack was going to be, and if you guessed wrong you could not fix it because there was simply not enough time for you to realize that you had actually made a mistake.

Lower hitlag would also make it harder to SDI out of multihit moves on reaction. It would be harder to SDI out of MK's fair on reaction for instance, since there would ultimately be less time between the first and second hits, so you would not have as much time to actually realize that you are getting hit.

Mk's default trajectory from a Dthrow is a 30-45 deg angle which is an excellent setup move if not DIed. DIing down and away takes away and tech takes away all follow ups except tech chasing

That is a very good point about Hitlag. I referenced this in my code agenda thread. Lets discuss it there.

 

[MookieRah]

What about DIing the throw down or down and slightly away?

After some testing Magus, it appears that DI'ing down has pretty much the same effect as DIing away, in other words you can tipper out of it. I was able to tipper Auri's Meta about the same after I learned to adjust to the slight differences. Actually all DIing down does is make the trajectory pretty much horizontal, and that causes one to be able to move forward and tip.

 

[Osi]

I think you are referring to this:

The thread for it is here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=206285

So after going to that thread I noticed they are on .5 hitstun which is +10% right? Does this seem like the amount they are leaning to for tourneys as a standard atm? I'm only asking this since we're starting to practice on 10% right now. It would be a shame to drop down lower or go higher after getting use to it lol. I realize it's early to be asking this since the standard set can't be made till we have the shield and edge codes in too. With tourneys actually starting there must be some sort of standard set though.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Mk's default trajectory from a Dthrow is a 30-45 deg angle which is an excellent setup move if not DIed. DIing down and away takes away and tech takes away all follow ups except tech chasing

That's exactly what I was talking about. DIing down and away essentially "solves" his d-throw, making it a bad combo starter. It also takes a long time to actually do, meaning that once your opponent knows which way they are supposed to DI they will never miss it. Therefore, MK's d-throw can no longer act as a combo move against decent opponents, because it's already been "solved."

I guess I should've clarified what I meant by it's defualt trajectory being bad. Typically a throw is better for comboing if it sends the opponent straight up, or at least close to it, because then you can feasibly chase any DI that they do without them being able to hit the ground. A throw is better for tech chasing if it sends an opponent more horizontally, because then even if they DI up they will still have to hit the ground and tech.

Individual moves get a little more complicated, but for the most part you want ground moves to send them up and aerials to send them slightly foward, so that if they DI your aerials down you can link ground moves to pop them back up. And if they DI the aerials up, you can just follow with more aerials. DIing the ground moves does not matter, because you'd just do aerials in the direction to which direction their DI sent them.

 

[kupo15]

Sonic: Yup

Ok, I just found my new favorite hitstun level...11.75%. At the moment it feels perfect. I have 2 hours worth to sift through, I should be able to find some.

No trip
Hit stun 11.75% (3F047AE1 )
ALC

 

[matt4300]

*bump* and also could you give us the line of code for 11.75% if you liked it i probely will aswell seeing as how most of your ideas of what "works" are fun to me.

 

[kupo15]

3F047AE1 11.75%

I also added it to the OP since the last post lol ^_^

 

[MBlaze]

3F047AE1 11.75%

I also added it to the OP since the last post lol ^_^

I must try this. I wonder if this might be the one. O:

Also edit the stun level typo for 18%,

 

[kupo15]

It is awesome and too good to describe. Maybe my opinion will change once I get myself accustom to it, but I love it 10x more than 12%. Mookie felt that 12% was a tad too much, and he was right. So 11.75% has to be perfect

 

[Dan_X]

It is awesome and too good to describe. Maybe my opinion will change once I get myself accustom to it, but I love it 10x more than 12%. Mookie felt that 12% was a tad too much, and he was right. So 11.75% has to be perfect

So Falcon can more effectively combo at 11.75% Because I'm using 11.5 and it feels like a tad to little hit stun.

 

[kupo15]

Lets put it this way. He can combo like 12% but not as often. You need to work harder and set it up better which its excellent. I found that 11.5% was a tad too little and really difficult also.

 

[Dan_X]

Lets put it this way. He can combo like 12% but not as often. You need to work harder and set it up better which its excellent. I found that 11.5% was a tad too little and really difficult also.

SOUNDS GOOD! I'll have to give it a shot-- though I won't have time until the weekend--- finals ftl!

 

[Finns7]

good news guyz i have a sd card now so im going to put up matches, quality matches this time though showing skill what percent do u wanna see?

 

[Dan_X]

good news guyz i have a sd card now so im going to put up matches, quality matches this time though showing skill what percent do u wanna see?

Work with 11.75%

 

[matt4300]

11.75 man XD seems to be a hot topic as of now.

 

[SketchHurricane]

From my experience with 11, the combos only happened when you failed to DI. I'll definitely check out 11.75 next time and see whats good.

 

[kupo15]

From my experience with 11, the combos only happened when you failed to DI. I'll definitely check out 11.75 next time and see whats good.

The only problem is that DI is so easy to do because hitlag is so long. So ppl will be DIing 98% of the time correctly. But yes, try 11.75%

 

[matt4300]

The only problem is that DI is so easy to do because hitlag is so long. So ppl will be DIing 98% of the time correctly. But yes, try 11.75%

You can get vids up pretty easy right kupo? If so im sure im not alone in wanting to see some different chars like mario, sonic, bowser, link, jiggz, lucario, ness, peach, #_# mostly i want to see if bowser dosent totally and completely suck ballz now that everyone can combo him into oblivion and he can do like 1 combo.

>_> sigh more fox.... and ike i do look forward to some lightning heelz though ^_^

 

[kupo15]

yes i can but the problem is, im not good with those characters so I wouldn't show much. I will be getting some better fox (me) , Zelda and ike up

 

[MookieRah]

I'll try 11.75% out next week, I'm going to be gone till Sunday. Hopefully there will be a shield stun code around by the time I'm back.

 

[Osi]

I'll be making a short compilation combo video with fox/falco/marth/jiggly/peach/samus/mario/falcon/pikachu/ness footage this weekend or the next. Nothing too awesome, but still should show some of the new possible combos.