Hitstun/shield stun Thread

[Almas]

Because I assume, somewhere hidden in the mists, are some variables which tell you your velocity at any given time. Which means that you should be able to calculate the rate of decay by skipping forwards frame by frame and seeing how it changes.

 

[leafgreen386]

Ah. Yes. Well, the problem with that is that I don't have a usb gecko, so I can't find the internal value the game stores as launch speed each frame. =/

 

[MBlaze]

If you've never tried 1.05x gravity, I think it's ludicrous to claim it hurts more than it helps.

Well then I guess it's a good thing I did, right?

 

[SketchHurricane]

Just one thing I've been wanting to say:

One thing I noticed about vanilla Brawl is that it is a game dominated by safe aerials. Low risk was the name of the game. Hitstun alone changes that completely for most characters. During my last batch of Brawl+ matches, I began to notice that safe aerials now came with a price: the sacrifice of combo potential. Whenever I dipped back into the habit of safe aerials and connected, I noticed I squandered most of my combo potential by playing it safe, and had to actually remind myself to be more aggressive. Sort of an obvious concept, but it became utterly noticeable with hitstun in effect.

This sort of thing happen to anyone else?

 

[MuBa]

Just one thing I've been wanting to say:

One thing I noticed about vanilla Brawl is that it is a game dominated by safe aerials. Low risk was the name of the game. Hitstun alone changes that completely for most characters. During my last batch of Brawl+ matches, I began to notice that safe aerials now came with a price: the sacrifice of combo potential. Whenever I dipped back into the habit of safe aerials and connected, I noticed I squandered most of my combo potential by playing it safe, and had to actually remind myself to be more aggressive. Sort of an obvious concept, but it became utterly noticeable with hitstun in effect.

This sort of thing happen to anyone else?

I play Snake so I wouldn't know >_>

 

[SketchHurricane]

Allow me to quote myself from the other thread:

I don't think the whole hitstun constant thing was broken down at all to us when it was discovered. The formula is apparently hitstun = launch speed/165. What we don't know is what the modifier actually modifies. Let's use 4000 mph as our launch speed (the speed of a deadly spike?). This gives us 25 frames of stun. Now where does this .4 default value fit in? It can't be .4 of 25, which would be 10 frames, not nearly enough considering we die from spikes at that speed. If we take .4 from 165, we get a new constant of 66, which gives us a more reasonable 60 frames (your dead off the bottom after a full second). But that breaks down when you plug .5 in, which gives you less hitstun instead of more. So what exactly is .4 modifying?

Any takers on this mystery?

 

[kupo15]

Allow me to quote myself from the other thread:



Any takers on this mystery?

lol, i guess im following you over here then

.4=165

Your moding the 165 number

 

[SketchHurricane]

lol, i guess im following you over here then

.4=165

Your moding the 165 number

I figured the question should be in the hitstun thread.

But that's still confusing. Whatever the modifier does, it has to make the constant smaller in order for the hitstun to come out larger, since we are dividing. If 165 is .4 of some other number, then .5 should be a larger number, which would make the hitstun smaller, but the opposite is true. This should lead us to believe we are modifying something else, not the constant...

 

[Deleted member]

Content removed to lighten my internet footprint.

 

[leafgreen386]

I figured the question should be in the hitstun thread.

But that's still confusing. Whatever the modifier does, it has to make the constant smaller in order for the hitstun to come out larger, since we are dividing. If 165 is .4 of some other number, then .5 should be a larger number, which would make the hitstun smaller, but the opposite is true. This should lead us to believe we are modifying something else, not the constant...

I'll just c/p my response from the other thread:

Also, for whoever was asking about how hitstun was calculated, I'm pretty sure that whatever value these modifiers are for is multiplied to the result, and are not applied directly to what launch speed is divided by, which should be 66.

So I guess technically hitstun is calculated as:

h = m*l / 66

Where h is hitstun in frames, m is the modifier (usually .4), and l is launch speed.

 

[storm92]

I own lvl 9 DK CPU's, lol.

Nahhhhhhhhhhhhhh but really, I uploaded just for the first kill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epoIacAJKRo&fmt=18

 

[kupo15]

I'll just c/p my response from the other thread:

Also, for whoever was asking about how hitstun was calculated, I'm pretty sure that whatever value these modifiers are for is multiplied to the result, and are not applied directly to what launch speed is divided by, which should be 66.

So I guess technically hitstun is calculated as:

h = m*l / 66

Where h is hitstun in frames, m is the modifier (usually .4), and l is launch speed.

makes sense

How did this thread get on page 3? Hopefully it will be alive whenever we get shield stun

 

[shanus]

i just switched to brawl + with Manual L-Cancel, +11.75% hitstun, no trip, inf replay and really like it. I haven't gotten to play real people to see how much the hitstun has changed the gameplay. Are there any easy ways to show how the hitstun makes that big of a difference without two people?

 

[kupo15]

i just switched to brawl + with Manual L-Cancel, +11.75% hitstun, no trip, inf replay and really like it. I haven't gotten to play real people to see how much the hitstun has changed the gameplay. Are there any easy ways to show how the hitstun makes that big of a difference without two people?

Unfortunately no since CPUs DI terribly. I think the best thing might be to sandbag against a Lvl 9 CPU, DI accordingly and notice how when you can react. You should give auto l canceling a try, I think you will like it better than manual l canceling since manual l canceling is buggy and auto l canceling is fine

 

[shanus]

ah, ill wait till my friend is over this afternoon. I prolly wont use auto–l–cancel, I was a tech freak back in melee and i miss the techs too much to have it do it for me :O lol

 

[kupo15]

ah, ill wait till my friend is over this afternoon. I prolly wont use auto–l–cancel, I was a tech freak back in melee and i miss the techs too much to have it do it for me :O lol

lol it isnt auto teching. FYI, 75/195 moves already are auto l canceled and with the wierd timing of manual l canceling, auto is better. But its your preference....

 

[Lawlb0t]

What hitstun % do most people play with? The topic title says 11.75%, but I have no idea if that is even updated.

 

[zxeon]

What hitstun % do most people play with? The topic title says 11.75%, but I have no idea if that is even updated.

With downward gravity at x1.3 I use 11% and I feel like it's about the same as 11.75% without extra downward gravity.

 

[Osi]

lol it isnt auto teching. FYI, 75/195 moves already are auto l canceled and with the wierd timing of manual l canceling, auto is better. But its your preference....

I have to agree with Kupo on this one. I love tech as much as anyone else, but with 1/3 the moves auto canceled and the iffy melee l cancel code it's just better to use the ALC one. It lets you put more tech effort into wavedashing!!!! j/k j/k Kupo >.<

Seriously it's a good code, and fits brawl more IMO.

 

[kupo15]

I have to agree with Kupo on this one. I love tech as much as anyone else, but with 1/3 the moves auto L canceled and the iffy melee l cancel code it's just better to use the ALC one. It lets you put more tech effort into wavedashing!!!! j/k j/k Kupo >.<

Seriously it's a good code, and fits brawl more IMO.

fixed for no confusion

 

[Osi]

Hehe, yea meant auto L canceled moves. It may be different if every move had lag, but AD they don't.

 

[Revven]

Gais, what's the floating point for 9%? I fail at using the converter (I KNOW how to use it, it's figuring out the decimal of the percent). I want to be one of the first people with videos of 9% hitstun.

 

[kupo15]

.49

Brawl's default is .4
you are adding .09

 

[Deleted member]

what confuses is that 11% isn't actually adding 11%, but 0.11
when you go from the standard 0.4 to 0.5 that would be adding 25% of hitstun, while here it would be +10%

EDIT:
btw who came up with 11.75? really why not just 12 or something similair rounded, whe haven't even agreed on other cades.

 

[Revven]

.49

Brawl's default is .4
you are adding .09

Thanks, that's what I originally thought but, I was making sure. It doesn't sound like I'm adding a lot on paper but, we'll see how 9% goes in comparison to 10% and tha alleged 11.75% being perfect.

 

[Problem2]

though I doubt anyone is really going to incorporate item play into Brawl+, I would like to say that the Sonic's final smash is more broken because the hitstun guarantees a 0 to death combo when correctly performed by the opponent.

 

[kupo15]

what confuses is that 11% isn't actually adding 11%, but 0.11
when you go from the standard 0.4 to 0.5 that would be adding 25% of hitstun, while here it would be +10%

EDIT:
btw who came up with 11.75? really why not just 12 or something similair rounded, whe haven't even agreed on other cades.

I came up with the 11.75%. If you play 12% then switch to 11.75%, you will notice a difference. 11.75% has the same potential as 12% except you have to pay more attention to damage, location, and spacing and everything. 11.75% is much better than 12% believe it or not lol

 

[kupo15]

shield stun is added to the second post.

I think that "2" is too much for strong hits.

 

[SketchHurricane]

Good stuff. This will be hard to test until I get a second player over.

With 4 in both modifiers, Mario's jab combo completely pushes DK out of range for another (you can fit two in normally).

 

[kupo15]

Good stuff. This will be hard to test until I get a second player over.

With 4 in both modifiers, Mario's jab combo completely pushes DK out of range for another (you can fit two in normally).

You should be able to do some testing by your self. Just set the defending player to a wiimote, flip it upside down on the floor and shield with your foot

That 1 line code does affect weak AND strong hits i noticed.
The 11 line code does absolutely the same for me.

The 11 line hardly does anything for weak

If I'm understanding this correctly, then I think this should result in a similar damage/shieldstun curve to Melee's throughout the damage ranges, which should be a decent place to start experimenting with and start to get a feel for what would work best and which direction to go with it from there.

(atk*(1-0.7)*1.15+2)*X+1=frames_stunned (kind of)
         ^    ^   ^    ^
     04B88480 |   |   Shield drop animation
        04B88464 04B88468

I'm guessing the normal amount for the '2' here is 0, since for the most part that fits the stun time data I have, and that the '2' is a suggested amount to try for increasing stun on low damage hits where the multiplier has little to no effect?

Anyway, if that's the case then putting in 1.3 (3FA66666) for the multiplier (more significant on high damage attacks), and 1.5 (3FC00000) for the amount added (more significant on low damage attacks) should result in shieldstun comparable to Melee's to see if that works well.

[COLOR=Yellow][B]Shield Stun[/B][/COLOR] [spunit262] 11 lines
C28753EC 00000006
48000009 [COLOR=Yellow][B]3FA66666[/B][/COLOR] [COLOR=Gray](multiplier of 1.3)[/COLOR]
FC20F890 839F007C
A39C0006 2C1C001A
41820010 7F8802A6
C03C0000 FC2107F2
FC00081E 00000000
C277F78C 00000002
2C1C001D 41820008
B39E0006 2C1CFFFF
60000000 00000000

04B88468 [COLOR=Yellow][B]3FC00000[/B][/COLOR] [COLOR=gray](adds 1.5)[/COLOR]


Default Multiplier: 3F800000 (1.0)
Melee-esque(?) Multiplier: [B][COLOR=Yellow]3FA66666[/COLOR][/B] (1.3)

Default(?) Added: 00000000 (0.0)
Original Suggestion(?) by spunit for Added: 40000000 (2.0)
Melee-esque(?) Added: [B][COLOR=Yellow]3FC00000[/COLOR][/B] (1.5)

Cool I give this a try. Question. How do we know where the line is for having too much/little hitstun? Like if you shield ganon's fsmash, where should ganon be in the cool down lag when you get out of your shield? Same for weak hits. What opinions should you have when you leave your shield compared to the attacker?

 

[Almas]

There isn't really a way of knowing what the perfect value is without just trying it out. Obviously, it should be clear when some things are TOO much - I recommend looking at the moves which are already very powerful against a shield such as Yoshi's Dair, Jigg's Pound, and make sure that they don't lead into some kind of overpowered combo which eats up entire shields.

Jab/Grab should be about equal chance for either player to grab, depending on the character. Aerial-Grab should be possible if the opponent fumbles, if the aerial comes out very close to the floor. Of course, this'll be hard to see perfectly while such a large amount of buffering is in the game.

 

[kupo15]

Of course we need to test but I was wondering if magus noticed any patterns in melees shield stun that should be excellent examples to base our initial testing on.

 

[Deleted member]

gonna port the shieldstun after dinner. looks good

 

[kupo15]

gonna port the shieldstun after dinner. looks good

Yep xD


I tested magus idea. The strong hits seemed a little low but the weak hits were not improved at all. I even tried keeping the original 1 liner and nothing so I'm trying 2.5 for the 1 liner

 

[MBlaze]

Yep xD


I tested magus idea. The strong hits seemed a little low but the weak hits were not improved at all. I even tried keeping the original 1 liner and nothing so I'm trying 2.5 for the 1 liner

Umm could you post the code with 2.5 in it plz?

 

[kupo15]

I have no idea how to test this lol

"3" for both codes seems to be fine for a starting place.

3=40400000

http://babbage.cs.qc.edu/IEEE-754/Decimal.html

 

[leafgreen386]

This is awesome that we finally have a shieldstun code, although I unfortunately probably won't be able to help test much today. GL guys.

 

[SketchHurricane]

There isn't really a way of knowing what the perfect value is without just trying it out. Obviously, it should be clear when some things are TOO much - I recommend looking at the moves which are already very powerful against a shield such as Yoshi's Dair, Jigg's Pound, and make sure that they don't lead into some kind of overpowered combo which eats up entire shields.

EDIT: The following refers to the 1 liner:

I don't think this will be the case, because this shield stun code seems to increase shield push by an equal amount. For instance, with a value of 4, the hits roughly the same amount of times, but pushes you out of range. This makes shield less effective for defensive countering, but actually safer in most cases. BTW even if you stayed in range at 4, Pound wouldn't lock you down since it comes out so slow...

In other words, unless your getting knocked off of platforms and such, I don't think there is any way this code will break any moves since the push increases. We might need some sort of push modifier if we want any kind of shield pressure game to develop with this code. At normal stun, you can counter out of any shield pressure, but with the code, you get pushed out of any shield pressure.

Umm could you post the code with 2.5 in it plz?

http://babbage.cs.qc.edu/IEEE-754/Decimal.html

 

[storm92]

Just wondering, as I have yet to test this, but won't shield grabs be nerfed now?
I suppose we'll have to just adapt and bring up the shield earlier than before so we can grab at the same time as before?

 

[kupo15]

Well, in a game where throws set you up for a lot and do a lot of damage, shield grabbing makes this game anit competitive in a way...so in that sense it balances out