Guide: Get Killed Meta Knight!!!!! Read Op people!! Semi Updated.

[BarDulL]

Marth for top tier!!

He's mid tier at most.

 

[Steel]

good 1 sir

 

[BarDulL]

good 1 sir

I wasn't kidding.

 

[ZHMT]

He's mid tier at most...on wifi

Edited for accuracy.

Also by 'at most' it means unlikely.

 

[BarDulL]

>.>

<.<

Hope no one had time to quote that.

 

[Steel]

I wasn't kidding.

Well you've given me nothing to work with to prove this to me or anyone. So i'm not going to come to any quick conclusions about why you think this.

And so I ask.. why do you think this?

 

[feardragon64]

He's mid tier at most.

Interest piqued.
After you answer Steel's question(and I mean answer his before you say anything on this) would you answer me two things:
-Do you think Marth's match-up numbers are correct for the most part? In your opinion what are the big changes you'd make?
-How is Marth worse than, say, Kirby or belongs with a character like, say, Bowser?
-(optional)Do you include Marth's final smash?

This is going to be interesting >>

 

[Darxmarth23]

He's mid tier at most.

Interest piqued.
After you answer Steel's question(and I mean answer his before you say anything on this) would you answer me two things:
-Do you think Marth's match-up numbers are correct for the most part? In your opinion what are the big changes you'd make?
-How is Marth worse than, say, Kirby or belongs with a character like, say, Bower?

This is going to be interesting >>

Yeah you are right fear. This should be good.

I have some Qs for ya 2, BarDulL.

1) From the opinion i got from you, how screwed up is the tier list to you?

2)Who would you say is keeping marth down?

 

[Remzi]

He's joking. I think. I hope.

 

[∫unk]

Bardull's MM marth ditto me :D

 

[**Havok**]

Well you've given me nothing to work with to prove this to me or anyone. So i'm not going to come to any quick conclusions about why you think this.

And so I ask.. why do you think this?

Interest piqued.
After you answer Steel's question(and I mean answer his before you say anything on this) would you answer me two things:
-Do you think Marth's match-up numbers are correct for the most part? In your opinion what are the big changes you'd make?
-How is Marth worse than, say, Kirby or belongs with a character like, say, Bowser?
-(optional)Do you include Marth's final smash?

This is going to be interesting >>

Yeah you are right fear. This should be good.

I have some Qs for ya 2, BarDulL.

1) From the opinion i got from you, how screwed up is the tier list to you?

2)Who would you say is keeping marth down?

He's joking. I think. I hope.

Bardull's MM marth ditto me :D

ok ok ok STOP. This isn't attack bardul thread.

Does anyone want to add anything to the guide?

 

[∫unk]

wutdahel no one is attacking him they're all asking legitimate questions (except bengals lol)

 

[feardragon64]

Friendly conversation Havok. Like I said, interest piqued. No flames involved in this >> I'm just wondering why someone would think that.

 

[**Havok**]

K added neutral air that i've been testing for a little a while and its not bad in the matchup.

 

[mikeHAZE]

i'll read this one day


meaning before i smash this week

 

[∫unk]

i like the thread name

 

[Pierce7d]

Wow, I just read this for the first time. FINALLY someone knows what the hell their talking about, so I'll add on a few tips of my own. Havokk, you can add these to the guide if you'd like. ****, where has West Coast (besides Junk) been??

A) When you jump out to edgeguard MK, and he starts Gliding, COUNTER his Glide Attack. They love challanging with it, because they know it has stupid amounts of range and power. It can kill MK pretty early if he messes up DI, since he's light and already off stage.

B) If you perfect shield a dtilt, you should be able to shield drop dsmash. If you normal shield a dtilt, you should be able to shield drop into shield, and you'll perfect shield. See what I'm getting at here?

C) If MK starts stopping your Fair approaches with SH (**** that dragon punch), airdodge through, then chase and aerial, or upsmash.

D) Your Uair beats out MK's Dair. Attempt to Juggle MK. It actually works a little.

E) Be aggressive. A MK who is allowed to pressure you will not lose to your OOS options. It will also keep you from needed to summon Dolphin Slash prematurely.

 

[Steel]

I'm with Pierce that you probably shouldn't rely on the old defensive style vs MK, I feel it's outdated in this match up. Play safe, and don't allow him to approach at will.

 

[**Havok**]

Wow, I just read this for the first time. FINALLY someone knows what the hell their talking about, so I'll add on a few tips of my own. Havokk, you can add these to the guide if you'd like. ****, where has West Coast (besides Junk) been??

Im not Havokk.

Im Havok.


We've been around, but we get snubbed by regulars on the Marth boards so I stay away (you know who Junk shhhhhhh). Me, MikeHAZE, Bardul are frequently doing well in SoCal. I do ok. MikeHAZE might just look like he's trolling but underneath that is tricksy martha. Bardul may not play as much as he used to but he's probably the most aggressive and goes into **** mod .

You mean you haven't read IT?!?!? WHO ELSE HASN'T READ THE OP ??

I actually feel like the matchup is 50/50 strictly IMO.

A) When you jump out to edgeguard MK, and he starts Gliding, COUNTER his Glide Attack. They love challanging with it, because they know it has stupid amounts of range and power. It can kill MK pretty early if he messes up DI, since he's light and already off stage.

mmm maybe but it sounds risky ima test it. Sounds like a one time thing though, next time they'll just fly right past you lol. Like I said , ill give it a shot cuz it does sound legit since it could kill. hmmmm.

B) If you perfect shield a dtilt, you should be able to shield drop dsmash. If you normal shield a dtilt, you should be able to shield drop into shield, and you'll perfect shield. See what I'm getting at here?

wow, VERY useful. (No sarcastic meter here) You're right. I never thought of that. Does anyone have the frame data on shield dropping? Because MK's dtilt comes out (or hits) on frame 3 and that's a *itch.

C) If MK starts stopping your Fair approaches with SH (**** that dragon punch), airdodge through, then chase and aerial, or upsmash.

I MM'd an MK who started using Oos shuttle loop but since he was doing that he couldnt't kill me with it! I would die to dsmash instead. Yes this is true, you can also bait it and power shield. I'll add this in a different section (I might add something later)

D) Your Uair beats out MK's Dair. Attempt to Juggle MK. It actually works a little.

yes, its actually a bit longer but the prolem is MK's 5 jumps. Ill add this.

E) Be aggressive. A MK who is allowed to pressure you will not lose to your OOS options. It will also keep you from needed to summon Dolphin Slash prematurely.

I agree, you CAN be aggressive. I think it's a balance, when hes running stay back, when he's retreating Fairing, dtilting (spacing) APPROACH! Yes, running- shield to dancing blade IS AN OPTION. I remember someone telling me that its not. I do all of this in tournament, how could you tell me anything of this doesn't work?


Good *hit Pierce.


Who's next?

I'll make an approaching section.
A recovery section (i think) lol
misc section (stuff that doesn't have specific points)

 

[_Kadaj_]

looks interesting i'll read later

 

[∫unk]

havok you've posted more last night than you have ever LOL

you've already probably revealed too many secrets

ec marths were coming for you in feb :D

 

[Pierce7d]

My fault Havok. And Junk, I can't wait. I love East Coast, but I'm never one for unnecessary beef, and WC seems pretty legit.

As for MK being able to glide past counter, this is true. However, what can he really do after that? He's in mid-glide, he'll have to glide under you, or risk you throwing the Bair at him and eating a hit. After that, you can recover pretty reliably, especially if you didn't waste your second jump. If he jumps out at you, you should be above him, and therefore at vertical advantage. Not really a threatening situation. Perhaps I might hold able on this tactic if I'm at high percentages, since the risk of being forced to the ledge might then lead to loss of a stock, but it's generally a well payed off tactic. MK's love whoring out that Glide Attack, and counters beats it.

Seriously, UAIR IS GOOD. MK can't do **** while he's above you, and there is ground beneath your feet. Actaully, you just outright win in the air. The only thing to watch out for is Tornado.

Oh, and I forgot one important thing. You can Dolphin Slash out of Tornado if MK doesn't catch you in it properly. If you're near the top, and you manage to DI toward the center, spam UpB. I've killed Inui and M2k before by Dolphin Slashing out of tornado mid move, while they were at high percentages. Be careful not to Dolphin Slash if you are too much above MK though, as you'll miss, and most likely get punished by that annoying Nair, or a charged smash attack.

 

[Pierce7d]

Double posting cause I felt like it. (and because I didn't really want to get way off topic in my last post)

lol @ WC staying away because of regulars. Ignore them. I've heard of you guys ****** shiz on the WC since I was a little n00b, and I say your input is very appreciated. I'm pretty sure my opinion has reasonable standing here, and I count as a regular. Stick around, let's share some knowledge.

And if Bardull plays hyper aggressive, sounds like my new style. I wonder what attack patterns he uses, we'll have to talk sometime and compare.

 

[Pr0phetic]

Last time I remember the lips of FD makes it a little hard to recover and MK exceeds more then Marth on that level..

 

[BanjoKazooiePro]

If only it was this easy.

 

[3xSwords]

Here's some stuff you can add to your guide. Grab release>nair it's auto tipper for both hits and is good damage. Just another option for the kill. Also to always land the tipper dash attack out of grab release you have to dash and down on c-stick at the same time. The only thing that screws this up is the lag on Marth's grab release animation which can screw up the buffering so that you run a little before you dash attack but that just means delay your timing a bit.

Question: Which way should I DI if I get hit with his dash attack?

 

[clowsui]

How do you DS out of grab release? Like do you jump towards them after the GR or what?

 

[magikguy]

How do you DS out of grab release? Like do you jump towards them after the GR or what?

yeah i was wondering this also.

 

[**Havok**]

Here's some stuff you can add to your guide. Grab release>nair it's auto tipper for both hits and is good damage. Just another option for the kill. Also to always land the tipper dash attack out of grab release you have to dash and down on c-stick at the same time. The only thing that screws this up is the lag on Marth's grab release animation which can screw up the buffering so that you run a little before you dash attack but that just means delay your timing a bit.

Question: Which way should I DI if I get hit with his dash attack?

I've tried the Nair thing but its difficult to get consistently, so you have to buffer it? Tipper Nair kills super early, im going to test this soon.

You DI away, then tech away or into him (if he tornadoes you get caught if go into him), You just have to practice for a bit to get the timing down. At 0% its hard to tech away since you don't get much knockback.

How do you DS out of grab release? Like do you jump towards them after the GR or what?

this you actually have to practice, my method I run then SH and DS. I thought this was how everyone did it but i have a friend he told me he just runs towards them and does DS. Look at the 2nd video on the last part of the OP to see how to do it. It was the kill move in that game.

As for MK being able to glide past counter, this is true. However, what can he really do after that? He's in mid-glide, he'll have to glide under you, or risk you throwing the Bair at him and eating a hit. After that, you can recover pretty reliably, especially if you didn't waste your second jump. If he jumps out at you, you should be above him, and therefore at vertical advantage. Not really a threatening situation. Perhaps I might hold able on this tactic if I'm at high percentages, since the risk of being forced to the ledge might then lead to loss of a stock, but it's generally a well payed off tactic. MK's love whoring out that Glide Attack, and counters beats it.

the one thing im scared would be----full jump out, counter, he doesn't bite, cancels his glide then kills you with a Dair.

I need to keep trying this.

BTW that blocking dsmash tip is HUGE! Tippered it KILLS at %115 (with good DI) lol maybe sooner.

Seriously, UAIR IS GOOD. MK can't do **** while he's above you, and there is ground beneath your feet. Actaully, you just outright win in the air. The only thing to watch out for is Tornado.

Yea this works it's completely up to the MK if he lets you juggle him though, he can just jump away...and away...and away lol. But yes it does out range it!

Oh, and I forgot one important thing. You can Dolphin Slash out of Tornado if MK doesn't catch you in it properly. If you're near the top, and you manage to DI toward the center, spam UpB. I've killed Inui and M2k before by Dolphin Slashing out of tornado mid move, while they were at high percentages. Be careful not to Dolphin Slash if you are too much above MK though, as you'll miss, and most likely get punished by that annoying Nair, or a charged smash attack.

I usually go crazy on my control pressing jump and up-B over and over sometimes i get it sometimes i whiff which means a free dsmash for MK. At high percentages its good times

Last time I remember the lips of FD makes it a little hard to recover and MK exceeds more then Marth on that level..

yes, the recovery for marth on this stage is a bit worse because you can get caught under that lip (playing on the stage a lot helps, same with pokemon stadium) BUT there is absolutely no interruptions on your grab release whatsoever. The ceiling is the same as battlefield, yoshi's. Good ol' flat stage + its a neutral so in tournament you get it as a random.




Anyone have any random information they've been holding onto?


Added a few more tidbits, and an approaching section.

Will add more later.

 

[∫unk]

edit: nvm XD

 

[mikeHAZE]

They can actually DI out of the DB, but it's good to do to undiminish your moveset. If they start DI'ing out of it, make the second hit of the DB blue, so that way at least two of the hits will hit (if they DI it the
2nd red won't hit)

 

[J4pu]

DIing out of DS? **** that would be some insane reflex and finger movements.
I believe you mean they can DI out of DB.

 

[mikeHAZE]

**** it, that's why i dont use those abbreviations.

 

[J4pu]

Dancing Sword, Dolphin Slash; it's pretty easy to see why you would make that mistake.

 

[_Kadaj_]

nice spacing and control down tilt can't contain/control mk like that
i wish it could tho lol

 

[**Havok**]

nice spacing and control down tilt can't contain/control mk like that
i wish it could tho lol

mk's ftilt outranges, dtilt out prioritizes but it still contributes to a wall where MK has to work around. I've had experiences where the MK is doing dtilt of their own as I was doing mine and because of the timing I ended up hitting him.

But yea its not reliable but still useful

Anyone have any obscure details to add?

 

[_Kadaj_]

Mk can dash grab through d tilt sometimes

But d tilt should be used less than it would in other matches

Still good sometimes tho

 

[Iliad]

Why does no one think to say down+b to stop a nado spammer? >.>

A spam happy counter marth is going to make a spam happy nado MK think twice about spamming tornado if he's only going to get punished for it. Obviously you don't *spam* but use it intelligently, it doesn't take much prediction to know when MK is going to nado, so just pick your counters.

 

[Shaya]

In the same time you could do a downsmash or a forward smash that would do 14% or more if tipped instead of 8%.

 

[**Havok**]

Why does no one think to say down+b to stop a nado spammer? >.>

A spam happy counter marth is going to make a spam happy nado MK think twice about spamming tornado if he's only going to get punished for it. Obviously you don't *spam* but use it intelligently, it doesn't take much prediction to know when MK is going to nado, so just pick your counters.

The reason being that blocking and then punishing w/ side-B ends up being a better option because it refreshes moves, it deals %5-8 in worst case scenario. No doubt counter does help but if you stand still and counter the tornado can go right past you, you can be punished by an MK Dsmash while side -B can sometime give you the opportunity to stop half way/push him of the edge/use green to push him away making it so MK can only punish with dash attack or grab which won't be as bad especially if they keep dsmash fresh . Anyone with half a brain will eventually see that you're countering their tornado attempts so they'll start tornado'ing in front of your face, wait for counter to be nullified and then semi **** you with the rest of a tornado or at least put you in the air. On a super happy nado spammer noob, please, continue to counter. Someone smart will eventually catch on.

In the same time you could do a downsmash or a forward smash that would do 14% or more if tipped instead of 8%.

The thing is Fsmash doesn't come out faster, dsmash comes out faster BUT has more lag time. Fsmash has a hard time killing because its so slow compared to MK's downtilts and Ftilts. Yes, the fsmash will deal more dmg but dsmash kills more reliably (kills at %115 tippered, which is easy because MK's dtilts push you far enough for dmash to be tippered) using the piece of information that Pierce7 gave us (which in reality its only way to land this thing. otherwise its really hard). MK's size prevents Fsmash from being great, MK's dtilt and ftilt too (some other ones as well but these are the annoying ones that count on the ground).