DoH
meleeitonme.tumblr.com
Get back to Melee you ****er.
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Grand Old Thread: League of Legends!
- Thread starter JTB
- Start date
MalcolmM
Smash Lord
I jus started playing a few weeks ago. Add me guys! Name: Malceezy
I play Veigar mostly. Super fun. =D
I play Veigar mostly. Super fun. =D
prog
Priest of the Temple of Syrinx
GENTLEMEN.
i am back.
best...kass?
i am back.
best...kass?
Prog lets play sometime.
Stop being AFK when I invite you to games.
Stop being AFK when I invite you to games.
runningbrave
Smash Journeyman
Ahhh, thoroughly satisfied playing with you guys. 25 minute murdaaa. 22-5 kill count with maybe 100 damage done to our towers. Hahaha 
I will be back to Melee soon, DoH
I will be back to Melee soon, DoH
GG indeed runningbrave. Solid performance. We donged so hard. My Warwick was way sexier this time around, like 8-2-7 or something. It helps when we cripple the enemy jungler. ROFL at that Anivia hanging out in the middle of the map at the start of the game and then running towards the river instead of back to her tower. Triple ROFL at their whole team coming to fight us at level 1 in the jungle after we had already killed Anivia. I think our trade at the start of the game was 3-1 and I got first blood to spend on my razors before I ever killed a creep.
@ SamuraiPanda:
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=3689272#post3689272
Phreak says GP is on the remake list. Hope they listen to you.
@ SamuraiPanda:
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=3689272#post3689272
Phreak says GP is on the remake list. Hope they listen to you.
Jazriel
Smash Ace
Nooooooo, they can't touch GP. He's almost perfect. He requires an extremely comprehensive understanding of the game and the person playing him has to be perfect with their E timings for the first 15 minutes.
Q is inconsistent? That's BS. 50% crit rate (atma's, mastery, pdancer) is perfectly fine and reliable. If they're saying crit is unreliable then take out crit runes ffs.
The only thing that needs to be changed is his ulti. Just give it an AoE closer to Make It Rain and it'd be fine.
Nooo, not GP.
He requires an extremely comprehensive understanding of the game and the person playing him has to be perfect with their E timings for the first 15 minutes.Q is inconsistent? That's BS. 50% crit rate (atma's, mastery, pdancer) is perfectly fine and reliable. If they're saying crit is unreliable then take out crit runes ffs.
The only thing that needs to be changed is his ulti. Just give it an AoE closer to Make It Rain and it'd be fine.
Nooo, not GP.
what? GP is underpowered bro.
First SWF 5v5 inhouse game!!!!
Yessss
Good stuff guys takin the first and possibly only one we ever play! haha
Yessss
Good stuff guys takin the first and possibly only one we ever play! haha
Jazriel
Smash Ace
GP only needs his passive to apply on Parrrley and he's fine. I agree he's -slightly- underpowered, and is in need of just a little more to umph him. I general CD reduction on his QWE would also be in order, flat 20 and 25 sec CD on his WE are a little over the top when there're heroes like Galio, Morgana, and Garen. Ez's 9 sec flash also comes to mind.
Mostly GP looks weak because so people know how to play him effectively. All this ridiculous classification of "Critplank" and "Tankplank" and all that garbage, baddies being bad.
Mostly GP looks weak because so people know how to play him effectively. All this ridiculous classification of "Critplank" and "Tankplank" and all that garbage, baddies being bad.
Dekar173
Justice Man
Lmao.
If GP's E were any faster (base CD) he would severely gimp the people laning against him, completely breaking him as a character. If his W were made faster, he would never be disabled. If his Q were made faster, he would seriously outpoke any character in the game.
I think his CDs are fine, but a slight change or maybe making RS not scale with level but have a flat low CD would be fine.
His numbers on the other hand need tweaking, and his ult needs to be made much, MUCH more consistent (as suggested a billion times, make it like make it rain, keep the aoe size, and make the scaling apply roughly the same damage the cannonballs would).
GP is sexy in the right hands, like how new heimer was as demonstrated by dan dinh
new Heimer is the same as old heimer for Dan. He's never really given a **** about turrets except when he's drunk and/or lazy, lol.
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 22, 2006
- Messages
- 6,924
GP does NOT need Grog Soaked Blade on every Parley. Everyone wanting that change doesn't realize how garbage it is. Early on in the game they tried that change. It was the most overpowered thing LoL had ever seen and was reversed the very next week with an APOLOGY from Riot devs. Grog Soaked blade does true damage, in case you didn't know.
GP needs the following:
1. Passive % Armor Pen on Parley [that only affects parley]
2. More consistent ultimate by having it guaranteed to hit 1 cannonball at the beginning of it.
3. Allow Raise Moral to be used on himself (without taking damage) but only have the buff apply to GP unless its used on a minon.
4. After he uses Raise Moral on himself (not on a minon), apply Grog Soaked Blade to his next Parley.
5. Give him +armor/+MR when Remove Scurvy is on cooldown.
Done.
GP needs the following:
1. Passive % Armor Pen on Parley [that only affects parley]
2. More consistent ultimate by having it guaranteed to hit 1 cannonball at the beginning of it.
3. Allow Raise Moral to be used on himself (without taking damage) but only have the buff apply to GP unless its used on a minon.
4. After he uses Raise Moral on himself (not on a minon), apply Grog Soaked Blade to his next Parley.
5. Give him +armor/+MR when Remove Scurvy is on cooldown.
Done.
Caving in, playing Janna. Only thing I need to work on is ult placement for maximum disruption+assistance. Apart from that it's just slow whoever looks annoying, shield whoever attacks fastest or looks to take some damage, and piss people off with tornados.
Any recommended skills? I tried her first on a smurf with no runes so I tried ghost+clarity and flash+clarity, but maybe if I rock mp5/level runes I can skip clarity and maybe use cleanse flash, or replace clarity with clairvoyance?
Any recommended skills? I tried her first on a smurf with no runes so I tried ghost+clarity and flash+clarity, but maybe if I rock mp5/level runes I can skip clarity and maybe use cleanse flash, or replace clarity with clairvoyance?
cleanse ghost is what my 5-man AT Janna player runs. Cleanse is almost non-negotiable since being able to cast your ult at precisely the right moment is imperative to your team's success. Shield should basically always be on your carry. Of course it varies as the fight is breaking down, but when it's 5v5 and back and forth, you need to be lending them a free BF Sword and HP buffer.
Jazriel
Smash Ace
GP already gimps people in his lane horribly. If you know how to play GP really well you'd understand the the CD on his E is basically meaningless. The proper way to play GP is to (in order of priority): 1) Always E a Siege Minion 2) E 1 melee minion a wave.
As a person who has tested the timing for this extensively (if you ever want to recall as GP, do it 8-10 seconds after a wave has spawned, when you arrive at fountain and finish buying your items you'll be able to sit at Nexus and only wait about 2 seconds for the next wave, giving you another double deny to make up for the fact that you didn't deny on the wave you just recalled past. Also, double denying has significant meanings for the lane control of your lane etc etc), E sits there available half the time, because it's just so important to get the Siege Minions. Denying ranged creeps does nothing really.
Reducing the CD on his E simply makes it ever so slightly more useful late-game, where GP can go from farming a lane to helping his allies push a lane. And that's the true strength of E, asides from how amazing it is early game, is that it's one of the best pushing skills I've seen late-game.
Reducing the CD on his W, this is a little debatable, but really not that overpowered. Building tanky lowers his damage anyways (unless you build GP like me) so having a shorter CD on W doesn't make him an invincible CC-immune monster-carry. Nor does having a faster W on a GP who's opted more for the +dmg route make him a monster carry. MF with double BT can keep her life up almost as well, and she's a ranged hero with a reliable AoE ult that now works with LW.
Not to mention that good GP's use W more for the timing than anything else, and it's a timing dependent on their positioning of GP as a melee hero. A faster W isn't going to do a whole lot.
@Samurai Panda:
I did not realize GSB did True Damage, that's kinda funny.
However you said "Early on in the game." We're no longer there. We have heroes like Garen, Lux, Galio, MF, Pantheon, Sona(!), etc. All those heroes have strong lane presence and the ability to zone well (or are just really really good). Having a melee hero with early-game mana problems with a very strong harass and a solid contender for a 1v2 lane (Like those even exist anymore) isn't going to suddenly make him OP. There are plenty of heroes who are already up there.
As for your ideas, I think they're quite off. Give Parrrley a built in LW? Why not just make Parrrley do True Damage and remove it's chance to crit? A janky combo with E to make Q apply his passive? Why not just make his passive apply to GSB like it should (due to its poorly worded tooltip). Also, having him have to apply E on himself (which is a ridiculous idea in itself) just so he can improve his Q for harassing? That's completely negating the point of his early-game potential. I don't see any other heroes with combos that defeat their own purpose. MF's Strut and Double Up certainly don't contradict each other in terms of mana usage and lane-control. Urgot is entirely designed for his combo to enable his harassing.
Really, GP doesn't need a whole lot to become a more solid pick. That Atma's was unchanged in lieu of the leaked patch was incredible. GP simply needs to be played in the hands of a strong player who really understands the character (I would reference myself but I'm not done creating my custom runepage for GP and I rarely have a team that would properly benefit from my playing GP). Applying GSB to his Q will enhance his early-game, because his late-game is fine.
And they need to buff his ulti, this is implied in every word I say about GP. Having a Yi with 20 health recall near a tower at lvl 2 and I ulti him dead on and he lives is ridiculous.
As a person who has tested the timing for this extensively (if you ever want to recall as GP, do it 8-10 seconds after a wave has spawned, when you arrive at fountain and finish buying your items you'll be able to sit at Nexus and only wait about 2 seconds for the next wave, giving you another double deny to make up for the fact that you didn't deny on the wave you just recalled past. Also, double denying has significant meanings for the lane control of your lane etc etc), E sits there available half the time, because it's just so important to get the Siege Minions. Denying ranged creeps does nothing really.
Reducing the CD on his E simply makes it ever so slightly more useful late-game, where GP can go from farming a lane to helping his allies push a lane. And that's the true strength of E, asides from how amazing it is early game, is that it's one of the best pushing skills I've seen late-game.
Reducing the CD on his W, this is a little debatable, but really not that overpowered. Building tanky lowers his damage anyways (unless you build GP like me) so having a shorter CD on W doesn't make him an invincible CC-immune monster-carry. Nor does having a faster W on a GP who's opted more for the +dmg route make him a monster carry. MF with double BT can keep her life up almost as well, and she's a ranged hero with a reliable AoE ult that now works with LW.
Not to mention that good GP's use W more for the timing than anything else, and it's a timing dependent on their positioning of GP as a melee hero. A faster W isn't going to do a whole lot.
@Samurai Panda:
I did not realize GSB did True Damage, that's kinda funny.
However you said "Early on in the game." We're no longer there. We have heroes like Garen, Lux, Galio, MF, Pantheon, Sona(!), etc. All those heroes have strong lane presence and the ability to zone well (or are just really really good). Having a melee hero with early-game mana problems with a very strong harass and a solid contender for a 1v2 lane (Like those even exist anymore) isn't going to suddenly make him OP. There are plenty of heroes who are already up there.
As for your ideas, I think they're quite off. Give Parrrley a built in LW? Why not just make Parrrley do True Damage and remove it's chance to crit? A janky combo with E to make Q apply his passive? Why not just make his passive apply to GSB like it should (due to its poorly worded tooltip). Also, having him have to apply E on himself (which is a ridiculous idea in itself) just so he can improve his Q for harassing? That's completely negating the point of his early-game potential. I don't see any other heroes with combos that defeat their own purpose. MF's Strut and Double Up certainly don't contradict each other in terms of mana usage and lane-control. Urgot is entirely designed for his combo to enable his harassing.
Really, GP doesn't need a whole lot to become a more solid pick. That Atma's was unchanged in lieu of the leaked patch was incredible. GP simply needs to be played in the hands of a strong player who really understands the character (I would reference myself but I'm not done creating my custom runepage for GP and I rarely have a team that would properly benefit from my playing GP). Applying GSB to his Q will enhance his early-game, because his late-game is fine.
And they need to buff his ulti, this is implied in every word I say about GP. Having a Yi with 20 health recall near a tower at lvl 2 and I ulti him dead on and he lives is ridiculous.
...Do you SERIOUSLY... like, SERIOUSLY SERIOUSLY HONEST TO GOD think that reducing the CD on his E would do nothing? Do YOU know how to play Gangplank? You have your E off CD during laning... WHAT? Yes, denying siege creep is important. Do you have to ever wait in order to do this? HELL ****ING NO, 
come on, you're seriously not trolling us with that portion of your post?
come on, you're seriously not trolling us with that portion of your post?
Jazriel
Smash Ace
I have tested GP with and without numerous levels of CDR from a combination of masteries and Celerity Glyphs/Quints (Don't have Focus')....Do you SERIOUSLY... like, SERIOUSLY SERIOUSLY HONEST TO GOD think that reducing the CD on his E would do nothing? Do YOU know how to play Gangplank? You have your E off CD during laning... WHAT? Yes, denying siege creep is important. Do you have to ever wait in order to do this? HELL ****ING NO,
come on, you're seriously not trolling us with that portion of your post?
Having anywhere from a 25 sec CD to a 22 sec CD at level 1 changes nothing. If you are denying Ranged minions, you are playing GP wrong. Waves spawn every 30 seconds, every 90 seconds a Siege Minion spawns. The BEST THAT YOU CAN POSSIBLY DO, is have your lane set-up in such a way that you can deny 1 melee creep EVERY wave AND deny EVERY Siege Minion. I have only ever had this happen a few times, and even then, I could not string together more than 2 denies of Siege + Melee minion denies from the same wave.
I would suggest you look over your numbers or play a practice game with GP to see just how difficult it is to PERFECTLY deny AS MANY CREEPS as you can while maintaining the LARGEST POSSIBLE XP gap.
Changing the CD on RM by a second or two isn't going to significantly change this.
If RM had a 30 sec cooldown, you would only ever be able to deny 1 creep a wave. The 25 sec cooldown allows an eventual hiccough where you can get 2 creep denies in (if you're lucky this'll be a siege wave) though this depends HIGHLY on what your lane comp is vs theirs.
Changing RM to say a 22 sec CD or even a 24 sec CD simply gives him slightly more flexibility to ensure that he can get the 1 minion/wave deny.
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 22, 2006
- Messages
- 6,924
Every 6 seconds (less with CDR) he gets a ranged physical attack that deals 100% of his attack damage + a bit extra, chance to crit, and deals 50 (+10 per level) TRUE DAMAGE?
Thats OP. Very OP.
Elementz's idea, actually. Speccing Plank as a durable melee DPS is actually rather difficult given how poorly his damage scales without the right itemization. The % pen is mostly to help him itemize easier and open up more variety.
Actually, I thought the idea was rather creative. This would help him out immensely in teamfights, and the application of GSB after using E on himself is NOT for the laning phase (although it gives options there) because you should be using E to deny. Its for teamfights to give him a bit more utility by having a ranged healing debuff (sniping a Sona in the back with a healing debuff without running through their tanks would be a welcome addition to GP's arsenal).
Also, I know GP rather well.
OK guys so I've been thinking about a strategy for awhile and I wanna start getting some feedback and maybe a group of people to help me try it out in some ranked 5 mans on my smurf in the near future when I unlock Pantheon on that account.
My Thought Process: Essentially jungle play is currently required in competitive play and every once in awhile people ***** about how solo top is a farm fest and you need a jungler and the fact that there is no choice makes this a stupid dynamic and RIOT NEEDS TO DO SOMETHING! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
This whining has gotten me thinking... Is there a way to abuse the standard laning and jungling layout so that you can turn the strengths of this setup against the opposing team? My first thought that came to mind was COMPLETELY denying solo top of all gold and experience with a strong lane combo involving Gangplank pulling the lane and an abusive champion vs. champion laner. The natural choice for this is Pantheon. This sounds great to me, I love it, Gangplank pulls the lane and he and Pantheon stand behind the opposing ranged creeps, with unbelievable level 1 fighting power between a powered up Pantheon with spear shot (raise moral +AD ftw
) and GP with imba Grog-soaked blade. No one hero can do anything about this, they're screwed.
The rest of the team is what is difficult to put together. We have already devoted 2 slots of the team to mediocre characters, so we better figure out a unified and powerful strategy to put our top advantage to good use. What we do have though are 2 global ults, so the natural flow from here is putting together a super powered map control team. The way I see it... and around here my plan is starting to get pretty half baked... we could run TF and Shen in addition to have obscene global presence, leaving one more slot in bot lane to go along with Shen. However, I see a lack of real pushing power with this team, so my current working theory is putting Sivir mid to give us a dedicated pushing champ and pairing AP TF bot with Shen. There's another reason for Sivir that I'll describe in the next paragraph.
The one big problem I see with a team without a jungler is that maintaining buff and dragon control without a jungler is quite difficult, but it is still completely necessary. Here's where I might start losing some people, lol, but please bear with me! I think this is a really good idea... There are 2 parts to my jungle controlling theory here...
1. Smite on Panthoen and Shen, Teleport on TF, Sivir and GP. Ghost or Flash on the 2nd slot on all of them.
2. Super Super Super Super Aggressive Warding from Shen and Pantheon. I'm not talking about your standard, "derp I've warded dragon and the bush by the sidelanes" crap... I'm talking about "hmm, I backed with 600 gold on shen/pantheon, I guess I'll buy 6 wards"
Now, how the hell does this all fit together and what does Sivir have to do with it? OK, first, sivir. Sivir starts absolutely MURDERING wraith camps starting at level 3 (level 2 boomerrang blade). She can push mid, go MIA, **** wraith camp and be back without loss, giving her a big gold/level advantage over her opponent. The MIA threat is also huge because with teleport, she's occasionally going to be teleporting to a ward for a 3 man gank out of nowhere on their jungler. Shen and Pantheon having smite also gives us the ability to snag both our mana golem and small golem camps early without missing out on any laning. Tapping into extra experience pool and securing a buff. This also makes our jungle ganking brutal with buff/dragon stealing potential. ALSO, this means that if Pantheon and Gangplank have done their job correctly and pulled the lane properly and denied the opponent of all gold and exp, Gangplank should be able to manage the denial all by himself, freeing Pantheon to jungle and roam on their side of mid. Same for Shen in bot... if the lane gets pushed, he can duck off and farm jungle to allow TF some extra exp and last hits in a safe area. Essentially, instead of thinking of a Blue and Purple jungle devided by the river, think of it as a Top and Bottom jungle, devided by mid. Shen's part-time jungling bot, Pantheon's part-time jungling top. This is where the warding comes in... since I expect both of these champs to have a good amount of time to roam the jungle, they are going to ward EVERYTHING. I want it to look like we have ****ing maphack on from 10 minutes onward. I don't want the opponent to ever enter our jungle without us knowing about it (wards on the 4 entrance points to the jungle) and I don't want them to have access to their jungle creep without us knowing about it (wards on the 5 jungle creep camps). In fact, I always want to know roughly where their whole team is. Once we have this, we're just going to continue to make top lane a death trap and use our map control to deny them from getting farmed from jungle. This means their only reliable source of gold and experience will be mid and bot lanes, while we have the jungle, top, mid, and bot. Then it's simply about playing tight and not allowing any ridiculous comebacks.
So here's what we need to start ******* people over hard with a gay and janky strategy, LOL:
- Everyone should be a competent last hitter and generally be familiar with how to lane properly. Main account needs to be 30, 20+ smurfs are cool so long as they have reasonable runes and stuff if you don't wantto risk your main's rating and **** on theorycrafting.
- A Pantheon player who is comfortable both with hard zoning and with jungling (Me!)
- A Gangplank player with Flat CD on glyphs and quints who can play the deny game (only last hit... in fact, count creeps and if last hitting will actually push the lane, don't even last hit ****it)
- A Shen player who is diligent about warding and comfortable with jungling
- Sivir and TF players who can play safely and not lose their lanes. TF should be able to reliable pull gold cards quickly too. The biggest thing needed in these roles is just conservative play so that they can get farmed up while we stick it in the opposing team's butt.
-General map awareness from everyone
-Some form of voicechat. I dun really like vent and much prefer teamspeak or skype, but really whatever we can get everyone on. Coordination is key with a team like this, so yea, I think this is non-negotiable.
Ganking should be easy enough from Pantheon and/or Shen, so I really don't want any ramboing for kills solo, always gangbang. The whole point of the team is to abuse map control gained by making the game 3v5 by ******* over their top at the begining and jungler in the early - mid game.
So yea, there's that, what do people think? Anyone wanna try this out? For banning and picking strategy, I think Shen is the one we need to worry about securing the most, followed by TF and Pantheon. GP and Sivir are rare picks so we can probably put them off a little, though without GP it all goes to hell, so maybe we prioritize him higher. I think the 2 important bans are Twitch (invisibility makes everything really hard actually) and Sona (could potentially **** up our bot lane). AoE spammers like Amumu and Galio seem like less of a problem because of how we'll be able to pick our fights early which should leverage into a large enough advantage that their lategame power won't have time to kick in.
My Thought Process: Essentially jungle play is currently required in competitive play and every once in awhile people ***** about how solo top is a farm fest and you need a jungler and the fact that there is no choice makes this a stupid dynamic and RIOT NEEDS TO DO SOMETHING! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!
This whining has gotten me thinking... Is there a way to abuse the standard laning and jungling layout so that you can turn the strengths of this setup against the opposing team? My first thought that came to mind was COMPLETELY denying solo top of all gold and experience with a strong lane combo involving Gangplank pulling the lane and an abusive champion vs. champion laner. The natural choice for this is Pantheon. This sounds great to me, I love it, Gangplank pulls the lane and he and Pantheon stand behind the opposing ranged creeps, with unbelievable level 1 fighting power between a powered up Pantheon with spear shot (raise moral +AD ftw
) and GP with imba Grog-soaked blade. No one hero can do anything about this, they're screwed.The rest of the team is what is difficult to put together. We have already devoted 2 slots of the team to mediocre characters, so we better figure out a unified and powerful strategy to put our top advantage to good use. What we do have though are 2 global ults, so the natural flow from here is putting together a super powered map control team. The way I see it... and around here my plan is starting to get pretty half baked... we could run TF and Shen in addition to have obscene global presence, leaving one more slot in bot lane to go along with Shen. However, I see a lack of real pushing power with this team, so my current working theory is putting Sivir mid to give us a dedicated pushing champ and pairing AP TF bot with Shen. There's another reason for Sivir that I'll describe in the next paragraph.
The one big problem I see with a team without a jungler is that maintaining buff and dragon control without a jungler is quite difficult, but it is still completely necessary. Here's where I might start losing some people, lol, but please bear with me! I think this is a really good idea... There are 2 parts to my jungle controlling theory here...
1. Smite on Panthoen and Shen, Teleport on TF, Sivir and GP. Ghost or Flash on the 2nd slot on all of them.
2. Super Super Super Super Aggressive Warding from Shen and Pantheon. I'm not talking about your standard, "derp I've warded dragon and the bush by the sidelanes" crap... I'm talking about "hmm, I backed with 600 gold on shen/pantheon, I guess I'll buy 6 wards"
Now, how the hell does this all fit together and what does Sivir have to do with it? OK, first, sivir. Sivir starts absolutely MURDERING wraith camps starting at level 3 (level 2 boomerrang blade). She can push mid, go MIA, **** wraith camp and be back without loss, giving her a big gold/level advantage over her opponent. The MIA threat is also huge because with teleport, she's occasionally going to be teleporting to a ward for a 3 man gank out of nowhere on their jungler. Shen and Pantheon having smite also gives us the ability to snag both our mana golem and small golem camps early without missing out on any laning. Tapping into extra experience pool and securing a buff. This also makes our jungle ganking brutal with buff/dragon stealing potential. ALSO, this means that if Pantheon and Gangplank have done their job correctly and pulled the lane properly and denied the opponent of all gold and exp, Gangplank should be able to manage the denial all by himself, freeing Pantheon to jungle and roam on their side of mid. Same for Shen in bot... if the lane gets pushed, he can duck off and farm jungle to allow TF some extra exp and last hits in a safe area. Essentially, instead of thinking of a Blue and Purple jungle devided by the river, think of it as a Top and Bottom jungle, devided by mid. Shen's part-time jungling bot, Pantheon's part-time jungling top. This is where the warding comes in... since I expect both of these champs to have a good amount of time to roam the jungle, they are going to ward EVERYTHING. I want it to look like we have ****ing maphack on from 10 minutes onward. I don't want the opponent to ever enter our jungle without us knowing about it (wards on the 4 entrance points to the jungle) and I don't want them to have access to their jungle creep without us knowing about it (wards on the 5 jungle creep camps). In fact, I always want to know roughly where their whole team is. Once we have this, we're just going to continue to make top lane a death trap and use our map control to deny them from getting farmed from jungle. This means their only reliable source of gold and experience will be mid and bot lanes, while we have the jungle, top, mid, and bot. Then it's simply about playing tight and not allowing any ridiculous comebacks.
So here's what we need to start ******* people over hard with a gay and janky strategy, LOL:
- Everyone should be a competent last hitter and generally be familiar with how to lane properly. Main account needs to be 30, 20+ smurfs are cool so long as they have reasonable runes and stuff if you don't wantto risk your main's rating and **** on theorycrafting.
- A Pantheon player who is comfortable both with hard zoning and with jungling (Me!)
- A Gangplank player with Flat CD on glyphs and quints who can play the deny game (only last hit... in fact, count creeps and if last hitting will actually push the lane, don't even last hit ****it
)- A Shen player who is diligent about warding and comfortable with jungling
- Sivir and TF players who can play safely and not lose their lanes. TF should be able to reliable pull gold cards quickly too
. The biggest thing needed in these roles is just conservative play so that they can get farmed up while we stick it in the opposing team's butt.-General map awareness from everyone
-Some form of voicechat. I dun really like vent and much prefer teamspeak or skype, but really whatever we can get everyone on. Coordination is key with a team like this, so yea, I think this is non-negotiable.
Ganking should be easy enough from Pantheon and/or Shen, so I really don't want any ramboing for kills solo, always gangbang. The whole point of the team is to abuse map control gained by making the game 3v5 by ******* over their top at the begining and jungler in the early - mid game.
So yea, there's that, what do people think? Anyone wanna try this out? For banning and picking strategy, I think Shen is the one we need to worry about securing the most, followed by TF and Pantheon. GP and Sivir are rare picks so we can probably put them off a little, though without GP it all goes to hell, so maybe we prioritize him higher. I think the 2 important bans are Twitch (invisibility makes everything really hard actually) and Sona (could potentially **** up our bot lane). AoE spammers like Amumu and Galio seem like less of a problem because of how we'll be able to pick our fights early which should leverage into a large enough advantage that their lategame power won't have time to kick in.
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
- Messages
- 6,860
Not having a jungler... it's only going to be useful if their money-dependant carry is in top lane getting very starved of both exp and gold, and doesn't opt to switch with someone in a different lane better suited for a 1v2 lane (which you can do before you even get to your lanes- once you see that the enemy team doesn't have a jungler).
I mean like at least 1 or 2 levels below the 2 guys harassing the solo, and not getting gold. (this being independent of pirate exp denial.) The jungle control and gank support you get from having a jungler is huge enough to outweigh the loss of not being able to farm very well and having the 1v2 solo being slightly underleveled for being a solo, imo. You'd have to SUPER deny their solo.
Also, I think the team would be better off with someone not named Sivir. Ideally, I'd pick a champion that can hold a lane really well and help out with scuffles at dragon, like Mordekaiser, maybe.
That said, I'd give it a go.
I mean like at least 1 or 2 levels below the 2 guys harassing the solo, and not getting gold. (this being independent of pirate exp denial.) The jungle control and gank support you get from having a jungler is huge enough to outweigh the loss of not being able to farm very well and having the 1v2 solo being slightly underleveled for being a solo, imo. You'd have to SUPER deny their solo.
Also, I think the team would be better off with someone not named Sivir. Ideally, I'd pick a champion that can hold a lane really well and help out with scuffles at dragon, like Mordekaiser, maybe.
That said, I'd give it a go.
I would definitely be in and could spot the GP or Sivir roles.
I had a somewhat similar idea with Sivir, teleports and wards: in a side lane, throw a ward in a bush on the opposite side of the river. Let that lane get pushed back a bit and have 1 or 2 people teleport to the ward for a guaranteed gank (4v2 should be close to a guarantee unless we're failures). If Sivir and maybe another pusher or two come for the gank (AD TF, maybe) the tower should fall quickly. If the enemy tries to counterpush the lanes that TP'd down, have the original people in the lane TP up to those lanes and stop it.
I had a somewhat similar idea with Sivir, teleports and wards: in a side lane, throw a ward in a bush on the opposite side of the river. Let that lane get pushed back a bit and have 1 or 2 people teleport to the ward for a guaranteed gank (4v2 should be close to a guarantee unless we're failures). If Sivir and maybe another pusher or two come for the gank (AD TF, maybe) the tower should fall quickly. If the enemy tries to counterpush the lanes that TP'd down, have the original people in the lane TP up to those lanes and stop it.
Jazriel
Smash Ace
GSB isn't 50 +10/lvl damage...
It's 5 + 1/lvl.
[Edit] Mogwai, that sounds awesome. I would love to lend my Sivir/GP skills.
It's 5 + 1/lvl.
[Edit] Mogwai, that sounds awesome. I would love to lend my Sivir/GP skills.
per second, for 10 seconds, lol
I think your pusher needs to at least be ranged... I mean, morde theoretically works for the exact same reasons in lane, but I'm concerned about the opposing team getting rocked and then having the ability to turtle on inhib towers effectively. I dunno, requires normal game testing IMO. Let's try to set some stuff up next week in normal guiz. If it looks good, we can test the ranked waters.Not having a jungler... it's only going to be useful if their money-dependant carry is in top lane getting very starved of both exp and gold, and doesn't opt to switch with someone in a different lane better suited for a 1v2 lane (which you can do before you even get to your lanes- once you see that the enemy team doesn't have a jungler).
I mean like at least 1 or 2 levels below the 2 guys harassing the solo, and not getting gold. (this being independent of pirate exp denial.) The jungle control and gank support you get from having a jungler is huge enough to outweigh the loss of not being able to farm very well and having the 1v2 solo being slightly underleveled for being a solo, imo. You'd have to SUPER deny their solo.
Also, I think the team would be better off with someone not named Sivir. Ideally, I'd pick a champion that can hold a lane really well and help out with scuffles at dragon, like Mordekaiser, maybe.
That said, I'd give it a go.
And that's the reason you put pantheon there with pirate. I'm talking 100% denial. Like, no joke, 100%.
SamuraiPanda
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 22, 2006
- Messages
- 6,924
Sorry Mog, that team comp wouldn't work. No strong initiator and it relies on people getting stacked and/or being gankable.
Jungle is NOT necessary, contrary to popular belief. And there are tons of awesome 2v1 lane comps that will shut down **** near any solo character (GP + strong harrasser is one, AP Gragas is another). Any combination that can zone their opponent is doing the same thing that denying accomplishes. If I get my lane opponents low, I wont deny nearly as often because I'll save the mana to zone them out of ALL the creeps rather than 1 at a time.
Also, the reason why jungling isn't necessary is quite simple. Wards. Coordinated and experienced teams can EASILY shut down junglers with wards placed early on and/or clairvoyance on your most experienced jungler. My friend knows the jungle so well that he can tab to look at their creep count and he knows exactly where they are and the order they used. With intelligent use of smite steals (stealing their big wraith at level 1 for example) and getting a mid that push to their tower then do your own wraiths/small jungle creeps (Trynd, Mord, Gragas, etc.), plus smart wards/cvs... They won't be able to jungle at all.
Unfortunately, that requires too much coordination for solo queue.
Basic math ftw?
Jungle is NOT necessary, contrary to popular belief. And there are tons of awesome 2v1 lane comps that will shut down **** near any solo character (GP + strong harrasser is one, AP Gragas is another). Any combination that can zone their opponent is doing the same thing that denying accomplishes. If I get my lane opponents low, I wont deny nearly as often because I'll save the mana to zone them out of ALL the creeps rather than 1 at a time.
Also, the reason why jungling isn't necessary is quite simple. Wards. Coordinated and experienced teams can EASILY shut down junglers with wards placed early on and/or clairvoyance on your most experienced jungler. My friend knows the jungle so well that he can tab to look at their creep count and he knows exactly where they are and the order they used. With intelligent use of smite steals (stealing their big wraith at level 1 for example) and getting a mid that push to their tower then do your own wraiths/small jungle creeps (Trynd, Mord, Gragas, etc.), plus smart wards/cvs... They won't be able to jungle at all.
Unfortunately, that requires too much coordination for solo queue.
5 + 1/lvl PER SECOND OVER 10 SECONDS. So overall its 50 +10/lvl.
Basic math ftw?
john!
Smash Hero
The team's goal is to avoid a team fight, right? So why would they need an initiator?
Jazriel
Smash Ace
Oh noez, his 60 True Damage nuke is going to hurt me so much. 6 damage a sec with 50% reduced healing vs 6 base regen (a very low number) means *Gasp* It'll do a total of 30 damage! Oh my god, that's so gamebreaking I can't believe it. How could they ever do something like that.
Most chars have a base regen of ~7-8 and SoS ups that to ~12 by level 2-3.
Oh em gee, GSB is soooooo imba.
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
- Messages
- 6,860
It's absolutely necessary if you don't have any global teleports in the top lane. Wards can't account for an extra person at dragon, nor do they make up for your opponents' jungler planting pink wards.
Leacero
Smash Lord
ITT: tl;dr
It's funny Mogwai, since I was thinking that right now the 1-1-2+jungler setup is the reason why there is so much **** turtling right now. You have to rely on a lane being stupid and pushing up when they know there's a WW out there with blue+red buff, or your mid dominating the other so hard that they force plays. You can be ballsy in your lane when you know where people are, but the permanent MIA on the jungler makes (good) players super cautious.
Right before your post I was talking to my buddy on Vent and we were thinking that it would be ridiculous fun to do the older 2-1-2 setup and stick Ashe+Janna up in top and completely murder the solo. No need even to last hit, because you don't need items when your opponent doesn't have any but is 3 levels lower than you. And remember how I mentioned teleganking? What a fun way to countergank a jungler who comes to help and suddenly wreck TWO characters' exp growth; and of course somebody's suddenly sitting on two shiny jungle buffs. And then you take the tower.
I'm down. Let's do it I was also interested in playing TF but my first games with him have been.... sub-optimal.
(Also, Urgot is one of those champs who is fantastic at murdering a 2v1 lane, funnily enough. I'd love to try a Panth Urgot lane one time and see how badly we could shut somebody down)
Jazriel: GSB is so ridiculously good--particularly when coupled with a solid harasser like Panth--because of how long it lasts, not specifically the damage (which is great but hardly imba). That's 10 seconds where using a potion becomes a waste. Then Panth runs up and starts zoning you with a spear that would eat up all the damage that potion might have healed.
Right before your post I was talking to my buddy on Vent and we were thinking that it would be ridiculous fun to do the older 2-1-2 setup and stick Ashe+Janna up in top and completely murder the solo. No need even to last hit, because you don't need items when your opponent doesn't have any but is 3 levels lower than you. And remember how I mentioned teleganking? What a fun way to countergank a jungler who comes to help and suddenly wreck TWO characters' exp growth; and of course somebody's suddenly sitting on two shiny jungle buffs. And then you take the tower.
I'm down. Let's do it
I was also interested in playing TF but my first games with him have been.... sub-optimal.(Also, Urgot is one of those champs who is fantastic at murdering a 2v1 lane, funnily enough. I'd love to try a Panth Urgot lane one time and see how badly we could shut somebody down)
Jazriel: GSB is so ridiculously good--particularly when coupled with a solid harasser like Panth--because of how long it lasts, not specifically the damage (which is great but hardly imba). That's 10 seconds where using a potion becomes a waste. Then Panth runs up and starts zoning you with a spear that would eat up all the damage that potion might have healed.
your... everything... is so wrong here...
ok, let me try to break this down...
applying GSB on parly does this..
+50 + 10 * level damage onto your nuke, + reduced healing regen, which actually means that the bonus effective damage dealt (assuming they don't already have a potion up) is 50 + 10 * level + their HP/5 (you eat 50% of that for 10 seconds, math is hard, derp).
so you're telling me that making Parley hit for like 76 more damage at level 2 isn't going to break him? like, do you seriously understand how unfun and ****ing broken this was to play against? GP was the total laning package when this worked, he pulled the lane and didn't need help zoning because he basically had a 150+ damage nuke at level 2 that made potions completely worthless. I just... don't understand how you don't understand
Vyke
Smash Champion
Grasping at straws, tbh.
All Gangplank needs is another small push in the right direction.
All Gangplank needs is another small push in the right direction.
Dingding123
Smash Journeyman
Dingding
LoL Tag: Dingding123
LoL Main: Rammus, Veigar; Alt: Ashe
LoL Tag: Dingding123
LoL Main: Rammus, Veigar; Alt: Ashe
Rappster
Smash Ace
i'm sorry if i sound dumb, but what's so good about the dragon?
is that the same as the dragon?
or better yet, can you send me a link that would have such things?
is that the same as the dragon?
or better yet, can you send me a link that would have such things?
Jazriel
Smash Ace
your... everything... is so wrong here...
ok, let me try to break this down...
applying GSB on parly does this..
+50 + 10 * level damage onto your nuke, + reduced healing regen, which actually means that the bonus effective damage dealt (assuming they don't already have a potion up) is 50 + 10 * level + their HP/5 (you eat 50% of that for 10 seconds, math is hard, derp).
so you're telling me that making Parley hit for like 76 more damage at level 2 isn't going to break him? like, do you seriously understand how unfun and ****ing broken this was to play against? GP was the total laning package when this worked, he pulled the lane and didn't need help zoning because he basically had a 150+ damage nuke at level 2 that made potions completely worthless. I just... don't understand how you don't understand
Speaking of math fail, I totally forgot that values in LoL are per 5 seconds. That being the case, 1) GSB hurts more than I thought, and 2) Why not just nerf it's damage/duration slightly and make it Magic Damage?
Also, GSB isn't 5+1/level, I played a game as GP earlier tonight and it was 5 dmg at level 1, and 6 dmg at level 3. [Edit] This was on the tooltip in-game, so I'm guessing that the wiki information isn't very accurate.
As for "unfun" and "broken" to play against, there are a lot of things like that. Sona and Lux's passive comes to mind. However, I do like GP's passive as it is, and would hate to see it changed. So maybe GP's small push could come from some other direction than having Q apply his Passive.
Durr durr yay wiki:
52 base damage, +3 damage per level.
GSB: 5 magic damage +1 damage per level.
Q: 20, 55, 90 base damage
At level 2 you're looking at a 70 damage nuke (that's affected by armour) applying a skill that does 6 damage (that's affect by magic resist).
Let's say average starting armour is 25, that's 20% damage reduction. That makes his Q at level 2 do 56 damage. His GSB would do 6 damage per second for a total of 60 damage, this would do (assuming magic res of 30 for 23% reduction) 46 damage.
So you're looking at an initial hit of 56 + 4.6 damage and then lingering damage of 4.6. per second.
That's not really a big nuke... Sona's passive + Q at level 2 is comparable in damage, but is more spammable, and is done at a further range.
"This is a terrible idea Jason. I really don't like this." ~Virg
We kill baron. We roll face. We take three towers and an inhib. We win a game we were losing.
We kill baron. We roll face. We take three towers and an inhib. We win a game we were losing.
If they had any wards there, any at all, we would have gotten rocked. It was pure luck.
ruin`
Smash Journeyman
Giving your opponents no credit=doing baron without vision ward.