Got a question! Sheik Q&A & FAQ

[Tristan_win]

Okay, done with school and the drama of my life... for now. I'll update my ftilt into usmash thread sometime today.

With that said I was wondering if anyone had any other research being prefermed other then me and savior.

Right now off the top of my head I got the
decays
ftilt combos
and now I'm thinking about adding throw tech chasing. Which would constant of roughly studying of how sheik throws can force someone to land ontop of the platform above her.

I'll most likely think of more things to test as the summer goes on but those are the three that are in my mind right now. Does anyone have something would like to test?

EDIT: Oh that's right... Since I didn't go to apex I guess that means I got my *** kicked by default. ~sighs~ So I'll throw together a chain thread as well... I guess.

 

[BRANman]

@saviorslegacy- in your video it says to use c stick. How am i supposed to analog stick, hold b, and c stick to chain lock?
Thanks for the help

 

[East]

@saviorslegacy- in your video it says to use c stick. How am i supposed to analog stick, hold b, and c stick to chain lock?
Thanks for the help

All sheik players have a highly trained pet spider helping them on their controller during their matches.

Spoiler

In truth, I never understood that either.

 

[legion598]

I was wondering if anyone would have an objection to me making a small guide on the strategic uses of DACUS it wont be a guide neccissarily on the input for the DACUS -- theres already one of those-- it will mostly be on the applications of DACUS and maybe some matchup specific uses for it

 

[Lythium]

@saviorslegacy- in your video it says to use c stick. How am i supposed to analog stick, hold b, and c stick to chain lock?
Thanks for the help

Use the claw configuration. Left thumb on analog, right index finger on B, and right thumb on C stick.

All sheik players have a highly trained pet spiders helping them on their controller during their matches.

Spoiler

In truth, I never understood that either.

I wish.

 

[BRANman]

*sigh* claw is a pain I guess I'll just have to get used to

Wait I was trying this out and for me the c-stick didn't really do anything for the chain lock. Do I need to reconfigure my controller?

 

[East]

Grabs

So a buddy of mine plays DeDeDe and his strategy is to grab like it's going out of style. It's like he's looking for a do-see-do partner, and I'm the only person around. As to why this is his pretty much his only strategy, I don't know but I've figured out it's not at all hard to beat, it just involves me crossing him up, which I've started doing with the Nair or Bair. For funzies I've depicted my current strategy via photoshop:

It's pretty simple. Just don't approach from the front. : /

Now my question is, I'm thinking about the future, and about when he'll get wise to my game and start turning around. I was wondering do I have any options, or are there any suggestions about how I could mix this up, to y'know keep him guessing?

I'm asking of course, so this doesn't happen:

Thanks.​

 

[BRANman]

@East - DACUS? Needle storm? (Just some suggestions but then again, I am a nub so theres probably better answers out there)

@saviorslegacy - i wish i had a vid to show you but i found out the hard way that CPUs learn from humans.
My friend and i were on WiFi and were like hey lets do teams. So it was me and him versus two CPUs and i was just screwing around. Pretty soon i was outta stocks so i share stocked and died again so i share stocked a final time. then we depleted one of the CPUs stocks completely and thought we were done with it until it share stocked with the other CPU. The CPU only share stocked in the one game that I did.

 

[<π]

NO DACUS!

needles, yes. needles are so strong in this match up. they force D3 in the air, and you beat him in the air (Ironically as long as you aren't behind him)

 

[Zankoku]

East: Tell him it's easier to just utilt if you keep going for that kind of crossup >_>

 

[sniperworm]

East - You could toadstool him for the lulz.

 

[saviorslegacy]

@saviorslegacy- in your video it says to use c stick. How am i supposed to analog stick, hold b, and c stick to chain lock?
Thanks for the help

Oh oops.. didn't see this. (lol @ East)

left thumb= Analog
right thumb= b-button
right pointer finger= cross it over you right thumb and hit the c-stick in any direction that you can. I hit it down.
*note* It doesn't matter which way you hit the c-stick. All it does is make the chain twitch. Also take note that it only moves when it goes from its neutral position (the center of the area that the c-stick is in) to the side. So you have to be violent and hammer it like a mad man.

Another thing to note is that the twitches only work if the chain is in the air. If it is touching the ground then the chain has no damaging movement. (This is why you also use the analog.)
I found that you can do a true chain lock without using the analog at the ledge (where you don't have worry about it touching the ground).
So just use the analog to keep the chain in the air and lock with the c-stick.


I also believe you said something about the claw. I can tell you right now that the claw isn't worth the effort (IMO). (Others disagree and they are alloud to do/believe as they wish.) SO claw if you wish... I think it is easier to NOT do it.


Just wondering... who all use's the claw?

 

[<π]

East - You could toadstool him for the lulz.

high above d3 is a horrible idea!

 

[rathy Aro]

@East: Like Ankoku said utilt is gonna start happening if you keep doing that. or maybe even bair. Thing is, if you do one thing over and over it'll get predictable and get punished.

I don't actually play any DDDs as sheik or the other way around, but I think autocanceling sheiks bair and spacing it well leaves you completely safe. And I think autocanceled nair is safe if you follow up with jab (or possibly grab?).

And of course, needles are sex. Its like they approach for you.

 

[saviorslegacy]

D3= a simple match up IMO (for a simple character)

IMO D3 is all about the CG, camp game, WOP and his anti approach technique's.
All you need to do is counter each one and you are set.

CG= DON'T GET F*CKING GRABBED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Space well with your Bair and just hit his shield with the tip of your foot. That provides enough sheild stun that he can't do a grab.
Throw in a chain and Needles here and there.

camp game= Just f-tilt those waddle men and get close.

WOP= I hate wall of pain.....
All I have to say is try to recover from below.

anti approch techs= ask the Needles and chain what they think about it

It makes for a very boring match though. Then again... when was D3 ever fun to play?



I know I kinda got carried away.... but really and truelly D3 is simple.

 

[clowsui]

sheik can't get cg'd

LOL

 

[rathy Aro]

remove cg and replace it with tech chase. Same thing pretty much. The matchup may play straight forward, but I don't think its easy. Not gonna say anything more since the matchup thread covers it well.

 

[sniperworm]

high above d3 is a horrible idea!

Indeed. Hence "for the lulz," since you accomplish little else by footstooling him.

 

[East]

East: Tell him it's easier to just utilt if you keep going for that kind of crossup >_>

@East: Like Ankoku said utilt is gonna start happening if you keep doing that. or maybe even bair. Thing is, if you do one thing over and over it'll get predictable and get punished.

I'm fully aware that he can counter it with an up tilt. I'm asking for effective mix-ups so that doesn't happen.

CG= DON'T GET F*CKING GRABBED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I refuse to accept this as a methodology of fighting DDD. I believe it is possible to play mindful of his grabs but to not get grabbed at least once by a character whose grab range is nearly the length of Marth's sword is ludicrous. When most of his game revolves around that one move I don't see it not hitting you at least once.

Other than the tech chase, I'm pretty sure that he ftilt after a d-throw as well, which get's pretty annoying too.

Perhaps I'm just being predictable, but he just shields all my needles and walks toward me to grab.

 

[Steel]

needles are definitely power shieldable

 

[Crossjeremiah]

lol i played badnewsbears d3 and i think i have my match up down. its basic . you dont need too many needles except for some approaches so you can get that ftilt to fair in. and vanish is very useful in this matchup. i mean hes takes up half the screen xD

 

[saviorslegacy]

I refuse to accept this as a methodology of fighting DDD. I believe it is possible to play mindful of his grabs but to not get grabbed at least once by a character whose grab range is nearly the length of Marth's sword is ludicrous. When most of his game revolves around that one move I don't see it not hitting you at least once.

Other than the tech chase, I'm pretty sure that he ftilt after a d-throw as well, which get's pretty annoying too.

Perhaps I'm just being predictable, but he just shields all my needles and walks toward me to grab.

"Sir, prepare to go to ludicrous speed!"
(sorry... just had to do it)


Well I know that you cannot avoid getting grabbed all together. I do know that it is usally smart to try and avoid getting grabbed as often as you can. In other words I was just saying to be very cautious around the chubby bird.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

So I want to find out more about this whole Chain malarky so hopefully this is the right place to ask about such a thing

I've heard about how it wrecks certain characters (my main concern is Sonic since I use him as a secondary) and...well I'm pretty skeptical to be honest which is unfair of me to say so since I have very little Shiek experience. I can't understand why characters can't just jump over it. I understand that using the Chain has something to do with the electric part but...

If anyone could enlighten me on why it's so good (videos would be even better) I'd appreciate it. Thanks

 

[<π]

I'm with you and I'm a sheik main.

I've been waiting for videos showing uses aside from basic chain locks, no luck there since ryoko posted his basic chain lock vids.

 

[Lotopius]

I personally prefer the air LOVE the chain. It's a bit like the Bowser Bomb, except easier to land and less punishable.

The chain lock when turning your back to the opponent (i.e. the proper chainlock) is very hard to set up, and should only be used as a punisher for a predicted approaches such as sonic's spindash, or any SH approaches (except marth's), since you have to turn your back to your opponent, deploy the chain and send it behind you.
The spacing of the incoming attack itself doesn't really matter (as long as the attack isn't disjointed) because of the chain's range and disjointedness, but be carefull to actually hit with the chain (even if you don't manage to lock them) otherwise you will get punished. The damage dealt depends on how fast you finger becomes numb, but I'd say it's largely enough compared to the difficulty for actually setting it up (It is a lock after all).
Don't get me wrong though, if you do this more than once per match, you opponent isn't very good. It's more a WTF DID YOU DO?? move than anything else, forcing the opponent to be extra carefull and shiver each time you turn your back to him.
I land it most of the time after a whiffed bair spacing: RAR retreating SHbair, the opponent goes "haha missed, my turn now", rushes in and... gets locked.

The frontal chain lock (which should be called a chain shield stab more than anything else) is very usefull as an approach on a shielding opponent. if done properly, it is unpunishable: run up, SH chain (not jacketed), land with the opponent about halfway the length of the chain, and proceed to move the analog stick VERY FAST (otherwise the opponent will punish you).
If the opponent keeps shielding, it will eventually shieldstab and lock them, dishing damage before sweetspoting them away. You may now withdraw the chain safely.
If the opponent spotdoges, same thing happens.
If the opponent rolls behind you, just sweetspot them with the chain and you can now chainlock them merrily.
If the opponent rolls away, withdraw the chain asap and you should be fine.
if the opponent attacks, he should eat a sweetspot in the face, withdraw the chain.
Be carefull with the upbOoS though.


Now comes something I don't understand: the lack of use of the chain jacket, especially for KILLING. We are entering the realm of theorybrawl, since I haven't gotten this down well yet and I am not a top sheik player, but it looks beautiful on paper.
When you think about it, sheik has the possibility of having a moveable, disjointed Upsmash hitbox as long as its leg! When the opponent is in killing percentages, do a (fully if possible) charged Upsmash. Run up to the opponent and jacket the chain, hitting with the tip if possible (to minimise punishment) and... BOOM.
I usually do this after a missed DACUS: I mix up shielding and empty SH, and as soon as possible, I either grab for a release-> DACUS or I deploy the chain for a kill.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I'm with you and I'm a sheik main.

I've been waiting for videos showing uses aside from basic chain locks, no luck there since ryoko posted his basic chain lock vids.

WTH don't we brainstorm all of the options and I'll put the video together?



New Sheik CG:

Disclaimers: as always you can escape it
*pats the people who know this on the back*

Frankly I have trouble at lower percents cuz f-tilt combo's don't really work. So I screwed around and found this.
Jab cancle grab/grab> pummel (if you don't pummel then you need to since it does 3%)> F-Throw> Fair> u-tilt> grab> repeat one more time (after that they fly to far to continue the combo)
If you do get it a second time you can do this insted.
F-Throw> Fair> f-tilt> ???

The only part that can be escaped (if done correctly) is the F-Throw> Fair part
Since their only options is attack or air dodge (no ammount of DI can screw this up... unless they go straight up but I haven't tested that yet). If they use an attack just run under them and perform u-tilt when they get out of the attack frames. If they air dodge then do the same as if they attacked.

Basically it's a question of... "should I Fair or should I u-tilt?" You can also try and force an air dodge.



What do you think?

 

[Lotopius]

Are you doing a SHfair or fullhop?
Have you tried following up with a rising needlestorm to fair or to footstool?

 

[saviorslegacy]

Are you doing a SHfair or fullhop?
Have you tried following up with a rising needlestorm to fair or to footstool?

*SH

Needle's yes, footstool no (I don't think a footstool would work)

I listed my follow ups and grounded Needle's.



*note* Just putting this out there.
When someone is on their back you can use SHNeedle's (it cancle's) and follow up with DSmash. You see you will get Needle pull if they are on their back. lol

 

[Lotopius]

What I meant was:

The transition underlined are escapable

grab -> pummel -> F-Throw -> Fair -> u-tilt -> grab -> pummel -> F-Throw -> Fair -> ???

Instead of going directly for a Fair, which is escapable, why don't you try to do a rising needlestorm, giving something like this:

grab -> pummel -> F-Throw -> aerial needlestorm -> Fair -> u-tilt -> grab -> pummel -> F-Throw -> aerial needlestorm -> footstool -> dair -> ?????

The part in italics is just an attempt to find an inescapable followup. The idea is to charge 2 needles on the way up, throw them and footstool the opponent who is either in needle hitstun or just finished his airdodge.

The thing is, I don't have my wii with me and I don't know if you can follow up a fair to aerial needles.

 

[Zankoku]

New Sheik CG:

Disclaimers: as always you can escape it

Stop using terms wrong. If it can be escaped by anything other than you dropping the combo or chaingrab, it is not a combo/chaingrab. It's as bad as calling Snake's dthrow wakeup-punish-regrab a chaingrab.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Stop using terms wrong. If it can be escaped by anything other than you dropping the combo or chaingrab, it is not a combo/chaingrab. It's as bad as calling Snake's dthrow wakeup-punish-regrab a chaingrab.

Then what do you suggest we call CG's that have a 50% chance of working? String Grabs? lol

*tech chase

 

[Zankoku]

If it's a 50-50 then you shouldn't be giving it any dumb term at all. You don't need a stupid name for every specific stupid thing.

It all falls under "correctly reading the opponent." And I guess if you wanna be all Sirlin-esque you can call it "yomi."

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Can anyone point me into the direction of videos showing the way chain destroys characters or at least a video showing the basic principles of it? I'm having a hard time finding any...the only ones I've found is the jacket glitch (which is pretty lol, how come you don't use that more often? Too impractical? Can make the game crash so it's illegal?)

 

[rathy Aro]

I don't have any vids, but its simple. The chain has easily controlled hitboxes. If you have nothing that lets you hit sheik while you are out of range of the chain (like projectiles) then she can camp you if she has the advantage, but sonic has his spring so its not even an issue. This would be an issue for people like MK, G&W, Wario, and Ganon off the top of my head.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

But surely you could just jump above Shiek and Dair her or roll towards her during the time her chain drops and she needs to flick it back up and shield grab her?

Oh yea, when would you pull out the chain? When you have room or to interrupt a flow of attacks?

 

[Tristan_win]

But surely you could just jump above Shiek and Dair her or roll towards her during the time her chain drops and she needs to flick it back up and shield grab her?

Oh yea, when would you pull out the chain? When you have room or to interrupt a flow of attacks?

Fully extended upwards the chain can touch the top platform on BF. There's isn't many moves in the game with that much range. Usually when it comes to stopping a dair I think it's more about what you are going to do after you hit him then before since if you don't follow the hit up quickly enough then he's just going to dair or nair you. Although once you get into the higher % that's not a problem anymore...

and the chain is very hard to add to your game but one of the few set ups I do is throw into chain. It's a very good mix up since you first jump towards them which freaks them out into a air dodge or an attack and then if they are DI toward you they fall into chain **** if not then just retract unless it's someone like meta knight who doesn't have a very solid answer to the chain camp.

Personally I see the chain as being the perfect example of the RPS system as for most character have nothing but one to two moves can beat it. Like DK for example, DK is a character I wouldn't use the chain on often since he has great abilities to get around it such as the super armor dk punch and his down B. This does not mean though I would never use the chain on Dk instead I would only use it if he doesn't have a punch charge up and cannot use his down B. He might not be able to use it because he's in the air falling towards me or just because I'm apply pressure to his shield currently with the chain so he can't try without getting hit. Even on marth sheik can use the chain on him even though with his counter and dolphin slash can easily knock you out of it. Marth counter and up B hit's for the most part right infront of him because of this if you manage to get marth above you or to your upper right or left as in no lower then sheik head height then you can juggle marth with the chain and there's nothing he can do about it besides di away or jump if he can.

About people jumping over you... since no one fights sheik and no one fights a sheik who knows how to use the chain people will usually challenge it's brokenness or will primitively attempt to knock you out of your chain camp. Always keep in mind that sheik chain has crazy range and when you see someone attempting to jump over you bring your chain low to the ground then up. The extra room for momentum will force the chain to shoot in a perfect line directly upwards. With being able to hit that high most if not all character will be force to use multiple jumps to get around sheik chain and the invisible striking distance the chain has and all you need is one to two hits to make the chain camp useful.

That's how I see the chain camp, if I can get 2+ hits I just caused most likely 10 or more damage and most range attacks (falcon Lazar, peach turnip, luigi fire balls, and so on) will do less damage and will not combo into anything since they had to change their spacing just to safely hit you out of the camp. You may think two hits is a lot it's not as usually if you hit someone once that 2nd hit is guaranteed or they immediately run away in such a fashion that you are able to safely retract the chain.

Oh... and if you see someone roll behind you let go of the directional stick for a brief moment as it returns to the neutral spot and them immediately start flicking it behind sheik each time letting it go back to neutral again (or at least close by how fast I do it I most likely don't wait that long) the backwards chain lock is better for punishing people who roll behind you but I've found this method is much easier set up to do and will always force them to escape from the front of sheik.

haha, sorry if it's not pretty I just started typing and went onto a rant of sorts.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Can anyone point me into the direction of videos showing the way chain destroys characters or at least a video showing the basic principles of it? I'm having a hard time finding any...the only ones I've found is the jacket glitch (which is pretty lol, how come you don't use that more often? Too impractical? Can make the game crash so it's illegal?)

****it we need to make that Chain video. -_-




GAWD! I am really pissed right now cuz I just found a combo that would make Sheik even more awsome... Only problem is is that it needs freakin WAVE DASH!
jab cancel> u-tilt> WD> jab cancel> u-tilt> WD> jab cancel> f-tilt lock> ender/combo (like Fair) (Do you realize how much damage we are talking about here?)

That would be soooo sexy. The only problem is is spacing. There might be a pivot that allows us to move foward and that doesn't perform Dash Attack.
(So is there one?)

 

[Zankoku]

Jab cancel doesn't lead to true combos.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Jab cancel doesn't lead to true combos.

how so?

10sheiks

 

[Zankoku]

Hit stun.