Got a question! Sheik Q&A & FAQ

[saviorslegacy]

Someone is a hater

You are correct.

 

[-Cross-]

I also do the D-Throw> Uair againt multi hit Dairs like Fox's drill, Mario's tornado or Peach's Dair. Reason being, you just eat the first hit and they end up taking more damage than you.

I love f-tilt> Uair. I have never tried mixing Vanish into it though.

Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcrtM_e89Nc
I am trying to do it on command. The timing is hard because you have to hit the b button twice. You either don't go off or you needle glide.
The easiest way to do it is to waist a fully charged handful of needles.

Ah nice vid. How do you make the chain move so quickly in all those directions? Are you using both c-stick and analog stick? Any specific directions?

Also give vanish after uair a shot, of course only if you predict they will do their momentum cancel aerial though. Only characters with short momentum cancel moves will be able to avoid it if you predict it right, and you play against a Peach right? Her air dodge is so bad that the vanish is probably slow enough to hit her, and all her momentum cancel aerials last a long time.

Is it better to utilt after d-throw or uair? I like uair because it feels faster, but utilt seems to have better links and sometimes I hit with the weak uair hitbox which leaves me open for a counter attack.... Any opinions on this one?

 

[<π]

use fthrow!!!!!!!!! dthrow is sheiks WORST throw.
lowest damage highest knock back... just not a good throw to do stuff from. you don't get frame advantage either.

needle toss cancel to ledge grab > falco. lol.

 

[Judo777]

use fthrow!!!!!!!!! dthrow is sheiks WORST throw.
lowest damage highest knock back... just not a good throw to do stuff from. you don't get frame advantage either.

needle toss cancel to ledge grab > falco. lol.

Nope uthrow is her worst throw lol but ur right fthrow and bthrow are where its at depending on what side u want them on.

Uthrow is bad tho i think u have alot of frame disadvantage on it.

 

[-Cross-]

Really? Don't you mean u-throw? Because d-throw does 1% more and probably has more FA than uthrow, which has noticeably more post lag than d-throw. I already know that f-throw and b-throw are better throws, and they have obvious frame traps/legit combos(?) but only if the opponent DI's incorrectly. Dunno, just trying to keep my options open, although I will take your word that d-throw is not nearly as good as the two side throws. I still would like to know if there were any possible frame traps, since I have had some success with d-throw @ 0-around 20%.

Edit: lol ninja'd

 

[<π]

I don't think its as bad as it seems its probably comparable to d throw.

I know the damage is the same.

but uthrow is much harder to DI. has less knock back. (orat least it doesn't scale with percent as much as Dthrow.) and still sets up traps that are at least as good as dthrow.

uthrow -> uair doesn't feel far fetched at all when I do it a mid/high percents. but I pretty much always do fthrow though so I may be thinking of something else I can't test cuz my wii is broken :/

 

[<π]

Really? Don't you mean u-throw? Because d-throw does 1% more and probably has more FA than uthrow, which has noticeably more post lag than d-throw. I already know that f-throw and b-throw are better throws, and they have obvious frame traps/legit combos(?) but only if the opponent DI's incorrectly. Dunno, just trying to keep my options open, although I will take your word that d-throw is not nearly as good as the two side throws. I still would like to know if there were any possible frame traps, since I have had some success with d-throw @ 0-around 20%.

Edit: lol ninja'd

well in my experience Bthrow can be DIed so that you can't really follow up, it will still leave them in a less than preferable position, but especially when fresh they'll be too far to feel threatened to the point where they need to predict with an air dodge or an attack.

Fthrow is a bit hard to DI and generally puts them in a place always accessible by a short hop, full hop, or dashing version of those to regardless of percent, before they have their jump option available. which forces them to guess air dodge or attack (normally attack isn't an option because of hit stun)

out of curiosity which characters are you playing against? I feel like the faster character could just nair out?

Despite that even at low percents fthrow (again in my experience) yields the best results you get a free fair, if they air dodge that you can jab or grab their landing. at low percents you also get the dash in sheild option which beats both aerials and dodges (but not jumps)

 

[Judo777]

well in my experience Bthrow can be DIed so that you can't really follow up, it will still leave them in a less than preferable position, but especially when fresh they'll be too far to feel threatened to the point where they need to predict with an air dodge or an attack.

Fthrow is a bit hard to DI and generally puts them in a place always accessible by a short hop, full hop, or dashing version of those to regardless of percent, before they have their jump option available. which forces them to guess air dodge or attack (normally attack isn't an option because of hit stun)

out of curiosity which characters are you playing against? I feel like the faster character could just nair out?

Despite that even at low percents fthrow (again in my experience) yields the best results you get a free fair, if they air dodge that you can jab or grab their landing. at low percents you also get the dash in sheild option which beats both aerials and dodges (but not jumps)

yea bthrow is more DI-able the thing i do like however is if its DI ed incorrectly which happens especially if u mix up ur throws then it can give free bairs that can kill. But fthrow is probably the best overall. And ur right about uair being less Di-able but we have a ton more lag than dthrow after. Its really debilitating i feel.

@ Cross ofc i ninjaed you..... I'm a sheikah

 

[-Cross-]

Eh the characters I play against is not anything but impressive, (there is also the problem that my friends just are not as good as me), but regardless, I have the most exp vs Wario. I get limited exp against: Marth, Luigi, Bowser, MK, and G&W. What's probably happening is that my friends just air dodge out of habit which makes it seem like Sheik has FA. I'll just ask them to do their attacking option next time and see how it goes.

I'll experiment with uair @ mid%'s especially if the scaling on knockback is low, but if f-throw gives follow up mixup options at every % than I guess there really is no reason to do any other throw aside from bthrow. Btw what options does Sheik have when they DI away at mid-ish %'s (when they are diagonally up and to the right of Sheik)? Seems like the opponent has enough time to air dodge away, but will Sheik's dash>aerial option beat that?

 

[<π]

I feel like dash full hop fair or dash full hop uair are solid options. they prob can air dodge in time. but I lik eto bait the air dodge some times with a short hop and punish their air dodge or just full hop next to them and wait for the air dodge to finish. also with fair you should have time to fair again depending on character they won't be able to move far enough away to avoid a second fair or a nair even if the did air dodge the first attack.

(snake and D3 are examples of this)

 

[-Mars-]

At low percents bthrow>dacus can hit people if they correctly DI the throw. Of course they can throw out an attack, but if they airdodge they get *****. Nice little mixup I use every few games or so.

Also fthrow to a running pivot grab works a lot for me. Sheiks so fast that your opponent usually doesn't have much time to react so they airdodge out of instinct.

Also you can fthrow, empty SH, and catch them with an utilt.

If you fthrow to fair, a lot of people will immediately jump. You can use your second to punish with an aerial.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Ah nice vid. How do you make the chain move so quickly in all those directions? Are you using both c-stick and analog stick? Any specific directions?

Also give vanish after uair a shot, of course only if you predict they will do their momentum cancel aerial though. Only characters with short momentum cancel moves will be able to avoid it if you predict it right, and you play against a Peach right? Her air dodge is so bad that the vanish is probably slow enough to hit her, and all her momentum cancel aerials last a long time.

Is it better to utilt after d-throw or uair? I like uair because it feels faster, but utilt seems to have better links and sometimes I hit with the weak uair hitbox which leaves me open for a counter attack.... Any opinions on this one?

I spazzed the crap out of the c-stick and the analog.

Uair is an amazing move. If autocanceled you can link it into u-tilt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlcYJw6PqBc&feature=related
I do it at the very beginning. Also, if you are high up and you hit with weak Uair just perform another Uair. Performing your second jump is optional. Other time you can do this:
jump> Uair (weak hit)> Uair> fast fall
This opens up an opportunity to juggle.

 

[-Cross-]

At low percents bthrow>dacus can hit people if they correctly DI the throw. Of course they can throw out an attack, but if they airdodge they get *****. Nice little mixup I use every few games or so.

I've actually been wondering about DACUS after f-throw in the same way. Does it also work where if they DI fthrow so they are low to the ground, they can be hit by DACUS?

I spazzed the crap out of the c-stick and the analog.

Uair is an amazing move. If autocanceled you can link it into u-tilt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlcYJw6PqBc&feature=related
I do it at the very beginning. Also, if you are high up and you hit with weak Uair just perform another Uair. Performing your second jump is optional. Other time you can do this:
jump> Uair (weak hit)> Uair> fast fall
This opens up an opportunity to juggle.

Eh, dunno weak uair at low%'s has really low hitstun. That match against Peach it seemed that you didn't get punished because she was at the tip of your hitbox and 2 other things, Peach lacks a good combo breaker aerial from below and your opponent didn't react in time. From my past experiences, whenever I landed an autocancel weak uair, I would always get hit out of it, but I guess I was just hitting them at too low %. You hit him at like ~25%, I usually hit them below 10% whenever I get punished for it.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Well then that is your problem.
You can't DA at low prevents and expect not to get punished.

 

[thexsunrosered]

uthrow -> charged tipper works a lot for me when the opponent is over 100-120 ish, not more than once a set though. If you constantly followup up and condition them to airdodge then when they are thrown up by the uthrow the only thing that will save them from a tipper is if they don't AD and jump away or are Wario and move like they're on crack

 

[da K.I.D.]

and even then you dont even have to throw wario to kill him to begin with.

Shiek is actually my pocket counterpick for wario.

Its stupidly hard for sonic, and its just annoying for falco, but for shiek is practically a free win lol.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I LOVE DTHROW!

But I think I'm the only one. Dthrow nets me the majority of my kills.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I use forward backward an ddown throws equally, since mixing up your throws leads your opponent to have bad DI since they dont know which way theyre going.

 

[-Mars-]

Sheik-Wario is about even, hardly a free win.

Course if it's a scrubby Wario you can chain camp him.

 

[-Cross-]

I LOVE DTHROW!

But I think I'm the only one. Dthrow nets me the majority of my kills.

Care to elaborate on this? Are the followups after dthrow character specific/do they work against certain characters better than others? Because so far, what I'm hearing about dthrow is not a lot.

 

[da K.I.D.]

well the wario I play with doesnt know to follow shiek offstage lol. its still easier with her than any of my other characters.

 

[-Cross-]

Well that doesn't really help when you play against a better Wario. Just pick up Marth, it's ******** easy for Marth. The only reason you would lose is if Wario makes some key reads but aside from that, once you learn the situations (baits, traps, etc) Marth will have almost complete control throughout the whole match.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Care to elaborate on this? Are the followups after dthrow character specific/do they work against certain characters better than others? Because so far, what I'm hearing about dthrow is not a lot.

Alright, what I do is I dthrow and watch what they do. They are either gonna DI away from you or try to attack/airdodge at you. It's what I use to tell me how my opponent does things and what their style is like. How you punish is all dependent on what they do but imo, you really are never in a disadvantage from a dthrow. That's just how I feel though.

 

[-Cross-]

So if they DI away what follow up do you do if they decide to attack you? I'm guessing you use pivot grab/grab if they DI away and air dodge. If they DI in the same spot and they air dodge, do you just utilt? And if they attack you, do you utilt or uair?


Btw does anybody know the max frames of invincibility Sheik can get after tether grabbing the edge?

 

[Judo777]

So if they DI away what follow up do you do if they decide to attack you? I'm guessing you use pivot grab/grab if they DI away and air dodge. If they DI in the same spot and they air dodge, do you just utilt? And if they attack you, do you utilt or uair?


Btw does anybody know the max frames of invincibility Sheik can get after tether grabbing the edge?

Idk the number but its the same for everyone and its less than ordinary ledge grab invincibility. We get the same useable invincibility cause we don't have that delay where we have to wait to let go of the ledge like we normally do when we grab the ledge.

 

[Juushichi]

Can anyone who has a good amount of ZSS experience give me some tips on the MU?

 

[Judo777]

Can anyone who has a good amount of ZSS experience give me some tips on the MU?

I can once i get a little more time. I'll probably hit you up on the chat.

 

[-Mars-]

We can discuss ZSS after the Wario discussion has concluded if you want Juushichi.

 

[Juushichi]

^ That's cool too, but I was just looking for some quick things to look at. I'm not opposed to a ZS discussion after wario. I'm not entirely sure of my options there, compared to playing it with Mario.

 

[da K.I.D.]

discussion on how to beat wario with shiek?

sign me up plox.

seriously, wheres the thread?

 

[<π]

I don't get to play many ZSS's

When ever I play nickriddle he gets some gay, lucky gimp, declares sheik's recovery is bad, and then takes the game. I don't really understand ZSS as a character, i don't know what I'm supposed to do ever. how do I DI this, where am I most advantaged? Chan I punish this Out of shield?.

There aren't many high level ZSS in the world from what I've been able to gather. either way... I can't help much on this. ROB and ZSS are just too uncommon for me to talk about.

ftilt range should be fine? he close range game is really fast but high risk so try and bait stuff I guess.

Oh she has a 0 to death on us I think.

 

[-Mars-]

K.i.D the thread is right at the top of the topics lol

 

[-Cross-]

I believe there is a chart regarding the dsmash chain that ZSS has on us. To prevent it from being a true 0-death, one needs to DI up on each hit.
Here's the thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4401279
Also not exactly the same but ZSS apparently has a CG on Sheik too but it can be escaped.
Check this thread out: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=228857

If ZSS shields that is an advantageous position for Sheik. Sheik has a couple options that work on ZSS's shield, jab with various cancels, ftilt? (dunno if its good according to Frame data), and chain. Also if you happen to get an autocancel bair, nair or fair, you will have frame advantage. Mix in throws and you have a whole slew of ways to **** her if she shields. ZSS's fastest options is jab OoS which is 8 frames (almost as good as a typical grab), but remember that you can shield her 3rd jab hit pretty much every time, just make sure you DI down. ZSS is weird, but one should utilize the fact that ZSS has no reliable way to stop you from shielding. Her grab is too slow, and she only has frame traps which once you know will make the MU easier.

 

[-Mars-]

Lol this is good stuff do you guys mind if we start the discussion right now. Not sure if people would contribute if we had too many open matchup discussions.

 

[-Cross-]

Yeah, you should at least finish one of the discussions before moving on, it's not like we have that many people contributing either, so taking our time isn't going to hurt us. Besides I dunno if the MK MU (the most important MU) has been thoroughly discussed in comparison to the D3 MU which seems to be almost finished. Also we can always copy paste the stuff we just posted about ZSS, you could put it in the OP when you make the thread later. So yeah, I vote make a ZSS MU thread at least after the D3 MU is done.

 

[-Cross-]

I was practicing Sheik today, and I was practicing b-reversal needle out of the initial dash, but then I did a grounded melee b-reversal out of the initial dash. So basically instead of turning around and recovering the distance, I kept my initial momentum and direction and just turned around without going the opposite direction. Does anybody know the timing for this or have a method for performing this? I have a guess as to how to do it, but I haven't been able to do it consistently enough.

 

[<π]

sounds like you buffered the turn at the end of the dash animation and then buffered a needle charge.

dash (left)-> buffer (right)-> buffer B

but you should slide if you do that.

 

[-Cross-]

Alright, I'll start practicing that. You mean at the end of her foxtrot right when you say end of dash animation? Because Sheik also has a very short run-stop animation, almost as fast as Sonic's imo, which could be causing this. The biggest problem really is buffering the input in the opposite direction because most of the time I just end up getting the laggy running turnaround animation >_<

 

[Judo777]

Alright, I'll start practicing that. You mean at the end of her foxtrot right when you say end of dash animation? Because Sheik also has a very short run-stop animation, almost as fast as Sonic's imo, which could be causing this. The biggest problem really is buffering the input in the opposite direction because most of the time I just end up getting the laggy running turnaround animation >_<

Sonics run stop animation is really long iirc

 

[-Cross-]

Eh, iirc it had good IASA and it was encouraged at one point to do run stop>f-smash, but idk... I can't find the thread either. lol whatever, not like it really matters.

Edit: I found the thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165699&highlight=Dash+Stopping
Yeah Sonic's is fast but not better than just using shield. And Sheik's is not faster than just using shield... oh well. Look @ post #12 if you are interested