Got a question! Sheik Q&A & FAQ

[Tristan_win]

I've loved Halberd since the game came out.....the low ceiling makes DACUS and ftilt to usmash kill at insane percents. I don't think it gives Sheik any specific advantages but I would personally counterpick it because I just seem to do well on that stage.

I don't like Brinstar but you can decay your ftilt as much as you want so I guess that's nice.

I've also always loved PS1 for Sheik. She has a kinda lol wall infinite on the stage and chain can hit through some of the transformation points. The ledges also dont affect her as much as other characters and the stage is fairly large for needle camping.

I've never been a big fan of Brinstar but now that you mention it you can decay the ftilt as much as you want on that stage and if you plus the fact that the ceiling is so low wouldn't that make it by nature a good sheik stage?

I'm going to have to start looking into that stage more.

 

[East]

I've never been a big fan of Brinstar but now that you mention it you can decay the ftilt as much as you want on that stage and if you plus the fact that the ceiling is so low wouldn't that make it by nature a good sheik stage?

I'm going to have to start looking into that stage more.

Whenever my friends and I play friendlies, we set the level to random, and 2/3 times It's Brinstar. Despite it being a little easier to kill, I still loathe the level.

 

[Tristan_win]

Whenever my friends and I play friendlies, we set the level to random, and 2/3 times It's Brinstar. Despite it being a little easier to kill, I still loathe the level.

Brinstar: 81/74/68

FD: 82

Ummmm..If what Thinkaman says it true then it really isn't all that much better.

edit: just to make things easier

Battlefield: 82/75/68
FD: 82
Delfino: 82
Norfair: 82/74/67
Yoshi's Island: 82/75
Lylat Cruise: 82/74
Spear Pillar: 82
Castle Siege: 82-88-81
Distant Planet: 82
Smashville: 82/74
Frigate: 81-77
Brinstar: 81/74/68
Wario Ware: 79
Halberd: 77/75/68-73/65
Aero Dive: 77
FlatZone2: 77
Rainbow Ride: 75
Green Greens: 75
Yoshi's Island (Melee): 74
Corneria: 74/70/57
Mushroomy: 67

edit2: with that all said it still seem pretty meh, I mean you can control decay easily on that stage but usually on a stage like brim people are jumping around a lot and not fighting on the ground so the ftilt into usmash might not be that useful

Once again though testing is needed. I mean if we just say something is bad purely because of theroycraft then I bet almost all of are top tier match ups would be 60/40 then.

Oh wait!

 

[East]

Why is it that you can cancel the lag from your jab with a crouch, but you can't do it with something like... your forward smash?

By which I mean cancel the forward smash with a crouch.

 

[Zankoku]

IASA frames. It's the same method in which Wolf can cancel part of his usmash cooldown with an anything else.

 

[East]

Thanks.

Random useless facts I picked up after another failed round of frame data testing:

The second hit of the dash attack has similar knockback properties to that of the later part of the forward air. It sends enemies straight/slightly downward.

The reappearance from the Vanish has 4 frames of wind. Upon further inspection, It can be seen as a slowly expanding translucent white ring around sheik when she reappears.

 

[Tristan_win]

Thanks.

Random useless facts I picked up after another failed round of frame data testing:

The second hit of the dash attack has similar knockback properties to that of the later part of the forward air. It sends enemies straight/slightly downward.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199727&highlight=ninja+head

I kinda of already found that.

 

[-Mars-]

I'm having a ton of trouble using DACUS out of a grab release for that guaranteed kill on MK. I could only do it once out of hundreds of tries. Do I need to buffer it before MK is even released or what? I'm having a ton of trouble doing it and it's pissing me off.

 

[Tristan_win]

I'm having a ton of trouble using DACUS out of a grab release for that guaranteed kill on MK. I could only do it once out of hundreds of tries. Do I need to buffer it before MK is even released or what? I'm having a ton of trouble doing it and it's pissing me off.

Yeah the timing is difficult but the good thing is it's very easy to practice.

Just go to training mode and practice it for like 8 minutes everyday and soon enough you will become badass enough with it so you can do it with your eyes close.

 

[GooseMainsDiddy]

Does Sheik's up-B have a "push" effect at the endpoint where she re-appears? I have a strange replay of, what looks like, it pushing my DK downwards and I was curious

 

[-Mars-]

Yep vanish has a wind effect on reappearance similar to Ganons utilt and Toon Links dair.

 

[saviorslegacy]

BTW... Needle's force a get up on MK and Sonic.
IDC enough to test it on everyone.

How to perform:
jab lock with Needle's as soon as they land. For some reason the force's a get up.

 

[Zankoku]

It's Needle Storm into single Needle, usually. Works everywhere except on slanted ground (like Yoshi's Island), on every character fat enough to get hit by needles while fallen (characters like Marth are too skinny to get hit).

 

[saviorslegacy]

It's Needle Storm into single Needle, usually. Works everywhere except on slanted ground (like Yoshi's Island), on every character fat enough to get hit by needles while fallen (characters like Marth are too skinny to get hit).

Ah hah.. thanks for helping me with the timing.

#1 a single needle works just as well
#2 doing it my way hits Marth (the timing)

Go into training, set Marth at 63%, Fair him while he is standing and throw a Needle.
What will happen is you will knock him onto the ground (of course this can be teched), throw a needle and the he will be forced to stand up.

For MK.
Nair> needle jab lock at 40(ish)%
Bair> needle jab lock at 50(ish)%
Fair> needle jab lock at 60(ish)%
It appears that the only way to escape is a tech.
That said... this is something you can perform on MK:
Fair> full needle's> dash grab (or pivot grab)> pummel twice> grab release DACUS

 

[Zankoku]

Considering how far a fair and needle storm would carry Meta Knight across the stage, you're probably not gonna have enough stage left to land a grab release DACUS afterward.

Still prematurely excited about situational combo setups that you can't be bothered to test, I see.

You do have one part right, though. You can land a dash attack (kinda stupid, DURR HURR I'M GONNA HIT YOU FOR 7%), grab, or running usmash after the needle storm forced reset. I believe the running usmash can double-hit on ROB and Samus if you time it right.

 

[GooseMainsDiddy]

Yep vanish has a wind effect on reappearance similar to Ganons utilt and Toon Links dair.

So it's normal that it pushed me straight down?

 

[Zankoku]

If you were under Sheik, then yes, it is. It causes wind in all directions outward from her reappear.

 

[<π]

if you get caught in the wind while in hit stun you drop straight down.

 

[Tristan_win]

if you get caught in the wind while in hit stun you drop straight down.

Speaking of which I've been meaning to test that.

I bet sheik wind would be able to gimp or severely make good attempts on a large selection of characters recoveries most likely before it's actually killing percents....Also I forget who made the video but can't sheik true combo out of the vanish hit if she manages to catches her opponents with the wind as well?

I could of sworn I've seen a video with some sheik in training mode where he manage to get the consecutive hit counter up by doing this.

edit: If I recall correctly training mode did not count the wind effect in consecutive hits

 

[thexsunrosered]

Speaking of which I've been meaning to test that.

I bet sheik wind would be able to gimp or severely make good attempts on a large selection of characters recoveries most likely before it's actually killing percents....Also I forget who made the video but can't sheik true combo out of the vanish hit if she manages to catches her opponents with the wind as well?

I could of sworn I've seen a video with some sheik in training mode where he manage to get the consecutive hit counter up by doing this.

edit: If I recall correctly training mode did not count the wind effect in consecutive hits

Here's the video you're talking about
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXV4uyKMptg

Also, <3 is correct when saying that being caught in the wind during hitstun soft-spikes people. This is what all of those OMG SHEIK VANISHED KILLED ME THEN SAVED ME vids are about, because if they happen to DI the way you do, when you vanish, regardless of percent, then they'll be caught in the reappear wind and sent straight down, rendering them immobile until their bouncing animation is over. If you guys want, I could make a vid showing off some of the things you can do with it.

 

[Tristan_win]

Here's the video you're talking about
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXV4uyKMptg

Also, <3 is correct when saying that being caught in the wind during hitstun soft-spikes people. This is what all of those OMG SHEIK VANISHED KILLED ME THEN SAVED ME vids are about, because if they happen to DI the way you do, when you vanish, regardless of percent, then they'll be caught in the reappear wind and sent straight down, rendering them immobile until their bouncing animation is over. If you guys want, I could make a vid showing off some of the things you can do with it.

Please do because my hands are full with other things to research and organize. Please keep in mind though that the chain can also force get up...to my knowledge any part of the chain.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Considering how far a fair and needle storm would carry Meta Knight across the stage, you're probably not gonna have enough stage left to land a grab release DACUS afterward.

Still prematurely excited about situational combo setups that you can't be bothered to test, I see.

You do have one part right, though. You can land a dash attack (kinda stupid, DURR HURR I'M GONNA HIT YOU FOR 7%), grab, or running usmash after the needle storm forced reset. I believe the running usmash can double-hit on ROB and Samus if you time it right.

You can pivot grab.
You can also f-tilt.

I don't test because someone cannot test combo's by themselves's.

Here's the video you're talking about
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXV4uyKMptg

Also, <3 is correct when saying that being caught in the wind during hitstun soft-spikes people. This is what all of those OMG SHEIK VANISHED KILLED ME THEN SAVED ME vids are about, because if they happen to DI the way you do, when you vanish, regardless of percent, then they'll be caught in the reappear wind and sent straight down, rendering them immobile until their bouncing animation is over. If you guys want, I could make a vid showing off some of the things you can do with it.

I messed with this combo as well and this is what I found.

There are three ways to catch someone.
#1 Catch above them (foe at lower percents)
#2 Catch to the side of them (all percents)
#3 Catch below them (high percents)

Depending on how you catch them you can perform different combo's.
Here are the combo's that I found:

Catch below them:
Vanish catch> f-tilt
Vanish catch> FSmash
Vanish catch> any airials and pretty much any other move you want to hit them with except Chain and Vanish
Vanish catch> needle's

Catch to the side of them (the none canceled one):
Vanish catch> dash attack/DACUS (they can DI this one more and keep you from using anything else)
Vanish catch> Needle's

Catch above them:
Vanish catch> dash attack/DACUS
Vanish catch> Needle's


Now that is if you don't catch them and auto cancel your fall. The auto canceled combo are quite impressive.
Vanish catch> needle's (forces get up)> pretty much whatever you want except for another Vanish (you can also get a chain... but you can't get a reverse lock it)
Vanish catch> chain (BTW... it jab locks) (if you stop doing the chain you also force a get up)> another chain or DACUS


ps Vanish catch stops working at 200%.

 

[thexsunrosered]

lol alright well I guess I don't have to do anything then

 

[SuSa]

Question:

How many people use B-reversed Canceled Needles to edgeguard. (EG: Fair, BRCN (what I just mentioned), bair)

How many people use BRCN on stage as well. (EG: Bair, BRCN, fair, ftilt, blah blah blah)


Question #2:
How many of you will save your second jump. Chain the ledge, but cancel it quickly, then use your second jump to recover?

 

[Zankoku]

Answer 1:
Just call it a reverse needle cancel. I haven't used it much since I've rarely been able to cover enough distance for two aerials in a row, but if I want to go straight from an edgehog into a fair then it's pretty much my best option.

I use shorthop reverse needles when running away to turn myself back toward the opponent quickly, then either cancel or throw them, depending on the situation. It's also an alternative to RAR as a mixup between bair/fair approaches.

Answer 2:
I've never done this recovery on purpose because if I'm using chain it's usually to avoid them sitting on the stage with some disjointed attack (like a Pikachu down+B).

 

[SuSa]

1) Reverse needle cancel, lawl. Keep it simple SuSa.

I use it often for edgeguarding, sometimes on stage... mostly just to keep my back to my opponent. (Back air is safer then fair IMO. :x)

2) The point is for those who drop down to hit you off the chain. They see the chain, and don't expect the cancel into second jump. It's simply another option that is there that I rarely see anyone use.

I ask questions to bring up things. <_< >_>

 

[Zankoku]

bair is indeed safer than fair, but it also has far less gimping potential because it can be DI'd upward so well. At high percents it's not a bad idea though.

 

[SuSa]

Higher %'s it gets the KO, lower %'s make sure to sourspot it.

Also does anyone know if sourspot nair is actually weaker on the back then the front?

 

[saviorslegacy]

lol alright well I guess I don't have to do anything then

No go ahead, seeing is believing.

 

[Zankoku]

That's an interesting question. My initial thoughts are no, since it appears the hitbox of the strong nair has the same damage throughout, merely different trajectories based on where you hit.

I'll mess around with it tomorrow and give you a factual answer.

 

[riocosta123]

What is the best way to get back onto the stage versus Snake/Marth? I feel like they shut down nearly all of Sheik's options if they stand on the stage at a certain range.

 

[Zankoku]

riocosta: They pretty much do. Mixup ledgehop airdodge, ledgejump, and ledgestalling and hope for the best.

SuSa: There are three possible ways to land a strong nair.

NUMBER 1 - Sourspot

The hitbox pretty much behind Sheik, where her knee bends. Deals 10% and sends backward.

NUMBER 2 - Sweetspot front

ANY AREA in front of Sheik. Deals 13% and sends forward.

NUMBER 3 - Sweetspot back

The area that's very close to exactly the center of Sheik but just a little bit behind her. Deals 13% and sends backward.

All three have the same knockback values, but the sourspot is less powerful simply because it deals 3% less.

 

[Judo777]

hey saviors i actually gotta give this one to you. That combo doesn't actually seem too situational to use. Plus even if the percent isn't quite right or the other player techs it, its still pretty safe cause i think the needles would still land and if not its not gonna be punished i don't think. Also you don't have to use a pivot grab release DACUS even on metaknight u could just punish with something else. It just seems like a chain of moves that u could make up as you go. The only real danger is hitting someone is a fair which i think can be shield punished. Idk though thats just my opinion.

 

[SuSa]

Thank's Ankoku. But I meant weak nair. XD

 

[Zankoku]

I imagine the weak nair would be adjusted in the same way, just with lesser knockback.

 

[SuSa]

Could've sworn I've gotten it to hit down before.... probably bad DI on my opponents part.

 

[Zankoku]

Yeah, I've "spiked" with nair before, too. It involves both SDIing and normal DIing downward, causing a low trajectory into an immediate groundbounce. Or just a really really bad angle to be hit offstage with.

 

[Leafplayer452]

Hey does anyone think Fthrow to bair have Chaingrab potential (I know it depends on how your opponent DI the fthrow) but Im just wondering cuz the bair's range can most likely capture the opponent if they DI away I believe. But I dont know about if they DI towards you which makes then go above you.

Also this kinda only seems reasonable on Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Wolf

 

[clowsui]

how do you chaingrab by doing a move in the middle? o_O

 

[Leafplayer452]

Its easy for me to turn around and bair really quickly....since Im kinda use to my fingers moving all around my controller lol