God gave me a job

[_Keno_]

I'll start by saying that the Quran was way ahead of it's time, both scientifically and philosophically. .

While it won't be difficult to convince me that the Koran is more likely to be truth than the Bible, I would like quotes of the scientific information you say is found in the Koran.

And while equality is a great message, it is found in many religions, so I honestly wouldnt count it as proof towards anything.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Out of curiosity, can you provide links to the parts of the Quran that describe the embryo's development?

 

[Remzi]

Here is a 2 part video that talks about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6uMvE5reNc

The speaker was actually a non Muslim scientist who specialized in embryology and converted to Islam because of the striking similarities between the newly found details about the stages of development and the way that the Quran depicts them.

 

[SuSa]

Scientifically, the Quran accurately describes the process of an embryo's development, the role of a mountain to stabilize the crust of the earth and weaken quakes, touches on the roles of certain parts of the brain, the barrier between two meeting sees where water does not mix, the fact that the sun will eventually burn out, as well as many many other scientific references that have only recently been discovered in modern science.

Not meaning to be a skeptic, but I would actually like the references for the embryo's development, the sun burning out, and the roles on certain parts of the brains. I'm kind of taking your word and while I don't see you having reason to lie this actually peaks my interest.

But learning Arabic to read it in it's most original form isn't going to happen sadly. Japanese is enough and I'm not going to learn an entire language to learn a little bit more about a religion I'm unlikely to follow in the end.

But I CAN eliminate the fact that 2 particles didn't just appear out of nowhere, and that they had to start somewhere. Because it defies the science that this theory strictly abides by.

So where did your God appear from?

Sorry, but you CAN'T eliminate the fact that 2 particles (it doesn't even have to be 2..) didn't just appear out of nowhere. Because even a God had to have come from somewhere. To say that "he has always been in existence" well... why can't I give a few particles that same property? Always having existed?

*EDIT: I just want to say that it is awesome we have actually had an intellectual talk about religion here. Never seen one not go to hell after a few pages before.

I'd like to say that with the amount of trolling I tried at the start of this thread - I'm amazed it's managed to maintain a civil discussion this long.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I'd rather just get the source then someone talking about it, honestly.

 

[RATED]

If humans eventually get the ability to create a virtual dimension or universe inside of a computer (The sims in 1000 years), and the people in that virtual world have perfect (artificial) intelligence, like ours, and we made this world to operate exactly like ours...bigbang is the beginning etc...would that make us god? IF yes, then are we perfect?

tell me ******** if you want people, but I actually have though about it a lot and also though that maybe we are just something like that( not a program of course) but you get it something inside something that we are getting watched as we develop.

My beliefs in God came from that idea. I can't stop thinking bcuz there must be something else.

 

[saviorslegacy]

The Big bang is absurd IMO. You can't make something from nothing.
Then again, were did God come from?
Then you have that whole life thing.... yeah. I don't think life can just happen from a pool of goo. I can't remember the exact number but the odds of life forming was like 50,000,000,000,000,000,000 to 1 or something like that. Basically it is mathematically impossible.

All and all, we just don't know. Everyone and I do mean everyone would like to know how we all got here. Some find the answer in believing in a religion while others choose to go with what they believe is the practical or modern way of believing, evolution.
Either way, there are always things unanswered. Scientists guess while religious people assume.
Either way, you can't argue that yours is the correct answer because you don't have rock solid "facts" that disprove the other or prove yours right. It is all up to the believer (believer meaning everyone).


In other words...... STOP ARGUING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Palpi]

The big bang isn't absurd if you were knowledgable in science, we can measure it's energy. The argument, atleast for me isn't if the big bang happened or not, but why these laws of physics or how something did come from nothing etc. I sincerely think the big bang happened.

 

[Landry]

As someone who's studying philosophy I can give you my main arguments against the existence of God -

An all good, all powerful God would create the best possible universe that he can create. This is that universe. Our universe contains evil. An omnipotent God would not have by choice created evil. Therefore if God (or a god) exists, we must conclude that he is either not all powerful or not all good.

In addition, I think a modern belief in God must be independent of the Bible. The Bible has too many discrepancies, especially in the Old Testament. In fact, the God of the Old Testament is often cruel and spiteful towards man which contradicts much of what the Church would have you believe of God.

Oh yeah, and the Big Bang happened. Science and evolution is far more plausible. While I can't completely rule out the existence of God I think it far more likely that he does not exist. If God was appear before me in a burning bush and proclaim his existence to me then I would be forced to revise my views, but at this time it seems to me science is working its way towards being able to explain everything that humans used to rely on the mysticism of religion to answer.

 

[Jim Morrison]

The Big Bang didn't happen from nothing.

 

[Melomaniacal]

An all good, all powerful God would create the best possible universe that he can create. This is that universe. Our universe contains evil. An omnipotent God would not have by choice created evil. Therefore if God (or a god) exists, we must conclude that he is either not all powerful or not all good.

(Keep in mind that I am an atheist)
I think there's a flaw in this kind of thinking. You are only arguing under the assumption that if a god exists, it must be the god of the bible. You don't know that a god would be all good, omnipotent, or even all powerful. You don't know that a god would create the best possible universe.
There is good reason to dismiss a specific god (in this case the Christian god), but not the entire idea of a creation - be it by one creator, multiple creators, etc.

Then you have that whole life thing.... yeah. I don't think life can just happen from a pool of goo. I can't remember the exact number but the odds of life forming was like 50,000,000,000,000,000,000 to 1 or something like that. Basically it is mathematically impossible.

Mathematically improbable, not impossible. You said it yourself, there is a numerical probability of it happening, and over a long enough period of time it has to happen.

 

[PB&J]

all i know is the truth aren't facts and words..it is a person

 

[Landry]

(Keep in mind that I am an atheist)
I think there's a flaw in this kind of thinking. You are only arguing under the assumption that if a god exists, it must be the god of the bible. You don't know that a god would be all good, omnipotent, or even all powerful. You don't know that a god would create the best possible universe.
There is good reason to dismiss a specific god (in this case the Christian god), but not the entire idea of a creation - be it by one creator, multiple creators, etc.

I agree with you on this point entirely. This very topic is often a topic for debate amongst philosophers and I've always been one to point out that we cannot completely dismiss the idea that a God or gods who are imperfect beings actually created the universe. Still, even that is far less probable in my mind then the idea that life was created in the universe by a greater being. No religious dogma to date has taken into account the complexity of the universe, so we can likely rule out the existence of a creator from one of the worlds many religions. However, we do not have enough evidence on either side to rule out the possibility that a creator in fact set the universe in motion with the Big Bang. I find this doubtful in spite of the fact that science has yet to prove what caused the Big Bang. Years ago science had failed to prove that the earth was round, or that the earth orbited the sun, but that doesn't mean that they didn't. I suspect that eventually science will explain the Big Bang, but until more concrete evidence is given to us it would be foolish to dismiss the possible explanations of intelligent design.

 

[marthsword]

Link to original post: [drupal=3734]God gave me a job[/drupal]



I am a dedicated Christian, and people tend to wonder why I believe so much. People really dont have much reason to believe. However, I believe 100% in God, simply because I can talk to him. And he talks back. Physically. He has helped me through life by giving advice, to telling me what happens next.
Now he is asking ME for a favor. He wants me to tell all of you about this, to spread his word. He revealed to me what the world has come to. Deception. Thievery. Dishonesty. Murder. And its no longer a shock to people, it happens thousands of times a day, if not more. And it sickens me to no end. Society not only has these things, but says they are OK (minus the murder), and its sad.
So I ask all of you to put your foot down and make change, real change. Spread Gods word, because I have/AM proof he exists. Save the world from what it has become, or else soon it will be gone. Thank you.

Say what you want on the web. But publicly, the general consensus is that it is onoly schizophrenics who believe in this direct mental connection with God.

 

[saviorslegacy]

The big bang isn't absurd if you were knowledgable in science, we can measure it's energy. The argument, atleast for me isn't if the big bang happened or not, but why these laws of physics or how something did come from nothing etc. I sincerely think the big bang happened.

I happen to rather enjoy Science. This is why I believe that there is evolution... to an extent. I believe in more like radical adaption, but not that man came from apes or we came from fish and so on and so fourth.
ie All lizard species came from one lizard.
Just the sheer fact that we have so many dog species proves that evolution is possible. Whether through selective breeding or through adaption over time, a species can change.


Anyways, the only so called proof of the big bang is Stephen Hawking's mathematical equation. For those of you who don't know about this he took one professors equation for how a black hole works and reversed it. Instead of sucking in it was blowing out.
Here's the problem though, you still can't get nothing from something. That stuff had to get there somehow. Also, Stephen Hawking's equation describes a white hole if I am not mistaken.
All and all though, I <3 Stephen Hawking. If he does figure out an equation for gravity, how it works and why it is everywhere he will be like one of my favorite people.

Also, laws shouldn't be invented by an explosion. I have blown many things up and none of them created a new law. Scientific Laws are constant..... that's why they are a law and not a theory........

 

[Melomaniacal]

I happen to rather enjoy Science. This is why I believe that there is evolution... to an extent. I believe in more like radical adaption, but not that man came from apes or we came from fish and so on and so fourth.
ie All lizard species came from one lizard.
Just the sheer fact that we have so many dog species proves that evolution is possible. Whether through selective breeding or through adaption over time, a species can change.


Anyways, the only so called proof of the big bang is Stephen Hawking's mathematical equation. For those of you who don't know about this he took one professors equation for how a black hole works and reversed it. Instead of sucking in it was blowing out.
Here's the problem though, you still can't get nothing from something. That stuff had to get there somehow. Also, Stephen Hawking's equation describes a white hole if I am not mistaken.
All and all though, I <3 Stephen Hawking. If he does figure out an equation for gravity, how it works and why it is everywhere he will be like one of my favorite people.

Also, laws shouldn't be invented by an explosion. I have blown many things up and none of them created a new law. Scientific Laws are constant..... that's why they are a law and not a theory........

1. Man did not come from apes
2. The planets are moving outwards. There had to be something to get this movement going
3. Equation for gravity... like... http://www.universetoday.com/56157/gravity-equation/ ? Or something else?
4. Why would you assume that we have established and know all the laws of the universe?

 

[Nø Ca$h]

the big bang theory is a theory. therefor it can be proved to exist or not to exist.

the belief that god created us is a belief. it cant be proved right or wrong, people just believe it happened.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

@SaviorsLegacy: there's no reason to disbelieve that man came from apes. How can you trust a scientific "theory" and then reject one of its major tenants?

 

[kr3wman]

the fact that the sun will eventually burn out

Sorry to be nitpicking here, but isn't the thought of nothing being eternal pretty old? (older than Islam) Assuming the Sun will burn out eventually is something I even thought as a kid when I started asking myself about whether things all come to an end or not. (Or does it specify in the book that the Sun will run out of hydrogen (or whatever gas it runs on, if it isn't hydrogen, I don't remember)

:/

 

[AMKalmar]

The big bang isn't absurd if you were knowledgable in science, we can measure it's energy. The argument, atleast for me isn't if the big bang happened or not, but why these laws of physics or how something did come from nothing etc. I sincerely think the big bang happened.

Law of angular momentum! Either it all spins on the same axis, or it didn't break off of the same particle.

@SaviorsLegacy: there's no reason to disbelieve that man came from apes. How can you trust a scientific "theory" and then reject one of its major tenants?

Show me fossils of the stages in-between monkey and man. They constructed a few skeletons here and there that appear to be somewhat transitional, but if the entire species evolved, then there would be millions of skeletons with subtle changes between each that show a gradual transition from monkey to man.

 

[Zook]

The Big bang is absurd IMO. You can't make something from nothing.

Wrong. Watch/listen to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo#t=2m13s

It's really long, but worth it.

 

[Melomaniacal]

@SaviorsLegacy: there's no reason to disbelieve that man came from apes. How can you trust a scientific "theory" and then reject one of its major tenants?

Well... evolution doesn't say that we evolved from apes, or else there wouldn't be apes today. Apes and humans share a common ancestor, but they are different and separate. It's complicated.


Also, I'd like to bring this up because I fear someone saying something stupid soon (not to come off as an ***):
A "theory" in the science world is not the same thing as the common use of the word "theory." When we casually use the term "theory," we really mean "hypothesis." A theory in the science world is much stronger than a hypothesis. A theory is what one or more hypotheses become once they have been verified and accepted to be true. A theory is an explanation of a set of related observations or events based upon proven hypotheses and verified multiple times by detached groups of researchers.

Key words in that definition: verified, accepted, true, proven, verified.

 

[saviorslegacy]

1. Man did not come from apes
2. The planets are moving outwards. There had to be something to get this movement going
3. Equation for gravity... like... http://www.universetoday.com/56157/gravity-equation/ ? Or something else?
4. Why would you assume that we have established and know all the laws of the universe?

2. What if that is just a result of some unknown force or maybe gravity repelling itself like a magnet. If I take a bunch of magnets and places them around each other and perform a magical spell that makes them always face at the opposite direction then they would be pushing each other away. Maybe there is something like this taking place minus the magic.

3. I honestly don't know. I just remember reading that Hawking was looking for the equation for gravity or something like that.

4. Believe me, I don't. My book is based on unknown scientific laws.

@SaviorsLegacy: there's no reason to disbelieve that man came from apes. How can you trust a scientific "theory" and then reject one of its major tenants?

*what Melo said

I'm Christian, but I am different than most others in the fact that I believe in evolution... to an extent. I believe that God created everything and evolution. Over time things have evolved so that the creatures may thrive in their environment.

Wrong. Watch/listen to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo#t=2m13s

It's really long, but worth it.

Whenever I use WMM it makes flash stop working... so I can't watch that vid right now. I'll restart my CPU and watch it later.

Also, I'd like to bring this up because I fear someone saying something stupid soon (not to come off as an ***):
A "theory" in the science world is not the same thing as the common use of the word "theory." When we casually use the term "theory," we really mean "hypothesis." A theory in the science world is much stronger than a hypothesis. A theory is what one or more hypotheses become once they have been verified and accepted to be true. A theory is an explanation of a set of related observations or events based upon proven hypotheses and verified multiple times by detached groups of researchers.

Key words in that definition: verified, accepted, true, proven, verified.

*8th grade science lesson
Funny thing is, most people don't realize this.



@whoever said that God would create a perfect universe
His creation was perfect except for one thing, he gave free will. Satan rebelled against God in an attempt to take control and was banished from heaven. Gods most prized creation, man, who was made in the image of himself became the target of Satan. God had the tree of life in the Garden of Eden (which I believe to be Libya) so that his creation would choose to obey him out of love... same as why you would obey a highly respected parent. In the end Satan was able to trick Eve into eating the fruit by saying that it would open her eyes. Maybe at this point we gained the ability to be intelligent beings.... I don't know TBH. What ended up happening was the ability to give birth came into play and death became real.

The universe isn't perfect because God gave everything free will.... and that led to choosing to do the wrong things.


All and all though, the Bible is a good book even for non-Christians. It has good lessons on life in there. I'm Christian and I like Buddhism just because of the life lessons (and it helps meh relax).

 

[SuSa]

If God is all knowing and (again) perfect. He'd have known giving free will would lead to an imperfect creation.

Thus, being perfect, he'd not have made that mistake.

EDIT:

The tree was the Tree of Knowledge (not life). It held the knowledge of good and evil. The knowledge of the god's themselves. Satan (disguised as a Snake) tricked Eve into eating fruit from this tree. She gained the knowledge of good and evil, and so God banished her and Adam from the garden. Punishing them for not having obeyed him.

The Tree of Life is guarded by an angel, and God did this lest Adam and Eve eat from this tree as well - and thus live forever.

Here's the wiki

Genesis 2

Genesis 2 opens with God fashioning a man from the dust and blowing life into his nostrils. God plants a garden (the Garden of Eden) and sets the man there, "to work it and watch over it," permitting him to eat from all the trees in the garden except the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, "for on the day you eat of it you shall surely die." God had already created the animals. When Adam tries to find a help-mate, none of the animals are satisfactory, and so God causes the man to sleep, and creates a woman from his rib. The man names her "Woman" (Heb. ishshah), "for this one was taken from a man" (Heb. ish). "On account of this a man leaves his father and his mother and clings to his woman." Genesis 2 ends with the note that the man and woman were naked, and were not ashamed.
[edit] Genesis 3

Genesis 3 introduces the Serpent, "slier than every beast of the field." The serpent tempts the woman to eat from the tree of knowledge, telling her that it will make her more like God and it will not lead to death. She succumbs, and gives the fruit to the man, who eats also, "and the eyes of the two of them were opened." Aware now of their nakedness, they make coverings of fig leaves, and hide from the sight of God. God asks them about what they have done. Adam blames Eve, and Eve blames the serpent. God curses the Serpent and then curses Adam and Eve with hard labor and with pain in childbirth, and banishes them from his garden, setting a cherub at the gate to bar their way to the Tree of Life, "lest he put out his hand ... and eat, and live forever."

EDIT:

Story of Adam and Eve is pretty much one of the few I know extremely well, due to how flawed I believe it is.

There is no shame in nudity - and I laugh that they were ashamed of their nakedness. Many cultures had always only have worn clothing for protection. Not to hide their nudity, but protection from the weather (Heat, cold, rain, etc.)

If God is all powerful - why would he create women from Adam's rib? If this be so, he had also altered humans. Should men not have one less rib than women? Why did he take Adam's rib rather than creating Eve how he did Adam?

 

[Zook]

If God is all knowing and (again) perfect. He'd have known giving free will would lead to an imperfect creation.

Thus, being perfect, he'd not have made that mistake.

...

If God is all powerful - why would he create women from Adam's rib? If this be so, he had also altered humans. Should men not have one less rib than women? Why did he take Adam's rib rather than creating Eve how he did Adam?

Maybe God is lazy/likes to mix things up/didn't intend to make everything perfect.

 

[SuSa]

Laziness from a perfect being?

I'd sure hope not.


Seeking fulfillment by mixing things up?

I sure hope not.

Intended to make a mistake?

I'd see that as imperfect.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Certain parts of the bible aren't meant to be taken literally, you know.

I think the first big contradiction of the bible is that god is perfect, but also needs worship. If god needs worship, he isn't perfect.

 

[Zook]

Laziness from a perfect being?

I'd sure hope not.


Seeking fulfillment by mixing things up?

I sure hope not.

Intended to make a mistake?

I'd see that as imperfect.

Perhaps our definition of perfect isn't correct, and chaos is a part of perfection.

 

[SuSa]

That would be possible if "the word of God" didn't give us a pretty nifty use of the word perfect.

 

[Steel]

As someone who's studying philosophy I can give you my main arguments against the existence of God -

An all good, all powerful God would create the best possible universe that he can create. This is that universe. Our universe contains evil. An omnipotent God would not have by choice created evil. Therefore if God (or a god) exists, we must conclude that he is either not all powerful or not all good.

In addition, I think a modern belief in God must be independent of the Bible. The Bible has too many discrepancies, especially in the Old Testament. In fact, the God of the Old Testament is often cruel and spiteful towards man which contradicts much of what the Church would have you believe of God.

Oh yeah, and the Big Bang happened. Science and evolution is far more plausible. While I can't completely rule out the existence of God I think it far more likely that he does not exist. If God was appear before me in a burning bush and proclaim his existence to me then I would be forced to revise my views, but at this time it seems to me science is working its way towards being able to explain everything that humans used to rely on the mysticism of religion to answer.

God gave people free will out of love, with free will comes the choice to do evil. It is logically impossible for evil to not exist with a world of free will and the choice to do sin. If God were to intervene with a person's choice to sin, he would be violating his own nature and love for us with our gift of free will.

Not all of the Christian religions take the Bible literally. Catholics for example, in loose terms, know that asides from the message the Bible gives it's mostly a bunch of bull****. I always think it looks really bad when people try to use the contradictions of the bible to discredit the existence of a god.

Science is aiding us every day in explaining things but there are going to be things it simply cannot fully explain. No one will ever know for sure. I have no problem in believing in the big bang and evolution but it's hard for me to rationally and logically believe that these things came from nothing at all.

 

[Jim Morrison]

I always think it looks really bad when people try to use the contradictions of the bible to discredit the existence of a god.

This. Times ten.

 

[Fuelbi]

Yeah, being an atheist is just so cool that it is hard to resist, I mean, everyone loves their local atheist. No other reasons.

Oh wait, atheists are the most hated minority in the American by a huge margin. Much moreso than homosexuals, muslims, and even the Tea Party.

If you're implying that I hate them, then no

I've never met such an atheist, and I honestly doubt you have either.

No I really haven't, but everytime the subject on atheism pops up, there's always this one guy who says that they're just trying to be cool or something

 

[GwJ]

This. Times ten.

What other 'proof' do you have then?

 

[Jim Morrison]

Atheists don't need proof if they want to call their belief fake. They should just call it fake and gay but asking someone to disprove something invisible makes you even more ******** than just believing it.

 

[GwJ]

If you have no method of proof, you have no right to impose it as truth IMO.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Hasn't this been brought up enough? It's burden of proof on the Christian side. If you go claiming the existence of something is the truth, you should back up your theory.

 

[AMKalmar]

If God is all powerful - why would he create women from Adam's rib? If this be so, he had also altered humans. Should men not have one less rib than women? Why did he take Adam's rib rather than creating Eve how he did Adam?

www.answersingenesis.org/assets/pdf/media/radio/AdamsRib.pdf
PDF download. Long but interesting. I only read the first page though.
Edit, I read it all. Very interesting article. Answers your question entirely.

Certain parts of the bible aren't meant to be taken literally, you know.

I think the first big contradiction of the bible is that god is perfect, but also needs worship. If god needs worship, he isn't perfect.

God doesn't need worship. He knows who he is. Worship is for us. We worship God to remind us who we are.



I want to respond to a lot of things I'm reading but I can't afford to be putting time into this right now. School.

 

[_Keno_]

If you're implying that I hate them, then no

I'm not, im implying that nobody wants to be an atheist "because its cool."

 

[Melomaniacal]

God doesn't need worship. He knows who he is. Worship is for us. We worship God to remind us who we are.

John 4:23-24 (New International Version):
"Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

Uh-huh...
I can find more if you would like, by the way.

 

[Landry]

Thoughts on Adam and Eve-

Most of what's been said points to how flawed this story is. I would like to also talk about the idea of free will. Humans have always considered themselves superior to other beings because of their intelligence and free will. Most religious people will tell you that God gave us the gift of free will, and yet God strictly forbade Adam and Eve from eating the fruit that gave them this. God didn't want humans to have free will. God should have known Eve would eat the fruit, but somehow he didn't. Furthermore, he goes on to punish to Adam and Eve for eating the fruit. As beings without free will (before consuming the fruit) they couldn't have known what they're doing and cannot be held responsible for their actions. Now, if they didn't have free will that means that their choices must have been chosen, predetermined, by someone. That someone is God. How can he blame them for something he made them do. It's all a big mess of circular logic and poorly thought out anecdotes.