God gave me a job

[Palpi]

The problem is, I am not the one making the scientifically outrageous claims. The burden of proof is not on me.

Charmander said god told him the presbyterian church is correct, then according to his supposed experience with god, your views on having to accept jesus to go to heavan are incorrect. There are so many interpretation of the bible and christianity or religion as a whole, I would not know what to beleive if I ever was a christian. I think god would be reasonable. According to your beleif, the Dalai Lama goes to hell, and he is the one of the most compassionate, loving, caring, non-judgemental, people on this planet with a fraction as many "sins" commited as you. <--- is unreasonable

just for anything...the dalai lama says he will come back in anyform as long as there is suffering on this planet, for no one can escape suffering, no matter how rich, happy, successful (in any sense) you are.

 

[SuSa]

Throwing out another abstract concept.

We're already in hell.

 

[Palpi]

That is essentially how many Buddhists feel, and until you can reach enlightenment, you will never escape it.

 

[Melomaniacal]

@Palpi and Ballistics i mean i believe my theory is firm and inerrant. However, there's always the possibility of me being wrong. That's all i'm saying. Just like you have a firm belief in what you believe in. It could be right or wrong. We don't know ABSOLUTELY 100%. But if you want me to not be confusing and bare with my belief, fine. I'm A Christian, I believe what the Bible says. That's right, i'm using the Bible as a scientific fact. Why is that bad? Disprove it for me. and I believe that if you don't believe Jesus saved us, you will go to Hell for eternity. Seriously though, disprove my belief. How do you know the Bible is wrong?

Once again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof

You can't make a ridiculous (I use this term loosely. Ridiculous in the sense that the magical events described in the bible are ridiculous if you don't accept them as fact) claim and tell us to disprove it, and you can't use the bible as proof for the bible, as it would be impossible to disprove it in the context of itself. You're making the mistake of assuming the bible is correct before proving that it is correct in world context.

Take my "I'm a Jedi, prove me wrong" example. Honestly, if that's all the information I give you, you cannot prove me wrong. It's simple: Jedi, by coincidence, are actually real. I am a Jedi, however I am also lazy and don't feel like using the force or carrying my light-saber. This is why the burden of proof would lie on me to prove that I am a Jedi, not on you to prove that I'm not.

But I have a question for you.
Why are you a Christian? I don't want an answer like "because Jesus is our Lord and Savior," or "the Bible is the word of God." I want to know why you believe these things to be true. Why do you believe that the bible is the word of god? Why do you believe in the events of the bible? What about the bible makes it more easy to accept that magical things once happened that are clearly impossible. What evidence do you rely on?

 

[Palpi]

We don't know the bible is wrong, just many people can't accept it since, it can't prove it is right, by any means. If the christian god exists, he sure finds a good way to conceal himself, that or I am painfully oblivious.

 

[SuSa]

Jedi, by coincidence, are actually real.

Hope you're using this just as an example. I couldn't really tell, even in the context of your post.


However yes. If I say "I can fly across the world like Superman" the first question you would ask is "Can you prove it?"

The burden of proof rests in me, not me saying "Well prove I can't!". I am giving you an impossible task as justification that I can, in fact, fly if I say that.

Also:
I'm pretty sure it's a fallacy to say that because something isn't false that it must be true.

 

[Melomaniacal]

We don't know the bible is wrong, just many people can't accept it since, it can't prove it is right, by any means. If the christian god exists, he sure finds a good way to conceal himself, that or I am painfully oblivious.

Well if there's no good evidence to prove something is right, why wouldn't I believe it's wrong? That same logic applies to everyday life, I don't see why I can't apply it to the bible.

Hope you're using this just as an example. I couldn't really tell, even in the context of your post.


However yes. If I say "I can fly across the world like Superman" the first question you would ask is "prove it".

The burden of proof rests in me, not me saying "Well prove I can't!". I am giving you an impossible task as justification that I can, in fact, fly.

I'm pretty sure it's a fallacy to say that because something isn't false that it must be true.

Yes, it's just an example. A bad example, too, I just think it's funny so I use it.

Just remember that I'm only dealing with what I believe. Yes, the bible could (despite all evidence) turn out to be correct. No, I don't know that's it's wrong. But until I'm provided with sufficient evidence, I'm not going to believe that it is true.

 

[Jim Morrison]

That's right, i'm using the Bible as a scientific fact. Why is that bad? Disprove it for me.


Seriously though, disprove my belief. How do you know the Bible is wrong?

I'm going to use Lord of the Rings as a scientific fact and no one can stop me, woo!

 

[GwJ]

That's right, i'm using the Bible as a scientific fact. Why is that bad? Disprove it for me. and I believe that if you don't believe Jesus saved us, you will go to Hell for eternity. Seriously though, disprove my belief. How do you know the Bible is wrong?

My head! It hurts!

 

[SuSa]

Let's make some comparisons.

Unicorns:

• Have appeared in many books.
• Have pictures depicted of them.
• Have people claiming to see them.

Dragons:

• Have appeared in many books.
• Have pictures depicted of them.
• Have people claiming to have seen them at some point in time*

* I don't know if people continue to claim this... but they used to. I'm sure people still do.

Ghosts/Spirits/Demons:

• Have appeared in many books.
• Have "pictures and videos" that depict the,
• Have people claiming to have seen, spoken, and even interacted with them.

God:

• Has appeared in many books.
• Has pictures depicted of him.
• Have people claiming to have seen/spoken to him.

If the Bible is sufficient evidence to God's existence. I expect every Christian to believe in dragons and unicorns and every other mythological creature. Oddly enough, many don't. Why?

Because it requires faith to believe in God.

Well disprove the IPU (imaginary pink unicorn). I have faith she exists and I place all of my faith in her imaginary pinkness.

/now I'm trying too hard to troll

 

[Melomaniacal]

*Invisible pink unicorn.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Trolls don't admit they're trolling, not even in tags.

 

[SuSa]

*Invisible pink unicorn.

Nope. She's not invisible, I can see her.

I'm a special kind of troll.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Nope. She's not invisible, I can see her.

I'm a special kind of troll.

B-but... http://www.invisiblepinkunicorn.com/ipu/home.html
It's more magical that a unicorn can be both invisible and pink. Of course I just take it on faith that the unicorn is actually pink.

 

[GwJ]

I like SuSa's trolls. :3

 

[Palpi]

I learned a little about the construction of the bible. When the old testament was written, the people in power who beleived in god, said what they wanted, not what they necessarily believed what was true for political authority. Also, the transition from the latin bible to english around 1000 years after it was written was flawed in a sense because the scholars who wrote it were told to leave out things they didn't like, and they were writing about things they didn't experience. This is one reason why, If I was a christian, I wouldn't necessarily say the bible is the literal word of god.

 

[marthsword]

What, they've got you Jehova's on forums now? What's next, spambots?

 

[Palpi]

What is your post in reference to? Just curious, because I am confused haha.

 

[john!]

i can make two claims:

- i had a cheeseburger today
- i am eight feet tall

and you automatically assign a greater truth value to one over the other, without any evidence for either claim. do you know why this is?

 

[Melomaniacal]

i can make two claims:

- i had a cheeseburger today
- i am eight feet tall

and you automatically assign a greater truth value to one over the other, without any evidence for either claim. do you know why this is?

Probability?

 

[SuSa]

B-but... http://www.invisiblepinkunicorn.com/ipu/home.html
It's more magical that a unicorn can be both invisible and pink. Of course I just take it on faith that the unicorn is actually pink.

Aww, I see. We believe in a different unicorn diety.

However I do concede the fact that your diety being both invisible and known to be pink is magical.

Maybe I should convert.

 

[john!]

Probability?

but according to you, the burden of proof is entirely on me, and i haven't given proof for either claim. so why would you believe one moreso than the other?

 

[SuSa]

Based on probability.... he'd be more inclined to believe one over. He can make this judgement call based on statistics.

1) How many people consume a hamburger daily?
2) How many people are over 8' tall?

What is the probability that you are one of the people who eat a hamburger daily?
What is the probability that you are over 8' tall?

Which one is more likely to be true - although not necessarily true.

 

[Melomaniacal]

but according to you, the burden of proof is entirely on me, and i haven't given proof for either claim. so why would you believe one moreso than the other?

Probability.
Millions of people eat cheeseburgers every day. Only 1% of the world population are 8' or over.

Not to mention that you have no reason to lie about eating a cheeseburger. Lying about your height seems more reasonable because many people view height as a good thing/something to brag about. That in addition to the fact that it's only 1% of the world makes me question how true that statement is.

But yes, you could easily be lying about either of those. Anyone can lie about anything. However, you don't really have anything to gain from lying about eating a cheeseburger. Yes, the burden of proof is on you if I wanted to be a **** and say "BULL****, PROVE THOSE THINGS." Not everything needs to go that far, though.

However, if you claimed to eat 1,000 cheeseburgers, or if you claimed to be 20' tall, I would demand proof before believing you. We are talking about magical things here, after-all.

 

[Dru2]

According to your beleif, the Dalai Lama goes to hell, and he is the one of the most compassionate, loving, caring, non-judgemental, people on this planet with a fraction as many "sins" commited as you. <--- is unreasonable

just for anything...the dalai lama says he will come back in anyform as long as there is suffering on this planet, for no one can escape suffering, no matter how rich, happy, successful (in any sense) you are.

No matter how many good deeds someone does in their life, no matter how caring, how much they contributed to humanity, no matter how nice they were, no matter how close they were to perfection, it doesn't matter if you didn't believe Jesus was God's son and saved us from our sins. If you did not ask Jesus to cleanse you of your sins, you will go to hell. No matter what you did on earth.

So just because that dalai lama said that makes it true?

 

[john!]

so thanks to probability, it's possible to have a belief that isn't proven, but is completely logical. like if i said "i'm over 4 feet tall", you'd say that's probably true, based on what you know of other people. that's why the flying spaghetti monster and other similar analogies fail. when's the last time you saw spaghetti fly? have you ever seen a unicorn? how can it be invisible and pink at the same time? we have "evidence" against these claims, so it's logical to believe that the FSM and IPU don't exist. we don't have similar "evidence" against God, so it's not logical to believe that He doesn't exist. the only logical choice is to be completely agnostic about the question.

 

[SuSa]

so thanks to probability, it's possible to have a belief that isn't proven, but is completely logical. like if i said "i'm over 4 feet tall", you'd say that's probably true, based on what you know of other people. that's why the flying spaghetti monster and other similar analogies fail. when's the last time you saw spaghetti fly? have you ever seen a unicorn? how can it be invisible and pink at the same time? we have "evidence" against these claims, so it's logical to believe that the FSM and IPU don't exist. we don't have similar "evidence" against God, so it's not logical to believe that He doesn't exist. the only logical choice is to be completely agnostic about the question.

"When is the last time you saw God create the universe? Have you ever seen God? How can he be merciless and forgiving at the same time? We have "evidence" against these claims, so it's logical to believe that God doesn't exist."

Uhm.... yeaaahhh...

I can claim I've seen a unicorn as much as you've claimed to see God.
It's still up to me to prove to you I've seen a unicorn.
It's still up to you to prove to me that you've seen God.

 

[Melomaniacal]

so thanks to probability, it's possible to have a belief that isn't proven, but is completely logical. like if i said "i'm over 4 feet tall", you'd say that's probably true, based on what you know of other people. that's why the flying spaghetti monster and other similar analogies fail. when's the last time you saw spaghetti fly? have you ever seen a unicorn? how can it be invisible and pink at the same time? we have "evidence" against these claims, so it's logical to believe that the FSM and IPU don't exist. we don't have similar "evidence" against God, so it's not logical to believe that He doesn't exist. the only logical choice is to be completely agnostic about the question.

1. The FSM and IPU are magical, therefore they are possible. They just transcend our universe. It's the same logic behind the Christian god. They all assume that these deities exist in a higher place where this is all possible.
2. What SuSa said.
3. We do have "evidence" against god, and especially the Christian god. People cannot resurrect, beings cannot be omnipotent/omniscient. Beings cannot create universes. I can go on, if you would like. The only time these things are possible is when you simply accept that since the bible says it's possible, it is.

I think the bottom line is that the idea of the Christian god (or any god, really) is only possible within the laws of the universe that the bible established for itself. The bible says that in our universe it is possible for all of the magical events and myths of the bible to be possible. Outside of the bible, these things are not possible. Well, I do not believe the bible is true, and I thus do not believe these events or ideas are possible and could not have happened.

So no, it wouldn't be logical to believe that god doesn't exist if you assume that the laws set forth in the bible are true first. I, however, do not believe these laws to be true, so it's only logical for me to believe that these claims are also not true (seeing how there are no observable miracles).

Similarly, if you accept laws established in the Gospels of the Flying Spaghetti Monsters to be true just as you accept the bible to be true, it wouldn't be logical to say the FSM isn't real.

*I'm using the term "law" loosely.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

No matter how many good deeds someone does in their life, no matter how caring, how much they contributed to humanity, no matter how nice they were, no matter how close they were to perfection, it doesn't matter if you didn't believe Jesus was God's son and saved us from our sins. If you did not ask Jesus to cleanse you of your sins, you will go to hell. No matter what you did on earth.

Why the hell is that? What makes your God any more important than other people's beliefs? You just said that no matter how good someone is and what they believe in, they must believe in God for their souls to be saved. You're basically saying "**** everyone; my opinion's correct." Is that how you think God believes people should think? "You don't believe in me so you're punished forever"? Because I'm a Christian and I certainly don't believe that. The values of Christianity are righteousness and faithfulness, not bigotry and ignorance (note: Christianity, not the Church, let's not get into that).

 

[Melomaniacal]

Why the hell is that? What makes your God any more important than other people's beliefs? You just said that no matter how good someone is and what they believe in, they must believe in God for their souls to be saved. You're basically saying "**** everyone; my opinion's correct." Is that how you think God believes people should think? "You don't believe in me so you're punished forever"? Because I'm a Christian and I certainly don't believe that. The values of Christianity are righteousness and faithfulness, not bigotry and ignorance (note: Christianity, not the Church, let's not get into that).

Matthew 7:21-23
Corinthians 6:14
Chronicles 15:12-13

 

[john!]

not sure why you guys are talking about the Bible. i never said anything about Christianity. talk to a Christian apologist if you want to argue about that lol.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Matthew 7:21-23
Corinthians 6:14
Chronicles 15:12-13

Not even talking about the bible. It pisses me off when religious people feel like they're better than others. I'd like to know what he thinks about it, don't give him something to hide behind.

 

[Melomaniacal]

not sure why you guys are talking about the Bible. i never said anything about Christianity. talk to a Christian apologist if you want to argue about that lol.

I just kind of assumed because this thread is mostly talking about the Christian god.

Also, I would assume that if you're not trying to claim to know the qualities of such a creation, you wouldn't refer to only a monotheistic god.*
Either way, much of what I said still applies.

*That actually brings me to another point. While most Christians won't claim to know that god exists, most Christians do claim to know the qualities of god. This bothers me.

Not even talking about the bible. It pisses me off when religious people feel like they're better than others. I'd like to know what he thinks about it, don't give him something to hide behind.

I'm just saying, there are bible verses that say that the Christian god wants you to only worship... the Christian god. Those who do not seek the god of the bible should be "put to death."
So... if you believe in the bible, and the bible says that non-believers are wrong... shouldn't you in turn believe that non-believers are wrong? Unless you don't think that's actually what these verses say, I guess.

 

[Palpi]

I feel, when talking about the bible, one has to realize how the bible was actually created, or how it was written. The main intention was to get the word of god out to the people. And Moses was said to have written the first 5 books of genesis, but it was impossible, because he would be talking about his own death in that book before it had happened. Obviously, it wasn't god writing in the pages. It was said that the book of genesis was to have 4 writers...i think known as j,p,e, and b. or something like that..4 letters. These people were influenced by the king, or whatever the ruler was called, so the king told the writers to write certain things that may or may not have been in belief of Christianity Also, when the bible was translated, people told the scholars to change things that they didn't like. No one knows what has changed, but since culture has an influence on everything, it could be reason that certain things don't add up, make sense, or why there is such a fear mongering vibe from the bible. It could all have been for political power.

By all means, I am not trying to defend the validity of the bible, I am just saying, there are so many factors to the creation and even the change of the bible, that trying to say that the bible is the word of god doesn't really mesh. Maybe it was meant to be the word of god, but people's greed got in the way. I dunno lol....food for thought...?

 

[Remzi]

I believe in God an am a Muslim.

Sure there is no definitive proof, but I feel like given all the knowledge we have access to, it is more likely that there is a God.

I've always been a huge skeptic of big bang, it doesn't really make sense and is a phenomenon that would require far too many coincidences to actually work. And please don't bring up the "multiverse" theory, because that is thought of as garbage by a vast majority of modern scientists.

Here is a good article that explains some of my faults with a "pure scientific" approach to things:

http://islam.thetruecall.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=362

Another interesting tidbit:

If the Quran is not the direct word of God conveyed to a man, how was an illiterate, unschooled man able to create and memorize (without it actually being written for several years) 114 chapters of what is universally considered to be the greatest mastery of the Arabic language?

 

[Palpi]

Everyone is skeptical of the idea of something coming from nothing, and as much as stephen hawking wants to prove it, everyone will always be skeptical...I am as well. Many people think that god created the big bang, he was the creator of the laws of physics, he made singularity into a universe, then remained relatively out of things, and let the nature he created do its work. I am not saying this belief is unreasonable, but there is no evidence of it. Just because something requires a cause to happen, doesn't mean that cause has to be god...but it can be..i dunno!!! lol

Just trying to get an opinion on this...did that even happen at all bengals?

"The human eye cannot see x-rays, electricity, magnetic fields etc, yet no man of science would dispute with their existence based on fact and proof. Yet with just as much or more proof on God being the creator, the same scientist makes the excuse,” We cannot see him.""

---^ this is dumb, we know xrays, electricity, maginetic fields, gamma rays, ultraviolet rays, because we built instruments that can see what the human eye can't see. I was just skimming that website, and saw that and facepalmed.

 

[GwJ]

I've always been a huge skeptic of big bang, it doesn't really make sense and is a phenomenon that would require far too many coincidences to actually work. And please don't bring up the "multiverse" theory, because that is thought of as garbage by a vast majority of modern scientists.

The Heliocentric theory was thought to be hogwash at first. The big bang is only getting recognized recently. The earth being round was laughed at until someone had to prove it.

 

[Palpi]

(sigh) There is proof that there is room for god as the creator, for no one knows how everything really begun, but that doesn't mean it is the god you believe in, or christians, jews, or anyone believes, it could be a god that no religion has imagined, and that doesn't mean it has to be a god. Just because there is an area of unknown, it doesn't automatically mean god.

 

[Melomaniacal]

@BengalsRZ
Over an long enough period of time, the low probability almost doesn't matter. Also, I think you're looking at the probability the wrong way. This video makes it more clear than I possibly could right now:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98OTsYfTt-c

But I have a question. I understand why you would believe in some kind creation, but why one specific creator? Why is it more likely to you that the creation was done by a single god (the Muslim god in particular) as opposed to many gods? Why is it more likely to you that such a god still exists, still cares about us, desires what he desires, etc?

 

[Remzi]

I worded one thing wrong. I DO believe that Big Bang occurred, but that it was intelligently designed.

@Palpi: I didn't like that part either when I read it, pretty silly comparison. Most of it is very sound, though.

GW: Well uhh, I'll be here when there is more convincing proof than "it happened because it is conceivably possible that it happened."