General Tier Disccussion

[Fiend's_Knee]

Here's my tier list, however this is mainly for PAL but not exclusively, the two characters most affected are yoshi and kirby


Top tier
Fox
Marth
Falco
Sheik

High tier
Peach
Jiggs
Falcon

Middle tier
IC
Samus
Dr Mario
Ganon
Luigi

Lower tier
Mario
Link
DK
Roy
Y.Link
Pikachu
Yoshi

Bottom tier
Zelda
G&W
Ness
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu
Mewtwo

I think most people would agree with the top 7 (maybe not in that particular order)

About the Luigi - Dr Mario debate why has no-one mentioned and/or focussed on who fares better in a Luigi vs Dr Mario match up, I can't comment myself as I lack experience in that match up.

The reason for Yoshi's placement is because he has been buffed in the PAL version being heavier and having some stronger attacks, I was tempted to put him higher but I accept he can be easily gimped. Kirby was also buffed so that prevents him from being rock bottom but still s**t.

If I wasn't so tired I would have went into more detail about my tier list and the reasons behind it, this may be something I will do later. I also accept am not the most valuable source of information or the most experienced smasher so if you see any faults with my list try and be intelligent about it and give reasons for your suggestions, don't just say "Luigi is better than Doc"

 

[Tee ay eye]

Yes, I know :X

Well, didn't Mango **** his Fox too?

 

[otg]

I don't see how any of this argument is anywhere near important in discussing there tier placements.

If you read my statement from before I'm backing up why Doc has a better matchup vs. Jiggly than Luigi. He claimed Doc couldn't capitalize on a missed rest, while Luigi could. That was my proof as to why he was wrong. Questions?

Edit:

Doc vs. Luigi? Imo I say it's 6-4 Doc. Pills destroy Luigi's wavedash and ground games (standing/sh pills, not full jump), and Luigi is slower than Doc in the air so that's not good. Doc can Uair juggle Luigi pretty easily, and Luigi's recovery so predictable it's easily caped/Baired/ftilted.

From Luigi's perspective, his Fair beats out a lot of Doc's moves and he has more range. The worst part is, due to Luigi's low hit stun, Doc really can't follow up after Dthrow due to Luigi being able to bust out an Nair. Doc's grab game is really important and when he can't use it thats bad.

Overall though, a campy Doc has the advantage IMO.

 

[BBQ°]

I think Doc is better than Luigi for one reason:

Pills.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Pills are so ****, 3rd best projectile in the game imo, atleast 4th best in the game (with falco, samus and link's being better). I wonder what nintendo where thinking when they made pills soooo much better then the fireballs

 

[Hyper_Ridley]

Wait... Samus was viable in Melee?

 

[Grunt]

Wait... Samus was viable in Melee?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
yes she was amazing.

 

[otg]

Wait... Samus was viable in Melee?

8th on the tier list as of right now. Jiggly could potentially go above her though

 

[Professor Pro]

Here's my tier list, however this is mainly for PAL but not exclusively, the two characters most affected are yoshi and kirby


Top tier
Fox
Marth
Falco
Sheik

High tier
Peach
Jiggs
Falcon

Middle tier
IC
Samus
Dr Mario
Ganon
Luigi

Lower tier
Mario
Link
DK
Roy
Y.Link
Pikachu
Yoshi

Bottom tier
Zelda
G&W
Ness
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu
Mewtwo

I agree with the top 7 but defintely not in that order in PAL, sheik should be higher then Falco and marth anyday.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Why is sheik so good in PAL, I thought they semi-nerfed her for the PAL version?

 

[Magus420]

How can you agree with Falco being above Sheik in NTSC, yet feel Sheik should easily be above Falco in PAL when Falco only has a partial nerf on the end of the d-air, and Sheik's d-throw was nerfed badly? Is the change to the u-air for more towards comboing than as a vertical finisher an overall buff, and a big enough one at that to put Sheik much higher because of it?

Is it PAL Sheik that is too good, or is it really just Amsah that is too good?

 

[otg]

Magus, you sig never fails to impress me.

 

[Roman.]

honestly, that's the best sig i've seen in a while

but uhh yeah shiek, marth, and fox should always be above falco imo

 

[Dark Sonic]

I'd think Marth would be the best character in the game in pal version. Sure he can't ken combo, but compared to the other character's nerfs he got off easy. And he can even tech the shine since he's slightly lighter!

No shine to grab for you Fox!

 

[hoopspr226]

Why can't he ken combo? What prevents it?

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

How can you agree with Falco being above Sheik in NTSC, yet feel Sheik should easily be above Falco in PAL when Falco only has a partial nerf on the end of the d-air, and Sheik's d-throw was nerfed badly? Is the change to the u-air for more towards comboing than as a vertical finisher an overall buff, and a big enough one at that to put Sheik much higher because of it?

Is it PAL Sheik that is too good, or is it really just Amsah that is too good?

I don't think its the uair... It's possible to use it as a nice little juggler at mid percents on semi floaties, but its really situational and nothing special.
Personally, I can't beleive that sheik isn't in a tier of her own in america considering the fact that her dthrow and uair is so much better O.o
Maybe it's the fact that fox is a bit stronger, marth has a spike, etc... I've played ntsc, and the usmash.... lmao, I thought it was broken here

 

[Shai Hulud]

Why can't he ken combo? What prevents it?

They made his dair a meteor instead of a spike. I don't think there are any spikes in PAL.

Regarding the tier list, I'd think Marth should be either #1 or #2. Fox is probably still slightly better since he is such a flexible character (can play aggressive, laser camp, etc.). Marth also has more evenish matchups than Fox.

Marth's even (or worse) matchups--Fox, Marth, Falco, Sheik, CF, Ganon.
Fox's--Fox, Marth, Falco.
Falco's--Fox, Marth, Falco, Peach, Jiggs, ICs
Sheik's--Fox, Falco, Sheik, ICs

Of course some of Marth's even matchups are against less commonly encountered characters (CF, Ganon). It's more important to do well against space animals, so I think the list should look like

1. Fox
2. Marth
3. Sheik
4. Falco
5. Peach

That would seem to reflect tournament placings as well (except maybe switch Sheik and Falco). I don't know. It's pretty close, but I feel like Marth still has not reached his potential. For instance proper use of pivoting has been implemented by very few Marths. I don't think Fox has reached his potential either. Most Foxes don't laser as well as they should. I think the other characters (except maybe ICs) have reached the peak of their metagame.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

They made his dair a meteor instead of a spike. I don't think there are any spikes in PAL.

Yes there are. Falco's dair, ganondorfs down b (in the air), cf's nipple spike...

 

[Laijin]

Why can't he ken combo? What prevents it?

Spikes don't exist in PAL.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Yes there are. Falco's dair, ganondorfs down b (in the air), cf's nipple spike...

They nerfed Falco's dair but I guess the first part still spikes. Forgot about those other two.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

As far as I know they didn't nerf it apart from making the last part of it not spike, which doesnt affect much except that you can't do go as far offstage and spike (if you plan on surviving) and that you need to think about timing the dair in combos (which really isnt hard, since the spike is out for almost half a second anyway)
I havent played NTSC falco though so im not sure, maybe its stronger in ntsc

 

[Scar]

lol Can we not worry about PAL? The tier list most people on these boards and in tournaments around the country care about is NTSC.

Edit: The top 11 characters in order as stated by Mew2King. I agree down to the top of mid tier, but then I honestly don't know.

Sheik
Fox
Marth

Falco
Jiggs/Falcon tie
Peach

ICs
Doc
DK
Ganon

 

[Dark Sonic]

I still don't agree with Shiek being above Marth. Shiek does have a lot of rediculous matchups, but she still has trouble (more so than Marth anyway) against 2 of the most commonly played characters...Fox and Falco. Where as Marth's only bad matchup (Shiek), is less common (though still very common).

I don't know, maybe it's because I live in Florida, but I honestly do not see as many Shieks as I do space animals.

 

[Shai Hulud]

Sheik being number 1 really doesn't reflect tournament placings.

 

[otg]

lol Can we not worry about PAL? The tier list most people on these boards and in tournaments around the country care about is NTSC.

Edit: The top 11 characters in order as stated by Mew2King. I agree down to the top of mid tier, but then I honestly don't know.

Sheik
Fox
Marth

Falco
Jiggs/Falcon tie
Peach

ICs
Doc
DK
Ganon

Agreed for the most part.. but:

Sheik above Fox? Based on perfect control vids I disagree, have Sheik and Marth tie or one over the other (who cares honestly? they are both sick). From there, Icies aren't in High tier? Really? Where are Samus and regular Mario on that list as well? Low tier? I tend to believe Doc is in the higher part of the mid tier, but above Samus.... I dunno.

 

[Winston]

Well, you should note that the order Scar presented is mew2king's opinion, not one that's based off of tournament results. Mew2king is obviously the most knowledgeable smasher there is, but he may or may not be biased due to personal difficulty dealing with sheik, which he has expressed in previous posts (relative to other characters; obviously he still destroys most players who would go sheik against him).

That being said, there hasn't been a truly elite player that plays sheik often in a long while. That's why it's hard to use tournament results to judge.

The thing that keeps ICs from being up with Peach, Falcon, Jiggs in the "borderline viable for winning a major tournament" category is how bad they are against Peach. ICs also don't have any significantly favorable matchups with the characters above them on that list, though they can definitely hold their own.

DK above Samus is unconventional, but Samus has a good deal of trouble with Fox, Marth, and Falcon.

As far as Doc/Mario goes, that's the one place where I most doubt the accuracy of that list.

High Tier is tricky to determine because after you go past the godly characters, there are a LOT of characters that are very good. There's only so much room in one tier, though...

@ otg, perfect control really isn't very relevant for tier lists because of how completely unrealistic/unattainable frame perfect play is for humans.

 

[Kyu Puff]

The thing that keeps ICs from being up with Peach, Falcon, Jiggs in the "borderline viable for winning a major tournament" category is how bad they are against Peach. ICs also don't have any significantly favorable matchups with the characters above them on that list, though they can definitely hold their own.

What? IC's have an advantage vs. Falco, Sheik, and Falcon, go even with Fox and Jiggs, only doing poorly against Marth and Peach (and Marth isn't close to unwinnable). Chu has more tournament placings than any Jigglypuff main.

 

[The Real Inferno]

Heh Icies can always Wobble!

I think it's important to note, that there are two types of tier lists. Matchup heavy tier lists (where characters who win the tournaments alot and have good matchups get higher) and Tournament Tier Lists (This is where a tier list has a standard top tier of commonly seen tournament characters, usually the ones with good matchups obviously, and then everyone esle is placed depending on their matchups against the most commonly seen characters). I feel Donkey Kong is a prime example of someone who places very differently in these two type of tier lists. His reach, power and combos on fast faller really help him against the Top Tier (not named Peach), but he has bad matchups all over the tier lists from various characters (Not as bad as say, Brawl's Dedede, but you get the point).

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Based on perfect control vids I disagree

The perfect control vids don't really affect or change anything. Nobody can play that perfectly consistently anyway.
BTW, I agree with M2K saying sheik is the best, because she hardly has any weaknesses. A character like fox is better then sheik in many areas, but fox has weaknesses (like half the cast can chainthrow him, he's combo'd very easily and can be edgeguarded/gimped pretty brutally), and other top/high tiers have weaknesses like this as well (I just used fox as an example) while sheik hardly does.

 

[Winston]

What? IC's have an advantage vs. Falco, Sheik, and Falcon, go even with Fox and Jiggs, only doing poorly against Marth and Peach (and Marth isn't close to unwinnable). Chu has more tournament placings than any Jigglypuff main.

Chu is insanely skilled. He's an EXCEPTION. He's also been playing for much, much longer and has been going to many, many more major tournaments than any top jiggs main (cough mango cough?) (cough mango who beat mew2king at the height of his marth prowess whereas chu didn't?)

ICs are pretty much even vs Falco, Sheik, Falcon at top levels of play, once the falco/sheik/falcon learns to play vs ICs. Many top IC mains will tell you this. Sheik, Falco, and Falcon definitely have the tools to not get grabbed while separating the ice climbers.

For example, check out Chu vs Azen in MLG where Azen goes falcon, Chu vs Jiano at pound 3 (Jiano hadn't had much ice climbers experience), Zhu vs Choknater.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

How is Falcon and IC's in IC's advantage? From what I've seen, Falcons insane jump and DD makes him a master at not getting grabbed. And the fact that his arials are so strong and lagfree makes him a master at killing nana without being easily punished by Popo.
I'm not saying that falcon **** ic's period btw: I'm asking a question and I'd love to be proven wrong.

 

[Pink Reaper]

How is Falcon and IC's in IC's advantage? From what I've seen, Falcons insane jump and DD makes him a master at not getting grabbed. And the fact that his arials are so strong and lagfree makes him a master at killing nana without being easily punished by Popo.
I'm not saying that falcon **** ic's period btw: I'm asking a question and I'd love to be proven wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hH5Z-_sKrYM&feature=related

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I think I've seen that set. Doesn't Azen win?

 

[Gory snake]

Azen wins that set as Falcon.

 

[Sariku]

I think that Falco was just really popular at that time. While yes, Falco is amazing, I think Marth has an upper hand in most match ups.

Fox
Marth

Falco
Sheik
Peach

Ice Climbers
Captain Falcon
Samus

 

[1048576]

Shouldn't Luigi be much higher, like above Doc. He moves around the stage faster than any other character. His aerials are less laggy than any other character's. They are also very strong. He's floaty, which gimps his aerials slightly, but it also makes him nigh impossible to combo. Plus, he's been dominating low tier tourneys for too long.

 

[JrdnS]

Shouldn't Luigi be much higher, like above Doc. He moves around the stage faster than any other character. His aerials are less laggy than any other character's. They are also very strong. He's floaty, which gimps his aerials slightly, but it also makes him nigh impossible to combo. Plus, he's been dominating low tier tourneys for too long.

luigi should be higher but not above doc.

 

[otg]

Shouldn't Luigi be much higher, like above Doc. He moves around the stage faster than any other character. His aerials are less laggy than any other character's. They are also very strong. He's floaty, which gimps his aerials slightly, but it also makes him nigh impossible to combo. Plus, he's been dominating low tier tourneys for too long.

Voila Might be some more info in the other pages of the thread. Doc's placement has been a big topic of the thread, but I feel it's justified where it is (besides jiggly moving past him, and evidently based on m2k's ideal tier list Samus moves lower than him). No one has refuted my argument yet.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I probably would, but I got lazy and started watching Speed Runs of random SNES games on youtube instead(and am currently watching the NINE HOUR speed run for DK64)

 

[otg]

(and am currently watching the NINE HOUR speed run for DK64)

Wow, vids???