General Tier Disccussion

[Scar]

Shiz vs M2K is an exception, Shiz pushed the Falco game farther than I've ever seen it go for that set, plus the man is amazing to begin with.

Marth has proven to be one of the most dominating characters in the game, and I think it would be wrong to keep Falco above him. Falco players are winning tournaments, Falco is one of the top characters, but equally skilled Fox, Sheik, and Marth players seem to have more tournament-winning potential.

Edit: This is why Falco should have his own tier. A good enough character to win tournaments across the board (better than CF, Peach, etc), but not on the same level as Fox, Sheik, and Marth.

Top Tier
Falco Tier
High, Mid, Low, Bottom

 

[Gory snake]

Whats with the Doc negativity? He's got great chain grabs, great juggling ability, a decent projectile and more KO potential than the original Mario. Fair enough, he has the worst recovery in the entire game, but Falco has a rather crap recovery and yet people dont seem to mind placing him within the top 4.

Falcon getting placed at the BOTTOM of mid tier? What the ****!? People this is Melee, back when Falcon was great. DTKPeach already stated the reasons that Falcon shouldnt drop.

 

[El HP]

Marth is top tier, luigi and DK in mid tier IMO mario should be low since he has a hard time against most characters above him.

 

[N64]

Are you crazy?
Or in a more polite way: Why do you think that luigi should stay in the low tier?

Might move luigi out of low tier (though not ahead of any chars above him). It's not horribly uncommon to see luigis do alright in tourneys these days, at least more common than the other low tiers (except perhaps DK).

You misunderstood what i was saying, i was simply going over who i would move pika above. And, in my explanation, i could only see moving him above roy, no one else. Definately definately not above luigi.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Oh I see. Sorry about the misunderstanding

 

[Xona]

Each stage has its own Tier-List. Bowser vs. Fox or Falco, on fd, bowser loses, on Big Blue, Bowser can gain a lot with his arials. (Unfortunately Big Blue was banned) Ganondorf can also profit on Big Blue effectively, now he gains speed from the track, he can now dodge stuff and land stuff.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Big Blue is a terrible Bowser stage. His enormous pre-jump lag means instant death if he lands on the track

 

[OTRU...]

Marth should be 2nd due to recent statistics, m2k has brought marth to a different level. Falco could be displaced to third. And jigglypuff should def move up due to the same reason, she always places top 5 in big tourneys (hungrybox, mango).

 

[otg]

Whats with the Doc negativity? He's got great chain grabs, great juggling ability, a decent projectile and more KO potential than the original Mario. Fair enough, he has the worst recovery in the entire game, but Falco has a rather crap recovery and yet people dont seem to mind placing him within the top 4.

Agreed, Doc is solid. I would say he has the 4th best projectile in the game: (Falco > Sheik > Fox > Doc), and his recovery isn't nearly as bad as people make it seem to be. The Tornado gives extra height (and despite what bob$ does, it should be used right after you're done DIing), plus Pills provide some protection as you head towards the stage. Up B has huge priority and the Brawl sweetspot range (seriously, that **** is broken). I would say worst recovery goes to Falco or Roy.

 

[Magus420]

The Tornado gives extra height (and despite what bob$ does, it should be used right after you're done DIing)

It doesn't matter whether you use it first or near the stage. You recover the same total distance either way.

 

[GI Josh]

Maybe it should be like this?

Top
Fox
Shiek
Marth

High
Falco
C.Falcon
Peach

Middle
Jiggs
IC
G-Dorf
That's all the characters I can name off my head...

 

[Ojos de los Caballos Savajes]

Edit: This is why Falco should have his own tier. A good enough character to win tournaments across the board (better than CF, Peach, etc), but not on the same level as Fox, Sheik, and Marth.

Top Tier
Falco Tier
High, Mid, Low, Bottom

A Falco tier, I had the same thought... But, I don't think the disadvantages are too great to warrant his own tier. Sure he's not as good, but I don't think he's a tier apart from them. He has a slight, but definite disadvantage against Marth... Against Sheik, most people say Falco has an advantage, and against Fox, I hear arguments both ways and that it's somewhat stage dependant. (I'm leaning toward Falco having a disadvantage toward Fox, though,)

With the current list I think the tiers are too cut up near the top. And not cut up enough near the middle. Like I don't see why Marth and Sheik are grouped with Peach apart from Fox and Falco, when Marth and Sheik are clearly better than Peach; while a lot of people make cases for Marth and Sheik being the best in the game. Or why Jiggly Puff and Captain Falcon are in the same tier as Dr. Mario, when the best Puffs and Falcons are definite contenders against the best period, and the best Docs... not so much.

So with that, here is my list!!!

Top Tier(no particular order, except Falco is fourth)
Fox
Marth
Sheik
Falco

High Tier(no particular order)
Jiggly Puff
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Peach

Upper Middle Tier(no particular order)
Samus
Ganon
Luigi
Doctor Mario
Mario
Donkey Kong

Lower Middle Tier(no particular order)
Link
Pikachu
Young Link

Low Tier(no particular order)
Zelda
Roy
Game and Watch
Yoshi
Mew 2

Bottom Tier (no particular order)
Bowser
Ness
Kirby
Pichu

I just went along with how I personally mentally group characters based on tourney results. I admit some of it's intuition. I also changed the names of the tiers as well. Just a personal preference. I could see them being changed to top, high, middle, low, bottom, garbage. I didn't order the characters either. That's not for me. Character ordering is something the back room could nitpick. I believe, though there will never be an undisputed consensus on the exact order of every character. The best we'll get is a rough estimate.

Some Forseeable Controversies

Jiggly Puff
I moved Jiggly Puff up. I did this because there are far more Jiggly Puffs placing in the top 32 at national tournaments than any other character below them. And Mango did win that one a little while back... I'm pretty sure on this one.

Luigi
Luigi, High middle? I’m pretty sure with this one, too. It goes against convention. Luigi has always been high low tier. But Luigi Ka Master and a few others have shown us that uses Luigi can place high at tournaments. I moved him up.

Donkey Kong
I moved him up to high middle. I'm not incredibly sure on this one, but I did this because of some of his top, and higher tier matchups. The best Donkey Kong players can contend with the best Fox, Peach and Falcon players. (I saw a Bum set against Cort... [best DK and Peach IMO] I forget who won, but it was close.) DK can also be dangerous to a Falcon (if he can get a grab...) I'm not exactly sure on all the match ups. I'm guessing DK does pretty bad against Marth and Sheik, but I know little about those match ups, I could easily see him going in either high mid, or low mid.

Link
Yes, Links got some things going for him, but against the top tier characters, some of the matchups seem really bad. (Fox, Sheik, Falcon,) and for some of the others there's a definite disadvantage (Falco, Marth).

Bottom Tier
I believe these characters are worse than most the rest of low tier to warrant their own tier. They are disadvantaged in about every match up.

Explanation of my tiers

Top Tier- (Deadly Characters) The best players of these characters, are the best players, period. Probably the majority of tournament players go these characters. They have very exploitable attacks, and few weaknesses. They are all very versatile, and have high potential to be used for gimp kills. None of them are significantly disadvantaged in any match up.

High Tier- (Beastly Characters) High tier characters all see frequent use at the highest level of play. The best players of High tier characters are also among the best players in general. These characters can generally be used to gimp and combo very well. What separates these characters from Top Tier characters is they have a few noticeable and exploitable weaknesses. The weaknesses, however, aren’t so over bearing that it’s impossible to win at the very highest levels of play. For example Chu Dat with Ice Climbers, and Mango with Jiggly Puff, have both won recent major tournaments with high tier characters.

High Middle Tier-(Alright Characters) High Middle characters see sporadic use at the highest level of play. Some of the best of high middle characters can compete with the best in general. What might prevent users of these characters from winning major tournaments is one to a few significantly disadvantaged match ups to characters of one of the above tiers. Players using characters of this tier have placed near the top at recent national tournaments. Examples of people who have done this include Hugs with Samus, and Luigi Ka Master with Luigi, Bum- Donkey Kong.

Low Middle Tier-(Mediocre Characters) The best players of these characters can compete at a very high level. The best players who use these characters can often make it into the top 32 of major tournaments. (Skler with Link and Anther with Pikachu come to mind) At the very highest level of play, users of these characters may be able to compete with some of the best of the higher tiers, however have an extremely difficult time against the best of the top tier users, which gives players of characters of this tier a very unlikely chance to win with on a national level due to top tier’s prevalence. Thus there are very few players who use Low Middle Tier characters in competitive play.

Low Tier- (Below Average Characters) Some of the best players of these characters can compete at a fairly high level. There are few examples of people getting crazy good with these characters probably due to an unwillingness to invest time with a character with obvious weaknesses. A couple of exceptions that come to mind, though are Gimpyfish with Bowser , Taj with Mew 2, and Mow with Zelda. The best players of low tier characters can hold their own fine with some of the best players from the above tiers, but generally have several severely disadvantaged match-ups against good players that use characters approaching the top. Since higher tier characters are what the majority of tournament players use, there are very few low tier characters seen in competitive tournament play.

Bottom tier (Bad Characters) These characters all have very exploitable weaknesses, that seperates them from the tier above.

With the tier list I’ve made I noticed that generally players that use characters of one tier can compete with characters of the above tier, and maybe with one or two characters in two tiers above, but beyond that there’s usually a definite disadvantage.

 

[Vulcan55]

That was a very intelligent first post, I must say.
and I think you mean Pichu in bottom tier, not pikachu.

 

[Ojos de los Caballos Savajes]

That was a very intelligent first post, I must say.
and I think you mean Pichu in bottom tier, not pikachu.

Thanks and thanks.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Its good, but the thing is, if your going to have an absolute garbage tier, Zelda and Bowser would have to be in it. Neither Gimpyfish nor Mow have even slightly proven that their character isn't complete and total garbage. Even mewtwo is debatable as a he may no longer be the "Worst character in the game" but he IS still total ****.

To be completely honest, I have a few problems with the entirety of your lower tier section >.>

 

[Rannskita]

It doesn't matter whether you use it first or near the stage. You recover the same total distance either way.

yes thats true, but it slows horizontal momentum, and doing it straight after DI gives you extra height to create a pill defence as your coming back to stage.

 

[Ojos de los Caballos Savajes]

Its good, but the thing is, if your going to have an absolute garbage tier, Zelda and Bowser would have to be in it. Neither Gimpyfish nor Mow have even slightly proven that their character isn't complete and total garbage. Even mewtwo is debatable as a he may no longer be the "Worst character in the game" but he IS still total ****.

To be completely honest, I have a few problems with the entirety of your lower tier section >.>

I disagree with Bowser. The up and B is too good. Gimpyfish has beaten some notable Spacies... I've seen him beat Eggz's mario, too. I think Bowser might have the advantage against some of the low tiers. Also I beleive Zelda has the advantage against Roy and does alright against Samus, and Jiggly Puff. And the Peach match up isn't terrible... Not in Zeldas favor, but not terrible. That keeps her out of Bottom tier.. And Mew2's can pull off some crazy head games and has one of the best recoveries, and a really sweet combo video,(Shadow Claw) if that counts for anything.

On the other hand, Pichu has got a good recovery, too. And Chu Dat beat Plank with Pichu, that one time. And I remember Krazy Kirby Kid beat Rob$ at Evo south a little over a year ago. When I first made the list I just lumped them with low tier, but then separated Pichu and Kirby out. It might be less controversey if I lumped them back in, but I don't know. I still feel they're the worst by a reasonable margine.

 

[Pink Reaper]

No, the Up B really isn't that good >_> And Gimpy beating a Spacie player with bowser does not change the fact that Bowser gets absolutely mutilated by Fox and Falco. And bringing up individual character match ups I could say I've seen Kirby Kid beat Rob$ like you said, as well as Dr. Drew, Bluezaft among others. This however does not change the character itself, its more about how familiar players are with each other. And for the record Shadow Claw counts for nothing.

 

[Ojos de los Caballos Savajes]

And Gimpy beating a Spacie player with bowser does not change the fact that Bowser gets absolutely mutilated by Fox and Falco.

Not as bad as Kirby or Pichu, IMO. Bowser is even with some of the low tiers like Ness, Game and Watch or Mew 2. And fairs generally better against the higher tiers than Pichu and Kirby. He still gets owned, but the matchups are better none the less. I always thought that Kirby and Pichu had all bad match ups(even if it's a slight disadvantage), except for maybe with each other.
Like I said, I did just lump bottom and low together, and if more people feel the same way as you, I'll reconsider, and go back to that. Or add Mew2 to bottom as well.

 

[otg]

It doesn't matter whether you use it first or near the stage. You recover the same total distance either way.

You are just safer and less vulnerable at the height of your DI than if you do it once you get towards the stage. If you watch Bob$, he almost always waits till he's close to the stage to do it, and gets punished. Someone once told me it because he wanted his opponents to move away from the ledge, but you can accomplish the same thing by shooting pills at them.

 

[HT F8]

Not as bad as Kirby or Pichu, IMO. Bowser is even with some of the low tiers like Ness, Game and Watch or Mew 2. And fairs generally better against the higher tiers than Pichu and Kirby. He still gets owned, but the matchups are better none the less. I always thought that Kirby and Pichu had all bad match ups(even if it's a slight disadvantage), except for maybe with each other.
Like I said, I did just lump bottom and low together, and if more people feel the same way as you, I'll reconsider, and go back to that. Or add Mew2 to bottom as well.

Everyone hates on Kirby. -.-
I know he's not remotely close to God Tier or anything, but Bottom? Really?
What makes him so bad that Pichu and Mewtwo are sometimes ranked above him?

 

[Pink Reaper]

Not as bad as Kirby or Pichu, IMO. Bowser is even with some of the low tiers like Ness, Game and Watch or Mew 2. And fairs generally better against the higher tiers than Pichu and Kirby. He still gets owned, but the matchups are better none the less. I always thought that Kirby and Pichu had all bad match ups(even if it's a slight disadvantage), except for maybe with each other.
Like I said, I did just lump bottom and low together, and if more people feel the same way as you, I'll reconsider, and go back to that. Or add Mew2 to bottom as well.

Actually, Kirby Vs Falco is one of Kirby's least unwinable match ups ever. In upper tier Kirby can actually compete with the likes of Falco, Sheik and Falcon. The match up is still in their favor but its not something like say.....Bowser Vs Sheik. Im not saying that Kirby and Pichu don't deserve bottom two spots(check my tier list, thats where I have them) I am however saying that they don't deserve their own tier. And that Bowser should be no where near the top of bottom tier. I honestly think Bottom tier should look like this:

Roy(Yes ROY. He sucks and you know it)
Zelda
Mewtwo
Boozer
Kirby
Pichu

I think this is reasonable just because its the group of characters that can never, ever hope of winning a tournament on their own. Every other character has at least a sliver of a chance.

 

[metaXzero]

Everyone hates on Kirby. -.-
I know he's not remotely close to God Tier or anything, but Bottom? Really?
What makes him so bad that Pichu and Mewtwo are sometimes ranked above him?

He struggles to KO, has a few useless and/or unsafe moves (NEVER down-throw Luigi, Mario/Doc, or Peach), slow, short wavedash, his KO moves need to sweetspot alot of the time (WTF is with having to tipper the hammer), and can barely combo or punish. Pichu and M2 at least have SOME decent combos and (I think) chain-grabs on some characters (mainly fast-fallers).

My only major beef with Melee that Brawl fixes (though not enough) is Kirby. I really miss 64 Kirby.

 

[Tee ay eye]

I personally also do not believe Marth should be top tier. M2K is good. Yes. im guessing you guys have not seen the kinda recent finals set with Shiz vs. M2K? I'm pretty sure Shiz destroyed M2K with Falco. And you guys are also forgetting how M2K lost to Mango? lol.

****, I forgot who won the set: Shiz or M2k? >__>

Are you forgetting how M2k only used Marth in two matches vs. Mango? Winning one and losing one?

 

[Grunt]

M2K won
He used Fox against Mango anyway, but that was because Mango ***** his Marth.

 

[hoopspr226]

It seems pretty clear to me that Doc's mediocre performance is due to a lack of superstar doc players, not a change in his inherent abilities. He still has all the tools to compete - chain grabs on 3 of the top 4 characters, a great wavedash, one of the best projectiles, and superior combo-ing and tech-chasing.

There is no way that Luigi is better than Doc. The fact that Ka-Master is (a lot) better than any current Doc main disguises the fact that Luigi really has very little over Doc. Doc can do pretty much anything Luigi can do in spacie and falcon matchups, and is better against sheik and perhaps marth as well.

Doc (and Mario) are firmly mid-tiers. They have no awful, unwinable matchups like the low and bottom tiers do (i.e. Link vs. Sheik) and have plenty of weapons to compete with the big boys. All he needs is a superstar player to represent him.

Before anyone says "but tier lists are based on tourney results," it's not. Results can give support to a person's opinion but tier lists should reflect a character's potential and his matchups when played at the top of the metagame, not just how good the players that main them are.

 

[Pink Reaper]

He struggles to KO, has a few useless and/or unsafe moves (NEVER down-throw Luigi, Mario/Doc, or Peach), slow, short wavedash, his KO moves need to sweetspot alot of the time (WTF is with having to tipper the hammer), and can barely combo or punish. Pichu and M2 at least have SOME decent combos and (I think) chain-grabs on some characters (mainly fast-fallers).

My only major beef with Melee that Brawl fixes (though not enough) is Kirby. I really miss 64 Kirby.

Actually, while Kirby may have one of the shortest Wavedashes(tied with Captain Falcon for like, 21st) its actually one of the fastest as Kirby(along with Pichu, Sheik, Fox and.....someone else, Pikachu maybe) has a 3 frame jump. Also, his hammer is not a KO move, Uair is a KO move, that has little lag and quite a bit of knockback. And Kirby does have combos(albeit short combos) like Bair-Utilt-XAir(solve for x) And besides, Pichu's only real combo is Uair times infinity on fast fallers, and even that is easily escaped with proper DI. Same goes with Chain grabs.

Edit:

It seems pretty clear to me that Doc's mediocre performance is due to a lack of superstar doc players, not a change in his inherent abilities. He still has all the tools to compete - chain grabs on 3 of the top 4 characters, a great wavedash, one of the best projectiles, and superior combo-ing and tech-chasing.

There is no way that Luigi is better than Doc. The fact that Ka-Master is (a lot) better than any current Doc main disguises the fact that Luigi really has very little over Doc. Doc can do pretty much anything Luigi can do in spacie and falcon matchups, and is better against sheik and perhaps marth as well.

Doc (and Mario) are firmly mid-tiers. They have no awful, unwinable matchups like the low and bottom tiers do (i.e. Link vs. Sheik) and have plenty of weapons to compete with the big boys. All he needs is a superstar player to represent him.

Before anyone says "but tier lists are based on tourney results," it's not. Results can give support to a person's opinion but tier lists should reflect a character's potential and his matchups when played at the top of the metagame, not just how good the players that main them are.

Ok, this is getting annoying. Why is it that everyone on the Melee boards seems to be a Doc/Mario player who refuses to see whats wrong with their character? You yourself have pointed out that both the Marios and Luigi have about the same match up with the Fast Fallers. However you are entirely wrong about Marth, Marth destroys Doc. On the other hand, Luigi(while still being at a disadvantage) can at least compete with him. Luigi also has better match ups against the likes of Gannon and Spamus. Also, tier lists can no longer really represent potential, as there's really no potential left. Every character has pretty much been taken to their peak, which is the whole reason we're trying to make a new tier list. Mewtwo is no longer the worst, DK and Luigi are no longer low tier, Jigglypuff ***** and the marios are not that good. Get over it.

/rant

 

[hoopspr226]

Edit:



Ok, this is getting annoying. Why is it that everyone on the Melee boards seems to be a Doc/Mario player who refuses to see whats wrong with their character? You yourself have pointed out that both the Marios and Luigi have about the same match up with the Fast Fallers. However you are entirely wrong about Marth, Marth destroys Doc. On the other hand, Luigi(while still being at a disadvantage) can at least compete with him. Luigi also has better match ups against the likes of Gannon and Spamus. Also, tier lists can no longer really represent potential, as there's really no potential left. Every character has pretty much been taken to their peak, which is the whole reason we're trying to make a new tier list. Mewtwo is no longer the worst, DK and Luigi are no longer low tier, Jigglypuff ***** and the marios are not that good. Get over it.

/rant

You could be right about Luigi vs. Marth, I really don't know that matchup very well. I'd like to hear why you think Luigi vs. Marth is significantly better than Doc vs. Marth? While Doc's pills aren't all that effective vs. Marth, they are still a lot better than Luigi's projectile. In addition, Luigi and Doc have similar problems with range and can only reach with their f tilts and bairs (which are pretty similar). Sure Luigi can space with his wavedash and punish fsmashes with wavedash out of shield, but so can Doc.

Also, even if Luigi has better matchups against Ganon and Samus, Doc has better matchups vs. Sheik and Jiggs, two much more commonly seen characters.

Last... even if I were to accept your notion that Luigi has superior matchups to Doc and he belongs in mid tier, by no means does that mean that Doc is deserving of low tier. It would merely mean that they are both in mid tier, with Luigi a little higher. With solid matchups against the most commonly seen characters (except perhaps against Marth) how can you possibly say he deserves to be in low tier? The low tiers all have several terrible matchups with the higher tiers - Doc has one/zero (debateable).

Doc's matchups are exactly in line with the other mid tiers - who have one or two bad matchups and many solid ones vs. the top characters.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I don't think Doc deserves low tier(I think Mario does though >.>)

Luigi does have something over Doc in the Marth match up and thats that his Fair actually has enough priority to hit through alot of his moves. Vs Sheik is definitely in Doc's favor, but Jiggs would probably be about even for the two of them. Also, CF is arguably better for Luigi than for Doc. Also, Doc doesn't really have solid match ups with the likes of Fox and Falco. While he CAN chain throw them and combo them okishly, Fox and Falco still rip him apart with their respective shine abilities. And Luigi actually seems to have an easier time with them as his wavedash allows him to CG and throw combo easier.

 

[otg]

I don't think Doc deserves low tier(I think Mario does though >.>)

Luigi does have something over Doc in the Marth match up and thats that his Fair actually has enough priority to hit through alot of his moves. Vs Sheik is definitely in Doc's favor, but Jiggs would probably be about even for the two of them. Also, CF is arguably better for Luigi than for Doc. Also, Doc doesn't really have solid match ups with the likes of Fox and Falco. While he CAN chain throw them and combo them okishly, Fox and Falco still rip him apart with their respective shine abilities. And Luigi actually seems to have an easier time with them as his wavedash allows him to CG and throw combo easier.

All this from a kirby main lol, nah jk. Doc vs. Ganon is in slightly in Doc's favor, and Doc vs. Jiggly is better than Luigi vs. Jiggly. If Jiggly misses a rest she's dead and Luigi can't say the same. Plus they are both easily edgeguarded which is where Jiggly has the advantage in the match up. Doc's projectiles are tough for Jiggly to deal with, go ask Mango, Doc is one of the only character's he'll switch for.

Luigi doesn't do better vs. Spacies than Doc does, sorry. Doc has an easier time edgeguarding them, and his chain throw can lead into death as long as Doc doesn't make a mistake. As for Doc v. Marth, yea it's a bad matchup for Doc, but how is Luigi vs. Marth any better? Luigi is terrible and slow in the air, and his Fair does not make up for the fact that Marth can Fair the balls out of him, so IMO Doc/Luigi v. Marth is the same.

And finally Reaper, it's not that we don't see Doc's flaws. You play Kirby, so you must be used to this: you work AROUND them. The Mario's do not have any true counters or god awful matchups like you claim. While you are correct that there is very little character potential left to uncover, hoopspr226 is right there are no serious Doc mains left. In fact, I would say that almost all the major comp in Melee strictly use the top 3 (F/S/M), so how are you going to say that one Luigi (ka master) and one good DK (Bum) could change the tiers that much?

It's obvious Doc > Mario, but you can't warrant Luigi and DK moving past both of them. IMO, the tiers are solid minus a few things, we just need to change the tier lines.

 

[ice-]

I agree with the Pink Reaper's statment about potential vs results. I find it hard that the tier list is made of a mix of theory and results. I feel that this creates a method that is too subjective, and can be skewd easily.

 

[Moy]

Game and Watch should be before Zelda; Marth should be before Sheik. Jiggz and Falcon should be higher, while the Climbers should be brought down.

 

[BBQ°]

In my personal opinion Marth needs to move to top tier, probably better than Falco but not Fox. Marth has been the dominating force in tournaments because of Ken and Mew2king, and if he is winning tournaments more than any other character than he should be higher. I know Marth doesn't have as much potential as Falco or Fox, but right now I don't think people are going to get much better. I think Jiggs needs to move up to high tier (I think enough people have proved she can compete). Ice Climbers, Falcon, and Peach should stay the same.

This is how I would construct my tier list

Top:
Fox
Marth
Falco

High:
Sheik
Peach
Jigglypuff

Middle:
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Samus
Dr. Mario
Mario
Ganondorf

Everything else the same

 

[taimaishu99]

Luigi under samus cause of ppl learning how to wavedash and think luigi is funny sliding accross the stage

 

[Blea Gelo]

Luigi under samus cause of ppl learning how to wavedash and think luigi is funny sliding accross the stage

good reason?? pfff.

 

[dudutsai]

Doc vs. Jiggly is better than Luigi vs. Jiggly. If Jiggly misses a rest she's dead and Luigi can't say the same.

I'm not sure I understand, but Luigi can kill if Jiggly misses a rest easier than Doc can.

 

[otg]

I'm not sure I understand, but Luigi can kill if Jiggly misses a rest easier than Doc can.

Uh ... wrong? Hypothetical situation: Jiggly misses a rest.

Doc scenario: cape 4 or 5 times, than charge a quick Fsmash. Death
Luigi scenario: pray shes at a good percentage so "Super Jump Punch" kills?

Luigi can't rack up damage without waking her up, Doc can.

 

[dudutsai]

oh forgot about the cape
Super jump punch starts killing above 40 or 50 though so it's still dangerous

 

[debaser]

In my personal opinion Marth needs to move to top tier, probably better than Falco but not Fox. Marth has been the dominating force in tournaments because of Ken and Mew2king, and if he is winning tournaments more than any other character than he should be higher. I know Marth doesn't have as much potential as Falco or Fox, but right now I don't think people are going to get much better. I think Jiggs needs to move up to high tier (I think enough people have proved she can compete). Ice Climbers, Falcon, and Peach should stay the same.

This is how I would construct my tier list

Top:
Fox
Marth
Falco

High:
Sheik
Peach
Jigglypuff

Middle:
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Samus
Dr. Mario
Mario
Ganondorf

Everything else the same

I like this list

 

[ice-]

Uh ... wrong? Hypothetical situation: Jiggly misses a rest.

Doc scenario: cape 4 or 5 times, than charge a quick Fsmash. Death
Luigi scenario: pray shes at a good percentage so "Super Jump Punch" kills?

Luigi can't rack up damage without waking her up, Doc can.

I don't see how any of this argument is anywhere near important in discussing there tier placements.