General Tier Disccussion

[Grand Mango]

This isn't the "official-everyone-approves"-list, thou' it's written from my point of view. Ness is underated in Melee, especially 2vs2, the fact that he got even better (the rest of the chars got slower) in Brawl will make him even more noticable in Melee. Luigi? I can't really see why he wouldn't be in the bottom-rated list.
Young Link got a nice range and can choose the outcome from 2 vs 1, he got a pretty good smash attack that's pretty hard to avoid (unless you're playing Brawl, might be why they nerfed him).

Hmm, now I'm reflecting my choice, I think I'm pretty happy about the list, Ness is nice in 2 vs 2-mode and he got some mad combos. Made some few changes, anywho this is my list for now.

Absolutely no no at all. Melee and brawl are two seperate games. That said Ness still sucks in brawl. He isn't underrated either (though I'm not going to argue against the fact he pwns most of the lower tiers). Overall he's placed right where he belongs.

Young link is not that good. He lacks any good range to even be considered above any of those you put him above. Falcon? Yeah right. It's combo city on him all day long. He lacks a useful fast fall (in fact the most useless one in the game), range, and a reliable killing move.

Pikachu lacks range as well. His best move is an upsmash and the range is short.

Peach so low? Her float cancel lets her have 4 frames of lag upon landing. That's way better than l-canceling.

You've got a lot to learn about melee before making a tier list.

...

Top/God
Fox
Sheik

High

Falco
Marth
Peach

Middle
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Jigglypuff
Samus
Dr Mario
Mario
Ganondorf
Donkey Kong
Luigi
Link

Low
Roy
Young Link
Pikachu
Zelda
Game & Watch
Ness
Yoshi

Bottom
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu
Mewtwo

That's sort of my list. The only real thing I care about is... well nothing. I think Sheik is top tier. DK, Luigi and Link are out of low tier and into middle. Jigglypuff above Samus because of jigg's ability to wall of pain, edgeguard, and rest Samus easily. Moved the bottom tier around a little bit. Explanation later if you ask for it but this is what i think.

 

[Laijin]

Top/God
Fox
Falco

High
Sheik
Marth
Peach

Middle
Ice Climbers
Samus
Jigglypuff
Young Link <----- Somewhere right here
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf
Doctor Mario

Low
Mario
Link
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Roy
Pikachu

Bottom
Yoshi
Zelda
Game & Watch
Ness
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu
Mewtwo

Young Link really needs to go above Roy, Donkey Kong, Mario, Link and Ice Climbers(Arguably).
He definantly has the advantage in those match ups(unlike the lower/bottom tier characters against higher tier characters).
And really? Why is Doc still so high? lol.

 

[okiyama]

I would put CF above Young Link, because he has so much potential. Also, shiek top tier and falco only high.

Also, you don't know what a god tier is. God tier is "unfair" as in, tournament banned.

 

[Grunt]

Young Link <----- Somewhere right here
Captain Falcon

Are you kidding?

 

[Stroupes]

Can someone tell me why Mewtwo is below Pichu? Pichu's a joke.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Can someone tell me why Mewtwo is below Pichu? Pichu's a joke.

Because Mewtwo is also, and a worse joke at that.

 

[unknown522]

my opinion on the tier list:

Top/God
Fox
Falco
Marth

High
Sheik
Jigglypuff
Peach

Middle
Captain Falcon
Ice Climbers
Ganondorf
Dr Mario
Mario
Samus

Low
Link
Luigi
Donkey Kong
Pikachu
Roy
Young Link
Game & Watch
Bowser

Bottom
Yoshi
Zelda
Ness
Kirby
Pichu
Mewtwo

 

[Stroupes]

But Mewtwo doesn't damage himself. :|

 

[Vro]

Sheik in top tier? Lol.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

Anyone who puts Marth above Fox is severely blind to the metagame.

The last time a Fox player won a national sized tournament was like SCC.


For me...

Top

Marth
Fox

Almost Top

Falco
Sheik
Peach

High

Jiggs
Falcon
ICs
Samus
Luigi

Mid

Doc
Mario
Ganon
Link

Low

(the rest)



Marth / Fox for top as they've been the characters that have consistently placed in the top 3 in just about every national tournament. Marth higher than Fox as Marth has placed first a lot more than Fox has (But that may just be M2K).

Falco shouldn't be in top anymore. He just doesn't place as well as he used to, almost never getting into the top 3 in the 100+ tournies. Sheik below Falco because Sheik has bad (but doable) matchups with Falco / Fox, and is one of the few to have a decent / good matchup against Marth. Peach should be in high as well, as she does pretty well against almost all of the cast outside maybe Marth / Sheik and places pretty well (although that may just be Cort).

Jiggs has been seeing good placings recently. Mango / Darc / Chexr / Hungrybox and others have shown that King is not the only Jiggs who can place well.

Don't really know too much about the rest.



And Top / Almost Top because those 5 characters (minus Peach maybe) are so close it doesn't really matter what order they rank to me.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Why the hell are half the people on page 3 not putting Marth in top tier?

Are you guys ******** or something?

 

[Kyu Puff]

But Mewtwo doesn't damage himself. :|

Mewtwo
- Huge, floaty, light, poor air movement, bad killing moves, subpar combos, bad shield.
+ Good recovery, some range.

Pichu
- No range, self-damaging, light, can be CG'd.
- Good recovery, good combos, fast, small.

Pichu is by no means a good character, mostly due to his lack of range, but take a look at mewtwo's cons. Basically, easy to hit, easy to kill. He is combo'd by every character who can combo, and he's destroyed by every character with a vertical killing move. Pichu's speed compensates for a lot; he can actually maneuver around the other player and not be made into their pet the entire match.

 

[2.72]

And Top / Almost Top because those 5 characters (minus Peach maybe) are so close it doesn't really matter what order they rank to me.

Agreed. IMO the next four are also relatively close, so it'd be logical to give top tier to Marth/Fox/Falco/Sheik and high tier to Peach/Purin/ICs/CF.

((Note for silly people: Purin = Jiggles with extra awesome.))

EDIT: Peach is kinda in between the top 4 and Purin/IC/CF. I'm inclined to stick her in high tier because the top four are so close that she'd look a bit out of place next to them.

 

[HT F8]

But Mewtwo doesn't damage himself. :|

Pichu doesn't damage himself with every move he has, just the lightning-based ones. For example, his 2 best aerials deal no damage to himself.
L2Pichu.

Agreed. IMO the next four are also relatively close, so it'd be logical to give top tier to Marth/Fox/Falco/Sheik and high tier to Peach/Purin/ICs/CF.

((Note for silly people: Purin = Jiggles with extra awesome.))

EDIT: Peach is kinda in between the top 4 and Purin/IC/CF. I'm inclined to stick her in high tier because the top four are so close that she'd look a bit out of place next to them.

It kills me to know that homegirl Samus is just below the threshhold of High/Mid.</3

 

[The Real Inferno]

As an avid Young Link player I must confess he is a pile of crap and anyone who votes him HIGHER than he is now, is insane. If anything he should drop lower a spot. As for Pichu/Mewtwo, Mewtwo has NOTHING going for him. A bad projectile, terrible range on his kill moves, poor combos and so easy to kill, a fly might KO him by landing on his head. Pichu at least has speed and combos and decent (or at least not horrendously terrible) matchups with characters all the way up to Top Tier. He may damage himself, but usually those moves that hurt him aren't the most commonly used attacks either.

 

[Laijin]

Are you kidding?

No.
Okay. So maybe CF should be above YL.
Actually he should.
Its a rough estimate. I took no time to make that tier list.
But anyways. My point is, YL should be much higher.

Sure YL is a pile of **** compard to Fox or Marth, but he definantly has absolute advantages over some characters that are above him(Meaning it'll be a cold day in hell, or a really bad YL player for him to lose to this characters) and has absolute advantages over all the characters below him.
Compared to some other people above him as well, his match ups with the high tiers are a lot better as well. Why am I able to almost beat DaShizWiz's Falco with YL, but a Ness player would get destroyed and *****? :[ My point.

Anyways: Here is a list I put thought into this time

Top
Fox
Sheik

High
Falco
Marth
Peach

Middle
Ice Climbers
Samus
Jigglypuff
Luigi
Captain Falcon
Young Link <----- Somewhere right here
Ganondorf

Low
Doctor Mario
Mario
Link
Roy
Pikachu

Bottom
Yoshi
Donkey Kong
Zelda
Game & Watch
Ness
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu
Mewtwo


YL, as you can see, either absolutely destroys or has a clear advantage over everyone below him except Marios and Ganon. But is higher than Marios because of his awesome match up against Peach, who is a high tier and is above Ganon because against most ganons on an average day, he has the advantage(I've only lost to 2 ganons in my life out of the 29482042 ganons i've played. lol)

 

[HT F8]

No.
Okay. So maybe CF should be above YL.
Actually he should.
Its a rough estimate. I took no time to make that tier list.
But anyways. My point is, YL should be much higher.

Sure YL is a pile of **** compard to Fox or Marth, but he definantly has absolute advantages over some characters that are above him(Meaning it'll be a cold day in hell, or a really bad YL player for him to lose to this characters) and has absolute advantages over all the characters below him.
Compared to some other people above him as well, his match ups with the high tiers are a lot better as well. Why am I able to almost beat DaShizWiz's Falco with YL, but a Ness player would get destroyed and *****? :[ My point.

Anyways: Here is a list I put thought into this time

Okay... you DO know that tiers are supposed to be based on tourney results for the most part, not who you personally think could beat who...

Top
Fox
Sheik

High
Falco
Marth
Peach

Uhhhm. Sheik 2 spots above Marth?
WTB Mew2King.

Middle
Ice Climbers
Samus
Jigglypuff

Good, good.

Luigi
Captain Falcon
Young Link <----- Somewhere right here
Ganondorf

O.O WHAT?
Luigi > CF!?!?
I guess Isai and SS mean nothing...

Low
Doctor Mario
Mario
Link
Roy
Pikachu

Not much to disagree on here.

Bottom
Yoshi
Donkey Kong
Zelda
Game & Watch
Ness
Bowser
Kirby
Pichu
Mewtwo

DK?
IMO he should be low, definately not bottom.

YL, as you can see, either absolutely destroys or has a clear advantage over everyone below him except Marios and Ganon. But is higher than Marios because of his awesome match up against Peach, who is a high tier and is above Ganon because against most ganons on an average day, he has the advantage(I've only lost to 2 ganons in my life out of the 29482042 ganons i've played. lol)

YL destroys nothing, he's horrid.
This would be a good personal tier for you, but for a general SWF tier, that's pretty bad.

Not trying to be a jerk or insult you personally, just disagree with your list.^^;

 

[illboyzeus]

Since no one has done it yet I say why falco is below marth/fox/peach/sheik, and is the 5th best in the game


Pros:
He has incredible approach with the SHL
Very damaging combos
Fast Lateral movement
teh spike

now onto the cons
piss poor recovery, people say falcon's is bad, nope, falco's is the epitome of horrible
Have to work very hard for KO's regularly
Must play near flawless against most of the cast


What it comes down to is that falco has arguably the best offense in the game, but his defense is the definition of terrible. His phantasm is easily stopped and his firebird does not go far and has no damaging frames. If falco is off the stage, he is down a stock, and the metagame has reached the point where it is very easy for this to happen. He is top 5, but not near the best.

 

[JrdnS]

What it comes down to is that falco has arguably the best offense in the game, but his defense is the definition of terrible. His phantasm is easily stopped and his firebird does not go far and has no damaging frames. If falco is off the stage, he is down a stock, and the metagame has reached the point where it is very easy for this to happen. He is top 5, but not near the best.

falcos firebird damages.

plus falco has the highest jump in the game which helps his recovery. hes not 100% screwed if hes off the edge, but he is in trouble.

 

[Pengie]

He means that Falco's Firebird doesn't have a hitbox around him like Fox's Up B. Also, having the highest initial jump in the game doesn't mean anything since you can't use your initial jump once you're off of the stage.

 

[JrdnS]

doesnt he have the highest second jump too?

 

[-Big_-Blue 9]

It's pretty average.

 

[illboyzeus]

falcos firebird damages.

plus falco has the highest jump in the game which helps his recovery. hes not 100% screwed if hes off the edge, but he is in trouble.

Falco off the stage off the stage equals death most of the time, and if he's below it's guaranteed unless he can tech well. The fact of the matter is, is that falco has really ****ty recovery, and this is from a falco main. I've been playing him for three years and I kinda wonder why sometimes because I have to play that much better and work so much harder for wins His ability on the offensive is incredible though

 

[DTKPch]

What's with people suddenly ranking Captain Falcon so low? Last I checked, he still had insane combo ability, lightning speed, and the ability to kill from below 100%. It's not as if players have suddenly stopped using Falcon, either....

Oh, and I feel that Falco should be moved up a bit, if anything. Of course, my opinion may be a bit biased, as I just watched that set of DaShizWiz vs M2K vids, but I don't think Falco's bad recovery is that much of a problem. On the stage, he's a freaking beast. Best projectile in the game. Awesome combos. Punishes bad mindgames well. Not really below Sheik in my opinion.

 

[-Big_-Blue 9]

I think Falco just needs to win some more to keep his spot really.

 

[Boxob]

Luigi and Link both need to be moved up, DK too.

Falco down, same with Falcon.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I don't get why everyone is saying DK needs to move up. He's higher low tier imo (which is where he is), but not mid tier. He's only really good (combo wise) against fast fallers

 

[dudutsai]

Hey this is the list Kyu Puff and I came up with

Top
Marth
Fox
Falco/Sheik

High
Peach
Falcon
ICS/Jigglypuff

Middle
Ganondorf
Samus
Mario
Doctor Mario
Luigi/Link
Pikachu

Low
Donkey Kong
Young Link
Roy
Mr. Game and Watch
Ness
Zelda

Bottom
Yoshi
Bowser
Pichu
Kirby
Mewtwo

 

[Laijin]

YL destroys nothing, he's horrid.
This would be a good personal tier for you, but for a general SWF tier, that's pretty bad.

Not trying to be a jerk or insult you personally, just disagree with your list.^^;

Im prettty sure Young Link destroys all of the characters I listed below him(With the exception of Doc, Mario, Ganon and sometimes Roy and Pikachu). Its like an auto win for Young Link.
Think Kirby vs Fox and you have a good comparison as to what I mean. Then given his good higher tier match ups(He has a slight advantage over ICs and a bigger advantage over Peach and Jigglypuff). I'm pretty sure if people started using YL more he would rise higher.
Same thing happened to Ice Climbers after Chu Dat started playing them, right?

Of course I dont expect anyone to actually agree with my list since well..I can count the amount of good Young Links in the nation on one hand. lol. I'm just going by what i've seen and my experiences with all of the different match ups against good players and i've played my fair share of well known players.

I personally also do not believe Marth should be top tier. M2K is good. Yes. im guessing you guys have not seen the kinda recent finals set with Shiz vs. M2K? I'm pretty sure Shiz destroyed M2K with Falco. And you guys are also forgetting how M2K lost to Mango? lol.

 

[N64]

Laijin, I know you like y. link but i've seen nothing to justify him moving up in the tiers. Jash doing ridiculously well in pound 3 pools against good players (cort that i remember, don't remember who else was in his pool but it was a scary pool) and well Jash doing pretty well in tourneys in general with the kokiri kid is about the only cred i've seen for him lately. You can almost beat dashizwiz's falco? That's nice, I can almost beat (or have beaten) notable players with pika and i still think pika's a garbage character. Place well in some tourneys or point to other notable y. link mains placings lately and i'll change my opinion.

He does have a couple ok matchups above him. Advantage against peach and jiggs I'll agree with, but spacies wreck him, marth probably wrecks him (correct me if that's wrong), and sheik does pretty well too. Similar things happen with other low tiers (it's why they're low tier), they have their couple good matchups up there and the rest generally destroy them. Pika has advantage over a good number of chars above him in low tier (roy, dk, kiiinda link) but those characters do better against mid and above overall than pika does, so he's fine where he is.

For what my opinion's worth, Pika's fine where he is in the tier list. His good matchups in mid-tier and above include falcon and ganon. His even matches are like samus and peach. The rest **** him.

I'd move DK up a bit, to the top of low tier probably. He can hold his own with most of the upper tiers (see Bum, pkmvodka, etc). He doesn't really have any spectacular matchups up there, but he doesn't have more than a couple bad ones above him to my knowledge. Grab combos are ****, upB is ****.

Might move luigi out of low tier (though not ahead of any chars above him). It's not horribly uncommon to see luigis do alright in tourneys these days, at least more common than the other low tiers (except perhaps DK).

Mewtwo up like 2 spots for already-said stuff. Pichu is garbage, and kirby has stubs for limbs.

Jiggs up maybe. Mango's too good, and hungrybox has been doing well too.

Marth up to top tier (probably above falco). He's pretty good yeah.

 

[NeBz]

Marth definetly should be on top. He has so much Range, he's very Mobile, has awesome combos, is a great edge guarder and can't be comboed easily

 

[KevinM]

Wow... Mario and Doc in low?

Scar talk to me on AIM sometime maybe we can think of some kind of Melee BRoom

No offense to people but theres a lot of weird ideas floating around that show lack of tournament experience or character favoritism.

 

[Laijin]

Laijin, I know you like y. link but i've seen nothing to justify him moving up in the tiers. Jash doing ridiculously well in pound 3 pools against good players (cort that i remember, don't remember who else was in his pool but it was a scary pool) and well Jash doing pretty well in tourneys in general with the kokiri kid is about the only cred i've seen for him lately. You can almost beat dashizwiz's falco? That's nice, I can almost beat (or have beaten) notable players with pika and i still think pika's a garbage character. Place well in some tourneys or point to other notable y. link mains placings lately and i'll change my opinion.

He does have a couple ok matchups above him. Advantage against peach and jiggs I'll agree with, but spacies wreck him, marth probably wrecks him (correct me if that's wrong), and sheik does pretty well too. Similar things happen with other low tiers (it's why they're low tier), they have their couple good matchups up there and the rest generally destroy them. Pika has advantage over a good number of chars above him in low tier (roy, dk, kiiinda link) but those characters do better against mid and above overall than pika does, so he's fine where he is.

For what my opinion's worth, Pika's fine where he is in the tier list. His good matchups in mid-tier and above include falcon and ganon. His even matches are like samus and peach. The rest **** him.

I'd move DK up a bit, to the top of low tier probably. He can hold his own with most of the upper tiers (see Bum, pkmvodka, etc). He doesn't really have any spectacular matchups up there, but he doesn't have more than a couple bad ones above him to my knowledge. Grab combos are ****, upB is ****.

Might move luigi out of low tier (though not ahead of any chars above him). It's not horribly uncommon to see luigis do alright in tourneys these days, at least more common than the other low tiers (except perhaps DK).

Mewtwo up like 2 spots for already-said stuff. Pichu is garbage, and kirby has stubs for limbs.

Jiggs up maybe. Mango's too good, and hungrybox has been doing well too.

Marth up to top tier (probably above falco). He's pretty good yeah.

Wow. I have not seen you in like 20 years. lol.
But good point. I've always been meaning to go to more OOS tournaments(and tournaments in general). :| Of course saying stuff that I have done does not really mean anything. lol. I'll get around to traveling more(since its kinda forced now that melee tournaments are scattered).

Marth does'nt wreck YL as badly as you'd think. Least I don't have any major problems with Marth. He struggles a lot more with Sheik and Fox(According to Jash he does'nt have problems with Sheiks, but with Marth? Weird.).

I'd personally move Pikachu up, but ehh. You made a good point. What I was doing was more or less making up a personal tier list according to my match ups rather than a global tier list that considers everyone.(Character favortism according to KevinM)

 

[N64]

It's all good. Yeah, I've had the thought process before of "but Pika has so much potential! He's not bottom of low tier material, he should move up!!" but then who do I move him above? Y. Link does about as well as him in the common matchups (has trouble with fox/falco/sheik, but probably a little better against peach and marth than pika) but then also has more solid matchups than pika in the mid and low tiers. DK? DKs have been doing really well in tourneys lately, can be scary against spacies(depending) and falcon, and doesn't have any absolutely horrible matchups up there (even if marth, sheik, and campy falco can be problematic). Roy? Maybe...Sethlon's one of the only notable Roys that I hear of anymore, and he doesn't really have any strong matchups beyond mid tier to my knowledge. Link? Definately not. Luigi? Definately definately not.

So yeah, even though I don't feel horribly outclassed in my matches against high tiers, Pika's still about where he should be. If you move him up, you'd have to move others down, and I don't see the justifications to do so.

 

[otg]

Sorry Laijin, but Y.Link deserves where he is right now, and the Mario's should stay where they are. I'd have to agree with dudutsai's list except that Fox should go above Marth just based on the fact that if we all played frame perfect he would be untouchable. I like the idea of putting characters next to one another (IE: Icies/Jiggly), certain characters really have no specific edge over one another.

 

[illboyzeus]

Jiggs should be seventh on the tier list, right under c.falcon.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Luigi? Definately definately not.

Are you crazy?
Or in a more polite way: Why do you think that luigi should stay in the low tier?

 

[Grunt]

Marth > Sheik
Jiggs>Samus
All is right.

 

[Vro]

Or in a more polite way: Why do you think that luigi should stay in the low tier?

Because he has terrible recovery and no shining points except his wavedash.

 

[Laijin]

Sorry Laijin, but Y.Link deserves where he is right now, and the Mario's should stay where they are. I'd have to agree with dudutsai's list except that Fox should go above Marth just based on the fact that if we all played frame perfect he would be untouchable. I like the idea of putting characters next to one another (IE: Icies/Jiggly), certain characters really have no specific edge over one another.

Frame Perfect? Thats going a bit too far. If you played a frame perfect fox that still will not make him untouchable. That would just make you really techy. You still have to be able to have sufficient mind games, experience(what to do in situations), etc etc. Lots of things factor in.

I would still put Fox above Marth because Fox clearly excels in everything in game unlike every other character.
His camping game is better than most, as well as his recovery, speed, killing ability, combo-ing ability, grabs, gimping ability, etc etc.
If you look at it that way, Fox is obviously clearly excels at every category.
While if you look at some other high tiers:
Falco does not have good recovery and is only fast vertically.
Sheik can not camp as well as Fox nor can she also gimp as well or kill as fast(unless its against Fox of Falco. lol).
Marth has bad recovery.
Peach can't kill as fast as Fox and her grabs are not as good. She is also slow

Those are just examples and I dont wanna spend too much time going over details. But IMO, Fox should be at the top followed by Sheik. Then Falco, Marth and Peach.

Marth clearly has problems against a good Falco(See Shiz vs. M2K).
A Sheik because she has virtually has no bad match ups against the rest of the cast, as with Marth he struggles a bit against Jigglypuff(See M2K vs Mango). Sure some can argue Sheik vs ICs. But its not bad at all as long as you space and don't rely on grabs(See Forward vs Chudat)