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Matchup-wise and Performance-wise, Luigi is every bit as good as doc.luigi should be higher but not above doc.
Luigi and Doc numerically do the same in the following matchups: Fox/Falco/Marth/Peach/Falcon/Jiggz/Icies/SamusMatchup-wise and Performance-wise, Luigi is every bit as good as doc.
If you're basing that off of the matchup chart, just keep in mind that the matchup chart is pretty unreliable because of the sheer amount of information it attempts to keep track of.Luigi and Doc numerically do the same in the following matchups: Fox/Falco/Marth/Peach/Falcon/Jiggz/Icies/Samus
Sheik ***** Luigi more
Doc/Mario have an edge against Luigi. Ganon > Luigi, Doc/Mario > Ganon. As for the low tiers on who cares.
Luigi's in the right spot, they have similar matchups in the top tiers but the Mario's beat out the top of the Low tier.
Although that matchup chart is flawed, it's not completely wrong. And no, I didn't base all my opinions off of that. Go to the Luigi boards and look up his matchups there. I know the Doc matchups and my crewmate mains Luigi so I have a lot of experience against him, and use him as a reference for matchups.If you're basing that off of the matchup chart, just keep in mind that the matchup chart is pretty unreliable because of the sheer amount of information it attempts to keep track of.
Forgive a noob for asking, but why is Roy so bad? He has good range and is a good edge guarder. Sure, his combos aren't as great and so is his attacks but isn't that why he's so much lower than Marth?Roy in mid tier ? lol move him to bottom tier and put DK in the mid tier.
Roy is an absolutely horrible character. His ok range is off put by the fact that his attacks are as weak as a paper fan unless sweetspotted at extreme close range. He has the bad combination of being light weight, fast falling and having the worst recovery in the game, making killing him easy. His attacks don't combo well(or in most cases, at all) and his only reliable kill moves are his Fsmash and Neutral B attacks. His edge guarding abilities are actually horrible as all of his moves are so obvious that they should be easily teched(assuming you can ledge tech) and his aerial movement and recovery are so bad that he risks killing himself attempting to edge guard off the stage. He's easily comboed, his ground game is bad, his air game is bad, he's just bad. He deserves bottom tier.Forgive a noob for asking, but why is Roy so bad? He has good range and is a good edge guarder. Sure, his combos aren't as great and so is his attacks but isn't that why he's so much lower than Marth?
*Hides under a table*
D:Roy is an absolutely horrible character. His ok range is off put by the fact that his attacks are as weak as a paper fan unless sweetspotted at extreme close range. He has the bad combination of being light weight, fast falling and having the worst recovery in the game, making killing him easy. His attacks don't combo well(or in most cases, at all) and his only reliable kill moves are his Fsmash and Neutral B attacks. His edge guarding abilities are actually horrible as all of his moves are so obvious that they should be easily teched(assuming you can ledge tech) and his aerial movement and recovery are so bad that he risks killing himself attempting to edge guard off the stage. He's easily comboed, his ground game is bad, his air game is bad, he's just bad. He deserves bottom tier.
Not that it matters, but I remember Magus once posted that in frame perfect play, Bowser would be third best (because the game would degenerate into ledge-camping and who can ledgecamp the most effectively) (unless somehow rules were added to limit ledgestalling).I'm always really amused when people who aren't top level players argue over tier lists and such.
I've discussed this with others, but realistically, there should be two different tier lists based on potential of a character, and a possible third list (NOT a tier list, as this is not the definition of) based on tourny wins. Tier lists are to represent how good a character is, not how much they win tournaments. How much a character wins tournaments often reflects the tiers, but it doesn't define those tier lists in any way. Player skill always outmatches character given that the matchups don't favor the one character too heavily (Sheik vs... pretty much any low tier...).
The first tier list would have to be "Unlimited Potential". Given perfect control, blah blah blah, I don't need to explain this. Without a doubt, Fox's shine becomes the most broken thing ever, followed by Falco's due to the increased number of frames Falco requires to jump. IMO, Sheik follows in third. Marth being at fourth could possibly even be contested. At a perfect level of play, Marth is NOT fast enough to compete with other characters. Whatever, I don't like this list because it is cause for too much speculation past the top two characters.
The second tier list is "Human Potential". By human potential, tech skill is not everything. We focus mostly on characters
1. on stage survivability
2. off state recovery
3. gimp game
4. combo ability
5. overall speed
6. KO potential
Fox - Overall, Fox is a ridiculous character. He loses points in 1 and 2 because of how easily fast fallers are comboed and his somewhat predictable and gimpable recovery. Strong in 3-6.
Blurg, I'm hungry. I might continue with this later. Probably not.
@ eggmPerfect play to win frame by frame play is really little beyond how flexible your infinite ledgestall is and whether you have a 1 frame invincibility move. It'd be Fox/Bowser in God tier, Falco in Top, and everyone else in Can't-Beat-Any-Of-The-Above tier. For those I believe it'd theoretically be like this:
Fox > Falco - Fox can beat Falco's ledge camping by stealing it and then getting free damage after he's left open doing his up-b. Falco can also beat Fox's ledge camping. Fox's up-b doesn't hit until the 20th so he has time to slip in and grab it in time. Fox has control of wherever Falco goes with his shine range and walking speed advantage. Fox can force Falco into a run to stay in range with his shine as his walk is slightly faster than Falco's, and then Falco would require a frame of crouching to be able to shine while Fox can still shine immediately at any time.
Bowser = Falco - Bowser can beat Falco's ledge camping. Falco can't beat Bowser's ledge camping, since if he tries to steal the edge Bowser is using his double jump to stall and isn't committed to anything like Fox/Falco's stalls, and can simply land on the stage rather than fastfall to regrab and continue the stall. Plus by grabbing the edge, Falco will either be giving the ledge right back to him or getting hit if he tries to stall. On the stage Falco should have control of Bowser's movement, but it doesn't matter because he has no way of getting/keeping him there. Bowser is impossible to hit, and it's impossible to interrupt his stall without Falco himself taking damage and then losing.
Bowser = Fox - Same deal as Falco/Bowser.
You basically used mine, bro.My ideas are constantly changing so don't think that this is what I want the finalized thing to be.
It's funny how usually m2k's word is the word of god but on this case everyone ignores his sheik/fox/marth opinion.Yes he still thinks that.
Dude you don't have to be so defensive all the time, I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out a dissenting opinion that happens to be from you that everyone apparently forgets about come tier discussion time.Sheik IS The best character
almost 2 weeks ago at chus biweekly, I lost to some random mario with marth, then the next match I 4 stocked him with sheik.
my fox lost to topes sheik, but i 3 stocked him in sheik ditto, non CG
so don't even give me that, "then why don't you use her" line, I use her a ton. If anyone thinks otherwise they are a youtube SCRUB who's opinion is invalid. In fact, any argument similar to anything about me using Sheik is invalid because you have no idea what you would be talking about.
edit - i was playing really sub-par at pound3, don't use that in any arguments, just listen to me, because I know the game far better than any of you ever will.
Sheik
Fox
Marth
Falco (btw, Neo and Cactuar both agree with this top 4, not only myself, and Ken says Sheik's better than Marth too)
Falcon/Peach/Jiggs/ICs
Doc
DK
that is my opinion of the top 10
oh yes and DK counts Fox badly on FD, and Poke. A week after Bum almost beat me, me and chillin were having an argument, and we had a DK vs Fox MM as the solution to the argument that DK counters fox, and on FD all i did was CG him and I 3 stocked him at low % because of the broken CG that DK has on Fox on that stage. I also think DK has more tourney potential than Ganon, and possibly Luigi and Pikachu as well, although it's very close. I think Samus sucks at high level, just horribly. I think Kirby and Ness are worse than Pichu Mewtwo Bowser, and Bowser isn't that bad at all just so you all know.
edit 2 - being an arrogant douchebag is fun
Hey, me and Scar agree with M2K about it. Have you seen what I though it should look like?It's funny how usually m2k's word is the word of god but on this case everyone ignores his sheik/fox/marth opinion.
i don't understand how this proves anything. there are too many variables (each player's comfort level with the match up for example) for this to be a solid reason for sheik being the best. not that she isn't, i just think a more solid argument needs to be made.Sheik IS The best character
almost 2 weeks ago at chus biweekly, I lost to some random mario with marth, then the next match I 4 stocked him with sheik.
Well, Scar was just posting m2k's opinion, he wasn't necessarily endorsing it.Hey, me and Scar agree with M2K about it. Have you seen what I though it should look like?