Still not fast enough. And even if it was, FC Power Shields allow Peach to move a bit so she could just escape a multishine by power shielding it and moving ever so slightly back.
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General Tier Disccussion
- Thread starter The Real Inferno
- Start date
Winston
Smash Master
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
I hear lots of talk about m2k having made a tier list (or a big post about his opinion on the tier list). could someone link me to this post? (if there is a specific post or thread)
BTW, I don't understand why everybody puts fox on the very top as if it isn't even arguable that characters like sheik or marth (and maybe falco) deserve that spot. I'm not saying sheik and marth are better then fox period, not at all, Im saying it's arguable that they are.
Fox's low priority hurts him alot imo, it's not that bad but if it's compared with sheik's, marths or peach's priority fox's overall priority looks like a joke. (correct me if I'm wrong on that one)
Unimportant nonsense. Mario has a red hat. Discussion over.
learn2read fool
Winston
Smash Master
Where's Magus? We need someone to test FC Power Shields against Perfect Frame Multi Shines.
Grunt
Smash Master
Luigi has a green hat.
Kirby has both
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
oh snap the mario bros have been owned by a pink ball
red hats->green hats. undebatable fact
red hats->green hats. undebatable fact
Winston
Smash Master
Well Magus has already given his vote for Fox as God Tier, so doesn't that imply that he thinks shines > FC power shielding?
Oracle
Smash Master
Why is luigi low? He does have an amazing wavedash, a great fair, dair, and bair, and possibly the best vertical recovery in the game.
Winston
Smash Master
Disadvantaged to Marth and Sheik, doesn't have the advantage on Peach, Falcon, Fox, Falco, Ganon...
(I know Luigi has sick combo/techchases on fast fallers, but that doesn't mean he has the advantage. Lots of low tier have combos on fastfallers. Fox/Falco/Falcons that know how to fight Luigi are certainly not at the disadvantage.)
He should be higher than he is, but he's not top or high tier material.
How good a character's attributes are only matter in relation to the other relevant (read: top/high tier) characters in the game.
Also, Luigi's recovery is pretty awful. Even vertical-wise, it's certainly not the best in the game (Marth, G&W, Samus, Mewtwo, Pikachu...)
Magus420
Smash Master
Powershielding non-projectiles has shield stun. Fox can shine again before Peach can even get off the ground. Shine has a 0 frame startup anyway, so how would you even be able to powershield the 1st one unless you already knew what their inputs were going to be ahead of time?
Multishines > FC Powershielding, but Shield Smash DI > Multishines.
I thought shines had one frame start ups and that there was at least a two frame time between each frame >.>
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
a two frame time between each frame? wot
Magus420
Smash Master
It hits on frame 1. What do you mean by 'at least a two frame time between each frame'?
I meant between each shine, Im just a bit distracted >.<
Magus420
Smash Master
Yeah, there is some time between the shines but like I said, between the block stun (4) and startup on Peach's jump (5), Fox can shine again before she can even get off the ground let alone have time to DJ land and then powershield again.
And again that doesn't really matter much since if you do block a shine you can instead just SDI well out of range of any additional JC shines anyway.
And again that doesn't really matter much since if you do block a shine you can instead just SDI well out of range of any additional JC shines anyway.
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
What's with this SDI thing, don't you have to get hit to be able to SDI in the first place? We're talking about shielding shines not getting hit by them aren't we? I'm missing something here >.>
Magus420
Smash Master
You can SDI during shield hitlag, and ASDI on the 1st frame following hitlag.
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
Oh ok, good to know.
Winston
Smash Master
Even if you do get out of range of the Multishining through SDI, does that give you a method to hit fox before he returns to a neutral state (e.g. he wavedashes backwards, not sure what the best course of action is) and is able to start hitting you again?
Otherwise I don't see how SDI > shine... you don't gain any advantage.
and if SDI > shine, why is Fox god tier anyway?
Otherwise I don't see how SDI > shine... you don't gain any advantage.
and if SDI > shine, why is Fox god tier anyway?
metaXzero
Smash Champion
n00by question about perfect shining. Wouldn't a projectile force the multishining to a halt?
Winston
Smash Master
Well, you're not just randomly spamming perfect shining; you'd shine when it would actually hit them.
otg
Smash Master
So let's get more discussion going on here. So far I'd have to agree with M2K's list way back on pg.14, it was something along the lines of this:
Top 10
Sheik
Fox
Marth
Falco
Icies/Falcon/Peach/Jiggly
Doc
DK
The rest don't matter, thoughts?
Top 10
Sheik
Fox
Marth
Falco
Icies/Falcon/Peach/Jiggly
Doc
DK
The rest don't matter, thoughts?
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
I agree with m2k aswell, although im not entirely sure about fox being better then marth, but its so close anyway. Sheik is the best however imo.
And i think its nice having falco in his own tier since hes so different from the rest of the top tiers. Sheik, fox and marth mainly revolve around a bait and punishment game whereas falco's all about high pressure. (off course you could play bait&punish with falco aswell, but he's significantly worse at it then the 3 other top tiers)
About the last part of the higher tier list, id say:
Peach
Falcon
Jiggly
IC's
Lol wtf I just put ICs last on that list. peach, falcon and jiggly are to good.
And no way DK moves up THAT much on the list. Samus and Ganon own him. So does Luigi.
this is all my opinion btw (just thought id remind people just in case somebody reading this is stupid)
And i think its nice having falco in his own tier since hes so different from the rest of the top tiers. Sheik, fox and marth mainly revolve around a bait and punishment game whereas falco's all about high pressure. (off course you could play bait&punish with falco aswell, but he's significantly worse at it then the 3 other top tiers)
About the last part of the higher tier list, id say:
Peach
Falcon
Jiggly
IC's
Lol wtf I just put ICs last on that list. peach, falcon and jiggly are to good.
And no way DK moves up THAT much on the list. Samus and Ganon own him. So does Luigi.
this is all my opinion btw (just thought id remind people just in case somebody reading this is stupid)
otg
Smash Master
Hmmm, the more I play with DK the better I believe he truly is. DK vs. Spacies is almost even but very stage dependent, and his matchups vs. Icies/Ganon/Marth is very evenish. I would say strictly based on matchups he's higher than Ganon and Samus.
unknown522
Some guy
^ I agree with this
El HP
Smash Ace
Samus and luigi don't own DK in fact he has the advantage in those matches and ganon has a slight advantage on him mostly because of his crappy shield.
Europhoria
Smash Lord
okiyama
Smash Ace
DK has a billion and a half chain throws against Space animals. If you're on FD 0-deaths are ridiculously easy, if you're on somewhere flatish like PS you can get good combos, not 0-deaths though. He's very stage dependent for his chain grabs.
Against marth he gets *****, if the marth has any idea how to space that is beacuse pretty much all of marth's attacks outrange anything DK has and since DK's slowish he can't use his speed to beat the range the way that fox can.
Ganon and DK are pretty much even, if they both use their fast moves they are pretty much evenly speeded and their powers are pretty close but I'm going to go with ganon when it ocme right down to it because he has better edge guarding and combos IMO.
Against marth he gets *****, if the marth has any idea how to space that is beacuse pretty much all of marth's attacks outrange anything DK has and since DK's slowish he can't use his speed to beat the range the way that fox can.
Ganon and DK are pretty much even, if they both use their fast moves they are pretty much evenly speeded and their powers are pretty close but I'm going to go with ganon when it ocme right down to it because he has better edge guarding and combos IMO.
otg
Smash Master
It's relatively even, on certain flat stages he can chaingrab 0-death, and it's still incredibly effective on platforms due to DK's awesome grab range and tech chase game. Also, do you know how far DK can go out while edgeguarding and still make it back? Far, really ****ing far. You wall of pain like nuts with Bairs, so he has a lot of options.
So I wouldn't say FFers **** the living hell out of DK, it's very stage dependent.
Europhoria
Smash Lord
This talk of chain-grab is awesome, it really is. Believe me I understand that on FD and most other stages out of a tech chase DK can easily 0-death them... Except that for DK to grab a space animal is a living nightmare. It's like saying the Ice Climbers can wobble Peach to death therefore the match up is even/close as well. >_>
The spacies will just camp+spam d-air. Hell, DK's shield is so hideous that they don't need to camp. They can just rambo him with d-airs and **** him. On FD vs. Falco if anything, it gets worse for DK because he has 0 answer to laser spam.
The spacies will just camp+spam d-air. Hell, DK's shield is so hideous that they don't need to camp. They can just rambo him with d-airs and **** him. On FD vs. Falco if anything, it gets worse for DK because he has 0 answer to laser spam.
Magus420
Smash Master
Powershielding is actually really easy and effective with DK if you duck while facing away. I wonder if I'm the only one who does that, lol.
Too good xD
Too good xD
I love you.Powershielding is actually really easy and effective with DK if you duck while facing away. I wonder if I'm the only one who does that, lol.
Too good xD
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
^^Cool. You know so much about this game magus, it's to good lol
Btw, would that mean that he can't powershield a projectile if crouching and facing towards? (since the shield isn't actually covering the front part of his body)
Btw, would that mean that he can't powershield a projectile if crouching and facing towards? (since the shield isn't actually covering the front part of his body)
otg
Smash Master
DK has a lot more options than you give him credit for, and I agree he can get camped out very easily. But in case you didn't realize, this is Melee so camping isn't the end all tactic that defines this game. Use of platforms, powershielding and light shielding can mute most 'unstoppable' approaches and camping.
On FD, he can powershield, WD out of the shield, etc etc. Dude there are so many options in this game. DK has a huge grab range, and if you read the Q&A section on the DK boards, they are coming up with new situations and hypothetical ideas to get in grabs, or even just chain in more Uairs. In the end, vs. Spacies getting grabs isn't as important as comboing the balls out of them via Uairs and Bairs, something that chaingrabbing aids, but isn't completely necessary.
Anyway, the main point of the comment I left initially was that DK's matchups are better than Samus's and Ganon's. I might be wrong, but it's my opinion.
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
How does dk start a uair combo without a grab? the only other way I can think of is through a dair, which is probably even harder to land then a grab.
Europhoria
Smash Lord
DK has a lot of options if he can actually get a hold of a space animal. Good Fox/Falco's won't miss l-cancels, or run into crouch cancels/shields and give you free grabs.
You're spending all your time looking at what DK can do when and if he gets inside on a space animal but not paying any attention to how hard it is to get in on them, or to what they can do back to him that ***** him.
I've been talking a bunch with PKMVodka about this and I think he would agree that DK vs. Fox/Falco isn't close; especially vs. Falco.
You're spending all your time looking at what DK can do when and if he gets inside on a space animal but not paying any attention to how hard it is to get in on them, or to what they can do back to him that ***** him.
I've been talking a bunch with PKMVodka about this and I think he would agree that DK vs. Fox/Falco isn't close; especially vs. Falco.
Kyu Puff
Smash Champion
With an up-air?...
okiyama: I'm fairly sure that the Marth match-up is supposed to be even. DK by no means is shortranged; b-air reaches almost as far as anything Marth has to offer (albeit without the disjointed hitbox), his d-tilt is a good poke with range, his up+B hits Marth from behind and oos, and giant punch is a huge ranged finisher. Marth can combo DK with f-airs, but never finish him as long as DK DIs upward.
A good way to measure the Fox vs DK match-up is to watch the m2k vs Bum videos. Both are excellent players, and Bum manages to give m2k's Fox a run for his money. M2k probably has something else to say about this, but judging by the videos, and the how high he places DK, I'd say he found Bum and DK to be a formidable opponent. Bum plays very passively and as long as m2k attacks, Bum is able to gain an advantage. In the end m2k takes the set by playing less aggressively, falling back on lasers, and forcing DK to approach.
Edit -- Wobbling doesn't make Peach vs ICs even because Peach easily separates Nana. However, wobbling definitely increases ICs chance of winning certain match-ups. At SCC, where wobbling was legal, Wobbles beat Ken (Marth/Luigi), beat HugS (Samus), and took a game from Cort (Peach), placing 5th.