General Tier Disccussion

[Mew2King]

doc has better tools for winning, his bair is better, his down smash is better, his cape is better for gimping

all mario really has better is, less landing lag from aerials, and some moves have better damage

for WINNING TOOLS, doc has mario beat by a good amount, especially in the gimp department

 

[metaXzero]

I thought the only big thing between the Marios was Doc's F-air is a better finisher........

 

[Dark Hart]

i don't understand how this proves anything. there are too many variables (each player's comfort level with the match up for example) for this to be a solid reason for sheik being the best. not that she isn't, i just think a more solid argument needs to be made.

A players comfort level with certain match-ups doesn't affect the Tier, buddy. If a perfect Sheik was going against a perfect ________, the Sheik would win.

 

[metaXzero]

? What happen to those saying a perfect Fox would beat everything?

 

[Dark Hart]

? What happen to those saying a perfect Fox would beat everything?

A perfect Fox could never beat a perfect Marth or Falco in a set.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I thought the only big thing between the Marios was Doc's F-air is a better finisher........

Actually there alot of minute differences between the two. The Fair is usually the most obvious one but there's also the Dair, which has slightly less knockback than Doc's. Mario's Uair has more of an upward trajectory making it easier to Uair juggle, and his Utilt is a much better launcher as it's entire hitbox is an upward launcher. Mario's Cape can be used twice in the air for a little bit of recovery distance, his Dtilt(while still useless) has a different trajectory than Doc's. His Fsmash is also a bit weaker, but the hitbox on it is huge giving it alot more range. His jumping hight is just a tiny bit higher than Doc's and his Bair is slightly weaker. His Nair is a normal sex kick while doc has the only reverse sex kick(It starts weak and gets stronger over time, Viagra Kick FTW) There's also the Fireball/Pill thing but they're both equally as useful(or useless if you consider how little hit stun they have, they're really not that good beyond a certain range) Uhhhhh....I think thats it.

Edit:

A perfect Fox could never beat a perfect Marth or Falco in a set.

A frame perfect Fox could perfectly pillar a shield making it break every time an opponent put it up meaning that every time someone shielded they would take around 40+ damage from laser/Usmash.

 

[metaXzero]

Like I said Reaper, big differences. I already know the majority of their attacks have different properties. But those aren't so different that you would use those specificly differently from each other (when using the Marios). But the F-airs properties have big enough differences for different uses. Like how space animal Shines have different uses.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Alright, how bout this. The big difference between Doc and Mario, the thing that makes Mario worse is in fact that Mario doesn't have that killer Fair(sort of) Because Doc's Dthrow/Uthrow combo into his Fair he has a reliable way to kill at the lower 100%'s and a way to set up edge guards at even lower damages. Mario however, lacking a killer aerial move, has to find other ways to kill. His Fsmash is strong, and does have good range, but its still easily avoidable and with proper DI, won't kill until much higher damages than Doc's Fair. His Bthrow, while definitely good for setting up edge guards is also easy to DI and floaty characters will be able to survive it for a long time. Essentially, Mario's main problem is that he has no reliable way to kill from center stage. While Doc can Dthrow->Fair you off the top of the screen, Mario's best option would be Dthrow->Nair and attempt to edge guard you.

 

[SHDW23]

A players comfort level with certain match-ups doesn't affect the Tier, buddy. If a perfect Sheik was going against a perfect ________, the Sheik would win.

you didn't read what i wrote. that is exactly what i was saying: m2k's match with some mario where he does better as sheik than marth proves nothing. as to the perfect sheik beating the prefect anything else, i think you're wrong. i don't see how based on perfect control your list goes: sheik, marth/falco, fox, that doesn't make sense to me. but it doesn't matter because i argee with cactuar:

The first tier list would have to be "Unlimited Potential". Given perfect control, blah blah blah, I don't need to explain this. Without a doubt, Fox's shine becomes the most broken thing ever, followed by Falco's due to the increased number of frames Falco requires to jump. IMO, Sheik follows in third. Marth being at fourth could possibly even be contested. At a perfect level of play, Marth is NOT fast enough to compete with other characters. Whatever, I don't like this list because it is cause for too much speculation past the top two characters.

a tier list based on "unlimited potential" is unrealistic.

 

[Grunt]

how about we create a tier list the way we're supposed to?

 

[Scar]

THIS IS CACTUAR.

Not that it matters, but I remember Magus once posted that in frame perfect play, Bowser would be third best (because the game would degenerate into ledge-camping and who can ledgecamp the most effectively) (unless somehow rules were added to limit ledgestalling).

Found the post:



@ eggm

A while ago m2k posted that it's Sheik Fox Marth in that order at the top, does he still think that?

That bowser stuff from Magus is a bunch of crap. Given that the "perfect play to win" strategy is camping, the bowser would get hit with at least 1 laser prior to reaching the ledge, else have his shield broken. At most, the bowser could PS the first laser on the way to the ledge, then use his frame invincibility from up-b to pass through the second laser. Ledgestalling is not a viable strategy with that fat piece of sexy garbage at that level of perfect play. The Fox/Falco would be impossible to defeat on stage, and it would be impossible to reach the ledge fast enough to ledgecamp without getting hit with a laser with any character other than Peach, as other characters don't have the FCPS as demonstrated in Perfect Control.

Pretty much everything else related to that conversation devolves into "Bowser would need the lead before he would be allowed to camp the ledge."

 

[Pink Reaper]

Before anyone says it, Fox's SHDL has enough open frames to avoid any power shielded lasers.

 

[Magus420]

THIS IS CACTUAR.





That bowser stuff from Magus is a bunch of crap. Given that the "perfect play to win" strategy is camping, the bowser would get hit with at least 1 laser prior to reaching the ledge, else have his shield broken. At most, the bowser could PS the first laser on the way to the ledge, then use his frame invincibility from up-b to pass through the second laser. Ledgestalling is not a viable strategy with that fat piece of sexy garbage at that level of impossibly play. The Fox/Falco would be impossible to defeat on stage, and it would be impossible to reach the ledge fast enough to ledgecamp without getting hit with a laser with any character other than Peach, as other characters don't have the FCPS as demonstrated in Perfect Control.

Pretty much everything else related to that conversation devolves into "Bowser would need the lead before he would be allowed to camp the ledge."

Bunch of crap? Willing to put money on your theory that Bowser can't reach an edge unscathed against Fox in frame by frame play?

 

[Winston]

Bunch of crap? Willing to put money on your theory that Bowser can't reach an edge unscathed against Fox in frame by frame play?

Are you going to make a video of this to prove it? =) Cause that would be super sexy.

Also, isn't projectile powershielding different from melee powershielding in that it is lagless?

And why do some people seem to magically know whenever they're being mentioned in a thread? >.>

 

[Magus420]

It's lagless in the sense that it has no shieldstun. That doesn't mean you can powershield again in time though because you need to drop your shield which takes time.

 

[otg]

m2k: Nice, I definitely agree with this for the most part. I'm surprised you think Samus is so awful though... w'e.

Yo frame perfect vids please?

 

[Winston]

m2k: Nice, I definitely agree with this for the most part. I'm surprised you think Samus is so awful though... w'e.

Yo frame perfect vids please?

Lol, I think making frame perfect vids of non-negligible duration takes a good amount of time...

It's also true that tournament results do not reflect how good a character is; Samus has been too high previously on the backs of phenomenal players like HugS.

She just doesn't do well against Fox, Marth, or Falcon at all.

And basically doesn't have favorable matches (besides vs ICs) among the rest of the high/top characters.

I don't know enough to say whether or why Ganon, Doc, DK or Luigi are better than her, but I'm just saying that she isn't THAT good a character; we're just too used to seeing her as good because a lot of samus mains have done really well in the past.

 

[Cactuar]

Magus (This is for name searching)

Please explain how you think Bowser would reach the ledge through laser spam without taking damage, as I am actually curious how that would be achieved beyond what I have already said.

Even if you did manage it through some miracle of frame perfect play, you still would not have done damage to the Fox/Falco (at least not more than they had done to you),
^^^
****
which is the point of the argument, NOT that you can simply reach the ledge. You MUST have % advantage before ledgestalling.
****

Not having done any damage to the opponent Fox/Falco prior to ledgestalling is pretty futile. The point of the argument isn't "who can ledgestall better", its "who has the advantage in frame perfect play" which also denotes that we would be using standard rules applied to that. Bowser can't approach. He is at a disadvantage having to PS in the first place, and at any point where he is forced to move.


Edit: Also, this whole argument is pretty pointless as I have already discussed my views on the "Unlimited Potential" Tier List.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Lol, I think making frame perfect vids of non-negligible duration takes a good amount of time...

It's also true that tournament results do not reflect how good a character is; Samus has been too high previously on the backs of phenomenal players like HugS.

She just doesn't do well against Fox, Marth, or Falcon at all.

And basically doesn't have favorable matches (besides vs ICs) among the rest of the high/top characters.

I don't know enough to say whether or why Ganon, Doc, DK or Luigi are better than her, but I'm just saying that she isn't THAT good a character; we're just too used to seeing her as good because a lot of samus mains have done really well in the past.

Oh well in that case, Marth really isn't THAT good of a character, its just that M2K plays him(her? Jury's still out)

And I love how you say Samus doesn't do well against Fox, are you serious? She goes even with the furry, and has an advantage over the likes of Falco and Sheik. Samus is one of the better characters out there, she has great range, godly recovery, good(albeit not the best) projectile game, good edge guarding, the best CC in the game. If anything the character who gets too much attention is Falcon, fool gets ***** by soooo many characters.

 

[Magus420]

Why would I need to search to find your post in a thread I've been posting in and been subscribed to for quite some time?

Lasers have hitlag and shield knockback. You can lightshield them and multiple SDI towards the edge to reach it rather quickly and then fastfall.

If there's a rule that explicitly states that you need to have more damage on your opponent before you are allowed to reposition yourself to the edge then yeah he's trash, but since there isn't one that I'm aware of he can turn any unwinnable matchup like Fox and Falco into at least a draw if the Fox/Falco simply does nothing and also avoids him, or possibly a win if they try to approach him at the ledge much like they would win if he were to try to approach them on the stage.

In this way, no character can actually beat him including Fox/Falco. Falco on the other hand does get beaten by a Fox.

I agree that the argument of perfect play is meaningless, but if you're going to describe something I've said as a bunch of crap, I'm going to defend my point.

Samus... has an advantage over the likes of... Sheik.

?

 

[DaemonFang]

i think link should be high tier. even though he's pretty hard to master, once u do, its pretty nifty. like i think his back and neutral air are the most prioritized moves in the game...also his moveset gives u like all round great protection. Aniki and Germ are living proof that link can pwn.

 

[metaXzero]

^.........I'm didn't just read that. I DIDN'T JUST READ THAT! Some1 else take this. I'm tired

 

[Grunt]

i think link should be high tier. even though he's pretty hard to master, once u do, its pretty nifty. like i think his back and neutral air are the most prioritized moves in the game...also his moveset gives u like all round great protection. Aniki and Germ are living proof that link can pwn.

Ok I'll take it.

AHEM!

You're a n00b.

 

[Pink Reaper]

?

Something HugS randomly said, dont look at me >_>

 

[Winston]

Oh well in that case, Marth really isn't THAT good of a character, its just that M2K plays him(her? Jury's still out)

And I love how you say Samus doesn't do well against Fox, are you serious? She goes even with the furry, and has an advantage over the likes of Falco and Sheik. Samus is one of the better characters out there, she has great range, godly recovery, good(albeit not the best) projectile game, good edge guarding, the best CC in the game. If anything the character who gets too much attention is Falcon, fool gets ***** by soooo many characters.

Way to straw-man my point...

Marth is a f***ing good character, but do you see everyone agreeing that he's the best on tourney results alone? Nope. Most consider Fox better, and some consider sheik better also.

Same token. Samus is a good character, sure, but that doesn't necessarily mean she has a place in the top 10.

All I was saying was that players like HugS make people biased in favor of samus in terms of how good she is, AS DOES M2K FOR MARTH.

Listing a bunch of good attributes for samus doesn't prove anything either. Any character who's in contention to be up there has at least that many if not more good attributes.

Like I said, I didn't claim that I know for sure that Samus isn't one of the top 10.

Merely pointing out that there's historical bias in favor of samus.

 

[Pink Reaper]

There's historical bias in alot of characters. If I say Falco doesn't even deserve high tier people would bring up shiz, if I say Falcon's not that good people would bring up SS(i live on the west coast, sorry scar <3) We have to look at what the evidence points at and right now evidence points at Samus being an upper tier character.

Edit: Im still waiting for my frame perfect Cactar Vs Magus match. I want to see it happen.

 

[Winston]

There's historical bias in alot of characters. If I say Falco doesn't even deserve high tier people would bring up shiz, if I say Falcon's not that good people would bring up SS(i live on the west coast, sorry scar <3) We have to look at what the evidence points at and right now evidence points at Samus being an upper tier character.

Edit: Im still waiting for my frame perfect Cactar Vs Magus match. I want to see it happen.

And I would say that to those people who bring up shiz or ss also.

Tier lists should mostly be based off of matchups at or near the highest level of human play. I just can't see Samus being even with Fox. I can see her as even with Falco, but I think she definitely doesn't have the advantage against a falco that's patient enough. vs Marth is bad, Falcon is bad, Sheik might be even.

Also, frame perfect matches sound like they'd be really, really boring to watch. ><

As well as non-terminating.

Frame perfect play apparently reduces melee to tic-tac-toe, if you choose the right character...

 

[Pink Reaper]

And I would say that to those people who bring up shiz or ss also.

Tier lists should mostly be based off of matchups at or near the highest level of human play. I just can't see Samus being even with Fox. I can see her as even with Falco, but I think she definitely doesn't have the advantage against a falco that's patient enough. vs Marth is bad, Falcon is bad, Sheik might be even.

The problem is the same can be said about Falcon. With proper CG's and spam, Fox and Falco easily win. With Marth and Sheik there's the fact that if Falcon ever gets grabbed its just chain throws and tech chases till he's dead. He can go pretty even with Peach(I believe he actually has an advantage) and and has an advantage over Samus and the IC's but even some lower tier characters manage to beat him pretty well like the Mario's(all three of them) and DK(and maybe even Ganon although I know very little about that match up, Magus? are you still there, this ones for you)

Also, frame perfect matches sound like they'd be really, really boring to watch. ><

As well as non-terminating.

Frame perfect play apparently reduces melee to tic-tac-toe, if you choose the right character...

Nope, its just "Pick Fox, laser, Ledge stall for 8 minutes)

 

[Magus420]

It'd pretty much just be a whole lot of nothing interesting happening for about 8 minutes.

Sounds a lot like Brawl xD

CF has a pretty good matchup against Ganon imo.

 

[Cactuar]

Why would I need to search to find your post in a thread I've been posting in and been subscribed to for quite some time?

Lasers have hitlag and shield knockback. You can lightshield them and multiple SDI towards the edge to reach it rather quickly and then fastfall.

If there's a rule that explicitly states that you need to have more damage on your opponent before you are allowed to reposition yourself to the edge then yeah he's trash, but since there isn't one that I'm aware of he can turn any unwinnable matchup like Fox and Falco into at least a draw if the Fox/Falco simply does nothing and also avoids him, or possibly a win if they try to approach him at the ledge much like they would win if he were to try to approach them on the stage.

In this way, no character can actually beat him including Fox/Falco. Falco on the other hand does get beaten by a Fox.

I agree that the argument of perfect play is meaningless, but if you're going to describe something I've said as a bunch of crap, I'm going to defend my point.

?

I feel like putting yourself in shield is the main disadvantageous thing to do there. I wouldn't be doing a standing laser, I would be doing full dash shdls towards you. If you light shield, given it being a frame perfect reaction, I would no longer be lasering and would shift to straight running at you. If you powershielded, you would be stuck in shield, giving you no out other than light shielding? The frame perfect Fox would not be using a whole bunch of useless lasers for you to eat till you reach the ledge. Just speculation, you do have significant AR experience over me.

A draw is not a win. Bowser would not be at the top of the tier list purely because he can cause himself to not win or lose to any character. Draws would in fact lead to rules adapting to prevent a player from doing exactly that, and, in the end, ruin your strategy. Saying Bowser should be at the top of the useless tier list that we are discussing due to him being able to "not lose, but also not win", is flawed.

It'd pretty much just be a whole lot of nothing interesting happening for about 8 minutes.

Sounds a lot like Brawl xD

CF has a pretty good matchup against Ganon imo.

I agree, frame perfect matches would be... tiring and uneventful. Glad to see your dislike for brawl though :D

 

[Scar]

Tier List Talk:

Sheik is the best character in the game IMO.

Falcon gets ***** by A LOT of characters but the fact that one hit can combo basically any char. to death is too much power to ignore.

Samus is extremely overrated.

<3 Pink Reaper anyways.

Perfect Control Talk:

Magus, if no character can beat Bowser b/c he can ledgestall everyone, EVERY character's optimal strat would theoretically be to sit and watch him ledgestall. True, Bowser cannot be beaten, but that does not at all make him God tier.

If the true optimal strat for Bowser is to never approach, then he will always get a draw in every match while other characters would actually be fighting and either winning or losing. Unless that's Bowser's ultimate fate his strat is going to have to change.

Theoretically any character who can get a first hit on him would do so and then run away and maybe they can and maybe they can't, but until Bowser gets a % lead he cannot use the stall and therefore cannot win.

Of course once Bowser gets % lead at the ledge we can assume he has won the match, but unless he can do that he's only as good as any other character.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Theoretically, wouldn't Peach be god tier in frame perfect melee? With FC'd power shields she couldn't be hit by anything ever.

 

[otg]

The problem is the same can be said about Falcon. With proper CG's and spam, Fox and Falco easily win. With Marth and Sheik there's the fact that if Falcon ever gets grabbed its just chain throws and tech chases till he's dead. He can go pretty even with Peach(I believe he actually has an advantage) and and has an advantage over Samus and the IC's but even some lower tier characters manage to beat him pretty well like the Mario's(all three of them) and DK(and maybe even Ganon although I know very little about that match up, Magus? are you still there, this ones for you)



Nope, its just "Pick Fox, laser, Ledge stall for 8 minutes)

I dunno man, Cap Fal vs. Marth is pretty even IMO. Both of them can combo the BALLS out of each other, and Falcon can essentially 0-death Marth by getting a grab and comboing nairs/uairs and throws into the Knee. Spacies and Sheik are his worst fights, but even there if Falcon avoids getting grabbed and is able to maintain control he *****.

 

[Winston]

Theoretically, wouldn't Peach be god tier in frame perfect melee? With FC'd power shields she couldn't be hit by anything ever.

Shine trumps that because Melee powershielding has shieldstun. The perfect control thing vs fox's lasers only works because that's projectile powershielding.

 

[Magus420]

The way I look at it is Boswer would be more of a tournament threat than _____ character that isn't those 3 who is 100% guaranteed to lose and always allow a Fox/Falco to advance, by being the only character besides another Fox that is capable of eliminating a Fox, and will always eliminate any character he faces whether it be win or draw, while Falco beats more of the trash 23 but is guaranteed to allow any Foxes to advance. I can see Falco being above him for straight up winning more matchups (albeit against very insignificant characters), and I shouldn't have grouped Bowser with Fox, but I definitely say he's above the rest of the cast for being able to eliminate all characters including the best and by far the most important one (Fox).

Then again if you're not choosing Fox it's not perfect play as it's the best choice under all circumstances anyway, so I'd say it's more like:

The Only Tier That Matters
Fox

Irrelevant Tier
Everyone else

 

[Cactuar]

I dunno man, Cap Fal vs. Marth is pretty even IMO. Both of them can combo the BALLS out of each other, and Falcon can essentially 0-death Marth by getting a grab and comboing nairs/uairs and throws into the Knee. Spacies and Sheik are his worst fights, but even there if Falcon avoids getting grabbed and is able to maintain control he *****.

Lol. Scar hates my Marth.

@ Magus: Good talk. Fox wins. ^^

 

[Laijin]

The Only Tier That Matters
Fox

Irrelevant Tier
Everyone else

This is the only post in the entire thread that makes the most sense.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Shine trumps that because Melee powershielding has shieldstun. The perfect control thing vs fox's lasers only works because that's projectile powershielding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdUeaC7M3oo

1:29, Peach is FC Power shielding everything Falco does to her, including frame perfect shines aerials.

 

[Eggm]

Melee power shielding has no stun, it does however have knock back.

 

[Winston]

This is the only post in the entire thread that makes the most sense.

Well in general, there's only gonna be one post per thread that makes the most sense...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdUeaC7M3oo

1:29, Peach is FC Power shielding everything Falco does to her, including frame perfect shines aerials.

In frame perfect play the Falco/Fox wouldn't be shine-aerialing; he'd be multishining. Which is a LOT faster than shine-aerialing.