Social General Ice Climber Chat

[KirbyKaze]

@KirbyKaze: Alright, sounds reasonable. I'd say it's 60-40 in PAL. Might be because of the nerfs + the fact that wobbling is like never banned in Europe, though

I actually think ICs, Peach, and Puff are MUs where the uair nerf is noticeable. That high BKB enables her to do solid combos at low percents if she gets them into the right position. Because it's a solid hit, there's no room for them to be good with SDI (like vs her u-tilt, for instance).

I think it's probably a 40-60 MU for Sheik with what you've described. None of Sheik's core gameplay (space aerials, get them in the air and juggle them until they die, stall when necessary, shoot them with needles when necessary, etc) has really been altered in PAL (in this MU specifically; you can't grab ICs most of the time anyway) but all the minor little nerfs and ICs having wobbling probably makes a difference of a few points.

 

[Binx]

after dealing so well with foxes this weekend i think fox is more manageable than falco as long as we defend ourselves with the right moves

both are very hard tho

I find the opposite to be true =D I have a much rougher time vs good foxes because of the way shine connects than Falco, vs Falco you can negate a lot of his laser game with good desynch tricks and his horizontal movement in the air is much weaker than fox's during a short hop and his full hop is easier to get under and pressure as well.

I also find Falco easier to chainthrow but maybe thats just me. Both edgeguard ICs really well so it feels about the same there. Falco is easier to kill off stage with things like nairs since his up b doesnt have a hitbox.

I find Fox's shines and shield pressure much harder to deal with, although I have been practicing my fairs in the mu and its helping a lot vs things like his nair spacing game, I've also been better about spacing grabs and getting them when fox misses shines and things. MU still feels impossible when I play really high calibur Fox's but maybe thats just because I have so much more experience in the Falco MU.

 

[Tomber]

I feel pretty much the same way about fighting Fox and Falco. Against low/mid level players the spacies match up is pretty easy for ICs because they punish really hard even at low/mid level of play while the Fox or Falco player might not know how to stop them. Fox/Falco can't grab as they used to, the L-cancel timing is different, and Falco can't shoot random lasers in neutral position without any risk of getting gimmicked by ICs who can just attack through them.

At higher level of play, people start to abuse ICs limited OoS options by using a lot of shine or shine->aerial, pressuring them to roll as shield grab is now a much more risky move. At this point the match up is pretty much a glass cannon vs. glass cannon match up where both characters can get a KO off a single hit (shine or grab). While ICs might be able to to get the hardest punishes, Fox can throw out attacks at lower risk than Falco and ICs. Falco has his projectile game, but still has to be careful while throwing out his lasers. And while he might be able to punish about just as hard as Fox, he also lacks ground speed making it harder for him to punish openings compared to Fox. If you can shut down Falco's laser game, or at least get around it, the match up becomes more even'ish (I still think power shielding lasers is a great tool for ICs in this match up to make the Falco think twice before throwing them out). However, Falco's platform game is really solid against ICs, probably better than Fox's. Once Falco has ICs on a platform, there isn't really a lot ICs can do, which is one of the reasons why I think Falco can do better than Fox on BF/YS while Fox does better on PS/FD/DL. At least in PAL.

TL;DR, ICs/Fox/Falco hit each other really hard in the ICs vs. Fox/Falco match up. Fox can throw out moves at a lower risk giving him an edge in the match up IMO. Falco's laser can be hard to get around but it's manageable. ICs lose both match ups.

With that said, I love fighting spacies. ICs can get away with so much silly stuff and still get a KO once they get in. And if you get hit yourself, you lose a stock. A lot of ICs match ups are like that, which I like. Makes you think you can beat everyone if you play on point while you can still lose to lower leveled players if you're not playing your best.

Reminds me of a set of friendlies I had with Overtriforce and Armada. Over 3-stocks Armada, than I 3-stocks Over, just to get 3-stocked by Armada in the following match. Just another day.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

people blizzard way too much against spacies
ftilt is god-like against fox
fsmash is god-like against falco

 

[DerfMidWest]

I like to throw nana at things.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Throwing Nana at things shouldn't work, but yay for no one learning to counter it

 

[choknater]

It works because popo can counterattack.

Regarding fox: the reason fox can be manageable is that we have the ability to protect ourselves with moves like fair, sh bair, ftilt, utilt, blizzard, uair, etc. As long as we keep our front and above protected, fox has a chance of running into these moves. He has to think twice about his approaches because they're not free.

Falco, on the other hand, can force us into defense with his lasers. We have to fight for positioning and find spots where lasering is a stupid idea, and make him choose other moves.

For some reason I have not been shine spiked by fox in a long time. I think because I deal with mid stage shines very well and do my best to protect/save nana after the shine. Falco's shine, on the other hand, is a launcher and leads to ultimate punishment. On the other hand, falco can't run up and shine like fox can.

I think its a good exercise to compare the two as they are both very hard and we can't fall into bad habits when switching between matchups. This weekend I only found fox more manageable because I was playing the matchup well. But I totally forgot the falco matchup, and I dropped a game vs hmw and lost badly to ppu's falco.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

@Andre: Glancing over the names you played, I suspect the way you feel might just have a lot to do with the people you played. Phil is really bad against ICs. I can't imagine ZF being particularly good against them; PPU is a better player in general than the space animals that you did beat.


I personally have little interest in comparing the two match-ups since I don't see myself learning anything from doing that.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It works because popo can counterattack.

Perhaps on FD, but most of the time nanapult leaves Nana in a very vulnerable position that if people reacted to offensively instead of defensively, would be a free KO for some characters.

There is no more danger of Popo interfering than there is whenever you choose to hit Nana.

 

[choknater]

fly u could be right

and yeah grim it is a high risk move

but sometimes a legit option to approach. there are not many clear ways for other characters to react to it and punish nana, especially if they are in a bad position to, like right in front of the blizzard

 

[Kyu Puff]

Perhaps on FD, but most of the time nanapult leaves Nana in a very vulnerable position that if people reacted to offensively instead of defensively, would be a free KO for some characters.

Could you give some examples (I'm not sure what react offensively means)? If the opponent is far enough away when you sh nanapult, they either have to jump over her, wait until it ends, or use a move that can go through blizzard (like a laser or missile). Popo can follow it up pretty quickly. It is sort of a gamble, and a lot of the time it won't lead into anything, but I've never had Nana die immediately after a nanapult before.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

Off the subject question*

But, what do you guys feel about this character? Can Melee ICs win national events? What are their toughest matchups to face in tournament? How long would it take a casual Melee player that's a mid-level player(Brawl) to learn this game at a high level?

The reason I ask this is because I'm thinking about playing Melee a little seriously, and I don't want to waste my time with ICs if they aren't worth it considering this game has been out for a decade and the metagame is extremely advanced.

 

[choknater]

Off the subject question*

But, what do you guys feel about this character? Can Melee ICs win national events? What are their toughest matchups to face in tournament? How long would it take a casual Melee player that's a mid-level player(Brawl) to learn this game at a high level?

The reason I ask this is because I'm thinking about playing Melee a little seriously, and I don't want to waste my time with ICs if they aren't worth it considering this game has been out for a decade and the metagame is extremely advanced.

what do i feel:
i love ic's

can melee ic's win national events:
we have a trend of getting 2nd and 3rd lol. once in a blue moon. we have the potential to change this though. it can be done.

toughest matchups:
peach by far. then fox, falcon, falco, marth. only if they know what they are doing. ganon is rare but this can be challenging too. samus and doc are rare and i think even with us. ic's are good vs two top tier characters: puff and sheik.

brawl to melee:
it'll be tough because you have to really understand what the other character wants to do, and this takes a lot of experience. ic's are not really a beginner character, but challenging to learn and rewarding to play. chudat had amazing fundamentals so his videos are one of the best ways to start learning

choose a main if you really enjoy the character. that's all i can say. ic's deserve their spot at B tier, but they fill a unique niche in melee that only belongs to them.

if you're starting out in melee, just play around with all the characters because they are all fun to play to some degree. you'll find what you like quickly this way, as opposed to asking

 

[Wobbles]

I think ICs can do it (though I'm less sure about me). They are very demanding in terms of precision and positioning (when fighting top tiers), and you MUST hit extremely hard to have a real shot, so you can't screw up there either. TBH, I think ICs would be winning nationals if I could just inject me+Fly's knowledge into somebody with better fundamentals.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Wobbles, if it means anything, I think you are the closest to winning majors with ICs. Your style just seems so much more fluid than Fly and Chu's; you are all quite equal at the moment, but I think you have more potential.

No offense to Fly and Chu, both very clever, technical players.

When I end up coming to ze Americaz, I'd love to chill with you and talk about ICs if you're keen <3

 

[Nintendude]

Chu still has the best basic neutral game by far imo. Just look at his sets vs Hbox and m2k from Zenith. Nothing but pure calculated spacing and precision. If one of us could learn to play like that but incorporate blizzard / ice block desynchs and the modern day grab game, we'd have a shot at taking nationals.

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah i agree with that. I can't judge wobbles or fly's recent play..but when i compared vids 4 months ago there was a rather substantial gap in skill between chu and the others.. chu just plays a far cleaner game. More reliance on good spacing and movement to make up for the lack of crazy grab techniques. But I wonder, is it really possible to incorporate all of that into top level IC play? or is it because chu doesn't have to focus on all the complex desynchs that he is able to devote more of his thinking to maintaining his spacing and having clean movement?

well, I guess theoretically you should be able to do both (unless it is the IC block desynchs themselves that are causing you to get into disadvantaged situations) but it definitely seems a daunting task. Marth seems a far simpler character, but I am never content even when I watch M2k's marth play because there are too many sloppy movements or poor decisions. And an ice climber player has so much more to worry about

 

[choknater]

chu would definitely be much better if his punishments were stronger

i learn a lot every time i watch him

crazy that he's always been playing the same way since i first saw him in 2004

 

[Melomaniacal]

Question.
What do I do about Fox approaching with grounded shines? I try having Nana blizzard, and the Fox will just dash dance around. I try ice blocks, and he just jumps over them or shields them. When he comes in with the shine, I can't seem to punish it, and if it hits he will almost always gimp either me or Nana. Advice?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Ftilt is the easiest and most reliable response you have. Fsmash and bair can also be good.

 

[Binx]

I like tippered jabs vs shines if I whiff I usually cover with a ftilt which works pretty well, actually even if it hits I often ftilt afterwards because im not usually in grab range.

VS max range Fox nair I like to fair in place, usually jumps right over the hitbox and spikes them into the ground, if they dont tech you can jab reset on reaction, if they tech towards you can dsmash, in place you can grab although I often get shined because I dont react quick enough, if they tech away then you can prolly wavedash grab or just move in and take some space.

 

[choknater]

i have been protecting myself with fair lately, with pretty good success

bair/ftilt are much faster tho

 

[Wobbles]

Yeah, when I watch Chu--and Trail somewhat--I get the feeling like my tower of skill is Jenga-fied, and there's lots of important pieces at the bottom still missing. My tower is higher though, because when it comes to intricacies in the ICs I know more about them than almost anybody. I typically hit like a truck and control momentum pretty well when I get ahold of it, and my SoPo--probably because I started off playing other characters--is super nimble and tricky. But my overall game is pretty sloppy :/

I know some of the mental habits and impulses I need to overcome to make them better. But it's hard.

 

[Tomber]

When speaking of fundamentals, while I agree that Chu's spacing and execution might be better compared to other ICs mains', I think it comes down to his mind set by which I mean his capacity to perform under pressure and make right decisions. Even if you are a smart player with great spacing and good technical knowledge and execution, your play will still fall apart if you can't perform when needed. Being consistent and being able to do what you want to do in every situation is the most fundamental aspect of competition and other kinds of performance IMO. As a musician I've seen many people fell apart on stage because they couldn't handle the pressure. Even the most technical and gifted students. The same goes for people under exams and competitive gaming.

When watching videos of players in tournament mode I see mistakes quite often. Everyone does. A player wanted to do something that might have been the optimal decision in the situation, but failed. Every high level player does mistakes like this, top level players to a lesser extent. Sometimes it isn't that big of a deal. The result might have been that you got a hit less in your combo or got hit yourself, but at top level of play even small mistakes can result in the loss of a stock especially in match ups involving Fox, Falco, or ICs. These are probably the most fragile characters is the game. They are also the characters with the most options in many situations with many high reward/ high risk options, and while these often might look optimal they could end up turing the tides to your opponent's favor if you fail. A good example of this is the Genesis 2 finals or most games with Armada vs. Mango. Mango could have dominated a lot of these games if just he had been a more consistent with his stuff. I think. Armada wins because he is really consistent at everything he does.

Chu goes for the simple, not optimized, stuff, but makes it work every time. Other ICs goes for more technically advanced stuff, but fail from time to time. Maybe because they can't handle the situation. Maybe because they haven't practiced enough.
If you want to be good at something then make sure you can perform when needed. Go for high risk decisions if you are sure it will work. Once ICs players stop making mistakes, they can start winning nationals.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Chu's clean, basic style is why he remains my favorite IC player to watch. But he could definitely punish a lot harder. :\ I guess finding that balance with a character like the Ice Climbers is really difficult.

 

[choknater]

yeah this last weekend i wanted to focus on fundamentals while under pressure, so i think i did really well

i took a game of shroomed's doc this which showed me it is possible for me to win. just gotta keep up the improvement!

i fell to stupid things like wavedashing in after he dsmashed my shield... didnt know it was that safe. well, i did know it, but my reaction was a stupid habit.

i got this next time!

 

[Wobbles]

Chok:

It's not safe, especially not if the d-smash is decayed. The problem is you have basically 1 or 2 frames to get your guaranteed grab punish.

So if YOU are off even a little, you just WD into another d-smash, or jab->d-smash.

 

[choknater]

hmmmm ok

yeah i probably missed that small window

i think for my own sake i will just not challenge it unless i have some extensive practice with the timing

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

I have been experimenting with pivot popo dash attack nana charge fsmash and it is somewhat safe if not predicted but very suseptable to cc tricks. it is actually very easy for me to do it consistantly even when im not practicing. Just pivot and hold forward and press and hold a after you see popos shoulder turn. I am not certain where this technique could be applied but i would like to hear top climbers response on its usefulness, last time i brought this desync up in this thread i think it was percieved as very hard but this is one of the desyncs i find easier. Also i would like to discuss popo bthrow nana fsmash to gimp falcon, its much faster and easier than reverse dthrow dair dsmash and seems to gimp at about 60%. I know pummel->charge fsmash uthrow works well but they have a chance to mash outand i am still learning to do that consistantly. the backthrow fsmash seems to be mush easier against falcon and maybe ganon and not useful on other chars i think.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

What's difficult about reverse dthrow dair dsmash? I literally just down throw, jump forward with nana and spam down on the c-stick.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'm stalking Grim.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Oh, Aero. You don't need to stalk me to get my attention you silly-billy <3

 

[Tomber]

What's difficult about reverse dthrow dair dsmash? I literally just down throw, jump forward with nana and spam down on the c-stick.

Most things you do in this game come down to simple or "easy" combinations of inputs, but that doesn't mean you should overcomplicate things. The principles behind hand offs are quite simple, but people mess these up all the time. People also happen to mess up during wobbling even though all they have to do is press one button.

It is pretty much a matter of risk/reward once again. Reverse d-throw dair d-smash does around 27% but is easier to screw up as there are more inputs. It is also slower, which makes it easier to react to, and it is escapable after the dair so your down smash might miss.

B-throw f-smash does around 21%. All you have to do is press right or left on the c-stick (the way you're not facing) once you've got the grab and the two moves will connect if you play against Falcon/Ganon. It is really fast and is inescapable once you've done your throw.

You can also compare it to up-throw reverse f-smash which does around 9-11% less.
Against Falcon and Ganon B-throw f-smash is pretty much just a better version of up-throw reverse f-smash as the reward is higher while the risk isn't. It works against other characters as well, but the timing is harder making the alternatives better in most situations. I use it quite often against Falcon/Ganon and sometimes against spacies as well as a few other characters.

I've been experimenting with the pivot Popo dash attack Nana f-smash as well, btw. I've found normal synced dash attach or f-smash to be better in most situations though as they cover about as much space and hit harder. It could be used as a kind of bait though as they might try to punish Popo's dash attack just to get hit by Nana's f-smash.

EDIT:

I know pummel->charge fsmash uthrow works well but they have a chance to mash outand i am still learning to do that consistantly.

Just in case you didn't know you can just hold down A + right/left on the stick after the grab and the pummel to charge the f-smash. It's is much easier than timing the smash input after the pummel.

For example you can do a dash grab -> press and hold down the A while still holding the direction you dashed to charge the smash. This works because grab desyncs Nana if you hold down a button in the grab animation.

 

[DerfMidWest]

When I do reverse dair stuff on the spacies I always make nana dash forwards first (because this seems to he the only way I can land it)
Can I do them without dashing if i input the jump soon enough?

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

@grim tuesday i only meant harder because it can be DI'ed out of
@tomber thank you for confirming that bthrow fsmash on falcon and ganon is legit, and also thank you for the tip but im almost used to pummel cstick+z to charge, but ill try your way
edit: i am having problems with your simpler way as expected cause im used to the cstick charge, but it does seem faster and easier It feels soo clutch tho
cstick smash is longer more complicated but it is nice to have your thumb on the c-stick after if you miss you can buffer wd away oos as that is one of if not the best oos options
pivot ftilt/jab nana DA is imo safer than both of the others but also harder
if you use pivot DA fsmash as a mixup it really has great shield pressure as you can just wait for them then release and it is a really easy desync that really punishes people for shield-grabbing or cc'ing your DA's

 

[Strong Badam]

I require extensive Fox vs. Ice Climbers friendlies/seriouslies/dollar matches this weekend, Jeremy.

 

[choknater]

fly boutta make dat money

 

[Vts]

I require extensive Fox vs. Ice Climbers friendlies/seriouslies/dollar matches this weekend, Jeremy.

lol, Lovec that new IC main giving you some trouble

I hear he is pretty crappy player and doesn't play the game that often.

 

[Tomber]

Fighting ICs can really hard if you're not used to the match up. Quite a few of our better players over here have lost to rather mediocre ICs players in tournament because they didn't know to approach them. Having to use a secondary to fight them doesn't make it any better either. Too bad the ICs MU is so horrible for DK. Nedech, our best DK player, is having trouble with it as well.

pivot ftilt/jab nana DA is imo safer than both of the others but also harder
if you use pivot DA fsmash as a mixup it really has great shield pressure as you can just wait for them then release and it is a really easy desync that really punishes people for shield-grabbing or cc'ing your DA's

Shield grabbing ICs in general is very risky, and you can't CC synced dash attack as far as I know.

Tricks like pivot dash attack f-smash might look pretty good on the paper, but there are plenty of better alternatives IMO. It might be a little safer, but it's still a rather big commitment just like f-smash and dash attack. You shouldn't really use it unless you get a rather big read, and even then it doesn't hit as hard as synced f-smash or dash attack. F-smash is a good KO move at higher procent and dash attack is a great combo starter at lower procent. At best both dash attack and f-smash hit with the pivot desync, which results in less damage then synced f-smash and doesn't combo into anything like dash attack. Shield pressure doesn't really matter that much in ICs' case as you should just grab them in most situations if you think they're going to sit in their shield and you have both of your climbers.

With that said I agree that it can be used in some situations as a mix up. However, I feel that instead of finding new decyncs and focus on implementing them in your game, many ICs player (including myself) should focus more on when you should grab and when you should smash etc. and how to bait your opponent into these.
I know and have found so many desyncs and other gimmicky combo set ups with ICs, but most of them I never get to use in a real match because my opponent wont let me. An ICs player should just pick a few of their favorite desyncs and learn to use these to perfection. Then you can add more if you think it's necessary later on.

Said in another way, ICs is already the hardest hitting character in the game. These is no need to find new ways to hit. Most of the high/top tier characters can improve their game a lot by optimizing their combos. ICs on the other hand should focus more than anything on how to get their openings and avoid getting hit.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

I have found good use of it on people that tend to shield my dash attack on reaction, and this is just a trick to condition them not to shield->shine oos my DA's. I often rely too much on DA(and get read for it) and i am working on ccing my dashes more often to get in those grabs/ smashes. I have a tourney on saturday that i believe will be streaming/recorded so ill make a post with my videos.
thank you very much for telling me about a charge after pummel, its much faster and easier and i think it will help me against falco's this weekend.