Social General Ice Climber Chat

[choknater]

yah i like battlefield as my favorite when fd isn't banned

against puff i like fod/ys just so she dies instantly

 

[iRobinhoood]

Ok I'm confusing the hell out of myself and everybody.

To clear things up(by the time I finish this I will have spell checked it 5 times for errors on terms lol), I am whiffing dthrow -> charged fsmash. Disregard any other post I made about whiffing.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

yah i like battlefield as my favorite when fd isn't banned

against puff i like fod/ys just so she dies instantly

the problem is she is right on top of you all the time and her priority can be a problem. I think the ICs are better on stages that provide more room for this particular matchup (dreamland excluded). Pokemon Stadium and FD are prob. their best stages against puff. They need room to move around. Battlefield is always legit for the climbers.

 

[Tomber]

@iRobinhood: Haha, fair enough then.

Figure out the different weights of every character and practice the timing. That, and what Kyu Puff said.

 

[iRobinhoood]

I like Pokemon Stadium. I dislike the transformations. Therefore I don't like playing there. FoD is g@y because people escaped my infinite's too quickly. Also, it's safe to say I'm better at the hand-off than wobbling.

 

[choknater]

oh yeah fd and stadium are probably better for puff

 

[DerfMidWest]

Hmm...
My favorite stages are Stadium and YS (and dreamland in many MUs)

 

[iRobinhoood]

I think I like Battlefield the best.

 

[Binx]

yoshis is my favorite stage in the game for some reason, although i believe its one of the worse neutral stages for problem mu's.

I really like poke, wish it didnt transform.

I hope in the next smash game they acknowledge competitive players a little bit and make some good neutral stages with nice interesting platforms and no randomness.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Unlikely, but i share that wish

 

[knightpraetor]

ICs are too hard. i want to use them as a secondary vs sheik..but i feel like i will fail to press side b fast enough to actually manage to recover or drop 3 chaingrabs and fail to kill sheik...

it makes it hard to decide..play peach vs sheik where i will play the matchup decently and not make obvious mistakes or play ICs and get gimped once from doing something stupid and then drop chaingrabs.

Though Fly amanita managed to drop quite a few chaingrabs on KK and still won....so hard to decide what to do.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Looking at ICs as if CGs are super important is the wrong attitude to have when you are learning the character

 

[iRobinhoood]

CGs are just an added bonus = D

 

[DerfMidWest]

Yoooo i forgot, I got 13th at a small tourney I was at last saturday ^^

 

[knightpraetor]

so i remember that in KK's match vs fly amanita that wobbles said that dthrow dsmash chaingrab only works if the dsmash is decayed. How decayed does it need to be? I am worried to use it in tourney because of that. I know i practiced it a lot in training mode, but probably i dropped the first one and then just started getting it afterwards. In that situation I would probably just assume that I messed up the first time rather than think that the dsmash wasn't decayed enough.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

As long as dsmash isn't 100% fresh, it will work.

 

[knightpraetor]

so as long as you have used dsmash once in your last ten moves? cause that is really unlikely.

 

[Nintendude]

Don't bother with d-throw d-smash and just do d-throw d-tilt instead. There's no risk of screwing it up and the damage difference is minimal, which doesn't really matter since it's a legit chaingrab anyway.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Thats a cg? Lol. Had no idea. Is timing the same?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

The timing on dthrow -> dtilt is really easy. It's what I generally do against Sheik and Roy.

 

[knightpraetor]

ok, i will learn that then. if you are solo popo dthrow chaingrabbing sheik, is it possible to dash forward in anticipation of rather than reacting to the di away and then still dash back and catch neutral DI?

I couldn't help noticing fly dropped those as well and appeared to anticipate DI away in order to catch it, which is what i currently do as well, but it would be nice to have a little better coverage

 

[choknater]

wish me luck today at concord

or as a catholic perhaps i should say

'pray for me'


hahahhahahahahahah

 

[Grim Tuesday]

it'd seem kind-of mean to pray for someone to someone I only know over the internet to win a video game competition

instead of praying for children in third-world countries or some ****

but what do i know

 

[choknater]

yah you could be right

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

@knight r you talking about the regrab or trying to dtilt after dthrow with sopo, cause you could dash forward and cc your dash into a pivot grab but if you are trying to dtilt shiek after dthrow with sopo just dont bother cause you could get a regrab or smash instead if they miss di. if they di up and away dont chase them or you might get slapped, if they di away then you should do a traditional techchase(upsmash ftw).
thats just my muddled

 

[Fly_Amanita]

ok, i will learn that then. if you are solo popo dthrow chaingrabbing sheik, is it possible to dash forward in anticipation of rather than reacting to the di away and then still dash back and catch neutral DI?

I couldn't help noticing fly dropped those as well and appeared to anticipate DI away in order to catch it, which is what i currently do as well, but it would be nice to have a little better coverage

You can probably dash forward and then dash back on reaction if you want to do that. I don't think it'd be any easier, though.

My difficulty with the dthrow CG is weird and it's not an issue I feel like I should have, but I've never been able to fully get rid of it; you have more than enough time to just react to how the Sheik DIs and grab again. Sometimes, for whatever reason, I don't do the proper grab after looking at how the opponent DIs. I don't know why. My best guess is that I accidentally condition myself to do one option and have a hard time breaking that quickly.

 

[choknater]

i got 5th today, did VERY well vs fox, but not so much vs falco

beat phil (fox) 2-0
lost to shroomed (doc) 1-2
beat zeldafreak (fox) 2-1
beat HMW (falco/fox) 2-1
lost to pewpewyou (falco) 1-2

i was kinda lost today against falco rusty rusty

5th is pretty good tho

 

[knightpraetor]

you're probably just not confident that you can react to the DI away. I feel like the DI away is on the borderline of human reaction time. as in sometimes I can get it on reaction but other times I just react too slowly. But maybe i'm just bad at reading the DI fast enough. would be interesting to figure out how many frames ICs actually have to react before they need to start moving to catch DI away.

 

[Kyu Puff]

I think there is plenty of time no matter how they DI. Usually when I mess up it's because I commit to one option way before I need to (or condition myself like Fly said).

 

[KirbyKaze]

After playing Fly extensively at Rule 6 and in tournament I think ICs > Sheik about 55-45. Sheik can death combo them to keep pace in the MU but it takes more finesse and setup than d-throw d-tilt CG to jab blizzard f-smash for 80%+ EZ PZ. Her air pokes are good but they're basically just stage control tools or maybe you hit Nana off for an assassination attempt. They gain some combo potential at medium percents, and set up edgeguards at high percents (and edgeguarding ICs is easy, despite what you may draw from my set at TBH2).

I feel Sheik is strongest pushing them to the edge. She's not bad vs the blizzard. It has less range than I thought; she can actually just jump around it and go in with nair (unless ICs call this and protect themselves with not shield). So yeah. Sheik is fine vs them, CGs to death are lame, f-tilt > freestyle death combo ft. uair is also lame.

I think Sheik's MU difficulties are exaggerated. She's amazing and she has answers to everything. I don't see her even having a 40-60 MU at this point. I think most Sheiks are terrible though so this makes her MUs look bad when you beat random Sheik 589 badly because she f-tilts a shield point blank and gets CGed to death for it but... if they emphasize her range advantage and ludicrous juggle game then she's got a good bid for victory.

ICs CG should never kill her unless you started somewhere weird. Stay in the middle, accept being regrabbed to 60, and then force them to finish centerstage (which you'll always survive if you hold up, unless they get a ghetto regrab with d-throw dair or something which can legitimately make it 0-death).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Hand-off is a more legitimate ghetto regrab.
And all ICs suck, this is fact but meh. Cool to hear your take on it

 

[KirbyKaze]

Hand-off is a more legitimate ghetto regrab.
And all ICs suck, this is fact but meh. Cool to hear your take on it

Handoff centerstage is 100% luck so I detest it. But after looking at it a bit more, I agree. Giving the combo to luck is probably better than obvious and easily escaped regrab combo. If you hit the follow on b-throw or u-throw then it's probably like 8-15% worse than consolidating with the f-smash and it gives a 50% chance of auto-killing her on some levels so that's kind of cool.

And yeah most ICs might suck but they're a weird character and hit like trucks so they probably beat sucky Sheik easily because weirdness ***** at low level play and so does automatic death combos that you can memorize.

I think Sheik gets the tools to deal with everything as her pilot gets better because she's so versatile minus her percents restrictions and dependency on grab to beat shield and crouch. But those are small issues since her grab is huge and leads to everything. She's well rounded with enormous range and deals tons of damage and her entire moveset can start combos. Broken character. Or rather, would be broken character but then Falco and Fox exist.

 

[Tomber]

Do you think Wobbling is a big deal in the match up? Sheik is one of the few characters Sopo can easily keep in a chain grab for quite some time without much trouble, so a grab should alway result in a KO with wobbling allowed even if the climbers are split up. From my experience the (PAL) Sheik vs. wobbling ICs match up is worse than 45:55.


Speaking of Sheik, do anyone know if her PAL down-throw is a legit chain grab on IC if you DI away? Overtriforce did this a lot against me last time we played and I wasn't sure how to escape it. Jumping out of it didn't seem to work.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Wobbling probably makes it a bit harder because normally you can try to survive the first CG but this is obviously not possible. That said, they combo her legitimately inescapably to like 80%+ on almost any non-FoD level so it's not like their punishment power has increased exponentially. Instead of needing to make a good play post-combo, they have to tap rhythmically and I die outright. Cool. But fundamentally not too different; it's just a better throw.

That said, while it is aggravating to die for one mistake with no interaction available to save me, it also doesn't infringe on what Sheik can do so part of me doesn't care. I mean, I can still juggle them to death and I can still edgeguard them super duper easily so I can still compete with KO power. I can still space my aerials... I can still launch them with my f-tilt. There's just a slightly bigger penalty for messing up. I'd need to experiment with how the resync works for setting up a wobbles vs the standard CG (when Nana is trying to rejoin Popo and Popo has a grab on Sheik) before drawing conclusions though.

*shrug*

Also, bear in mind Sheik's uair is massively nerfed in PAL and I think it's one of her best moves in the MU for keeping them in the air, apart, and comboing them to death. The high knockback is so valuable at low percents. Tilts are woefully DIable and ICs don't get put in tumble for a while so there is a premium on heavy-hitting combo moves. Also, Popo is an actual character vs Sheik in PAL (well, more than he is in NTSC anyway) because he can't be throw KOed super easily so his shield WD bullcrap gets empowered whereas in NTSC I can get rid of him easily enough most of the time without taking damage. Not being able to kill efficiently does matter when Popo has a 0-60 CG that leads to another move; Sheik can be hurt by him very badly if she gets hit by the wrong thing. The longer the stock takes to kill, the more opportunities Popo has to hit her with 'the wrong thing'.

 

[choknater]

i agree on sheik 55-45

 

[knightpraetor]

"That said, while it is aggravating to die for one mistake with no interaction available to save me, it also doesn't infringe on what Sheik can do so part of me doesn't care. I mean, I can still juggle them to death and I can still edgeguard them super duper easily so I can still compete with KO power. I can still space my aerials... I can still launch them with my f-tilt. There's just a slightly bigger penalty for messing up. I'd need to experiment with how the resync works for setting up a wobbles vs the standard CG (when Nana is trying to rejoin Popo and Popo has a grab on Sheik) before drawing conclusions though."

how do you deal with low percent though? I feel like you are pidgeonholed into too few options at low percent unless you needle camp platforms or something

 

[Tomber]

@KirbyKaze: Alright, sounds reasonable. I'd say it's 60-40 in PAL. Might be because of the nerfs + the fact that wobbling is like never banned in Europe, though

And to put that into perspective, here is my view on ICs' match ups (in PAL):

Peach: 35 - 65
Fox: 40-60
Falco: 45-55
Marth: 50-50 or slightly in Marth's favor
Samus: 50-50 or slightly in Samus' favor
Falcon/Ganon: 50-50
Luigi/Doc: 50-50 or slightly in ICs' favor
Jigglypuff: 55-45
Sheik: 60-40
ICs>the rest

I'd need to experiment with how the resync works for setting up a wobbles vs the standard CG (when Nana is trying to rejoin Popo and Popo has a grab on Sheik) before drawing conclusions though.

Basically, if you DI away on the down-throw, ICs can't set up wobbling right away after the regrab. If you DI up they can wobble immediately after the regrab. When standing together, like after a shield grab or jab->grab, ICs can start an infinite as quickly as Popo can get his first headbutt to connect after a grab.
Down-throw as well as down-throw down-smash/tilt variations should work no matter how you DI.

 

[choknater]

after dealing so well with foxes this weekend i think fox is more manageable than falco as long as we defend ourselves with the right moves

both are very hard tho

 

[Kyu Puff]

Basically, if you DI away on the down-throw, ICs can't set up wobbling right away after the regrab.

Why ?

 

[Tomber]

If they DI away you have to a dash grab to get the regrab. While Popo gets the grab, Nana will slide through the opponent in her grabbing animation which will cause her f-tilt/d-tilt to miss/ go too far to hit the opponent if you try to wobble right after the grab, so you have to wait a little to get Nana back in position. You can JC the grab to reduce the waiting time, but you still have to wait which is risky.