Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Tomber]

There were many times where you could of knocked Armada out of his float by just full hop ice blocking his ***.

Yeah, I realized that too when I rewatched the matches, haha.


@Choknater
I agree with much of what you said. I'm just still learning the match up and have yet to implement a lot of the stuff I think I should be in the match up. However, I'm not sure that Peach using more dair and tunips is better in this match up. You have to be grounded as Peach to get a turnip, which you don't really want to be against ICs. Yes, he can get one after he has knocked you away, but at this point there is better things to do like killing Nana. Keep in mind that Armada has played against Smasher89 a lot. This might have made him realize that ICs can work around turnips very well (you mentioned his video). Against Sopo turnips can be really good, however, and you can see him getting them at this point in my matches.
To use dair on ICs' shield you have to float low (I guess) which is risky. Dunno. He never used it against me. I'll try to use more nair perhaps some side-B. I think Peach can fair ICs out of these moves, but maybe they could work from time to another.

I don't really think that his strategy is suboptimal. As far as I know he has yet to lose against an ICs player, but maybe that is because he is pretty good.

 

[Armada]

choknater: Haven't worked on the MU for a very long time. Basically cause I never play with Smasher89 anymore cause he has a long break.

But yeah no one from the USA have taking a game against my Peach so far. But I will try those things you did mention next time (I do use turnips in some situations do but will try with more fairs exc).

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

2012 - The year Trail gets creepy.



Edit: what am i doing in the ic subforum...

way to ruin a beautiful moment, btw i **** you for free in this game, real talk.

 

[Wobbles]

I've almost beaten Armada :D Unfortunately on those last stocks, even when I've got Nana with me and it's CHAINGRAB TIME, he always gets the critical hit and I lose big momentum. He also wiggles out of stuff like a monster. I'm more efficient at my CGs and he's probably better too so I really wanna play him. And I may yet get to do that if I can go to FC.

 

[Tomber]

Yeah, I've got him down to 1 stock high procentage too. Only once though, hah (the second link I posted).

Btw, nice commentary at the Big House, Wobbles. I really enjoyed it.

 

[Binx]

I really like your analysis side of the game, but I think at this point anyone who is watching competitive melee doesnt really need as much play by play as you currently do.

I would suggest explaining the goals of each character and just compliment the success in general, or if they make a mistake try to explain WHY they made the mistake, either due to difficult tech restriction, big stage nerves, the other person outguessing or out reacting them.

Other than that if you run out of meaningful things to say then yea the play by play is the way to go.

I've noticed some definite improvement in your commentating so keep it up.

But on a more selfish note, you need to play MOAR! I need more techs to steal and I need more high quality vids to watch so I can learn what I should be doing without spending dozens of hours figuring it out for myself( which is also really slow because the skill in my area just simply isn't up to yours )

 

[john!]

Chokonater, I would like to apologize for **** talking you so much . After meeting Fly and Nintendude and discovering that both are humble/up standing young men. I've decided that I will be turning a new leaf concerning my ice climber brethren. From now on I will be nice to you guys . Come here, allow me to hug you.

i don't know who you are, but please get off trail's computer.

 

[choknater]

Yeah, I realized that too when I rewatched the matches, haha.


@Choknater
I agree with much of what you said. I'm just still learning the match up and have yet to implement a lot of the stuff I think I should be in the match up. However, I'm not sure that Peach using more dair and tunips is better in this match up. You have to be grounded as Peach to get a turnip, which you don't really want to be against ICs. Yes, he can get one after he has knocked you away, but at this point there is better things to do like killing Nana. Keep in mind that Armada has played against Smasher89 a lot. This might have made him realize that ICs can work around turnips very well (you mentioned his video). Against Sopo turnips can be really good, however, and you can see him getting them at this point in my matches.
To use dair on ICs' shield you have to float low (I guess) which is risky. Dunno. He never used it against me. I'll try to use more nair perhaps some side-B. I think Peach can fair ICs out of these moves, but maybe they could work from time to another.

I don't really think that his strategy is suboptimal. As far as I know he has yet to lose against an ICs player, but maybe that is because he is pretty good.

well i don't think ic's deal with turnips "very well." i think "very well" belongs to puff, ylink, falcon, fox, sheik... basically characters who can respond with many different counter attacks or angles. ic's, on the other hand, are forced into very limited defensive options when a projectile is thrown at them. we want to stay grounded, so the best option is probably to catch them. when we catch a turnip we lose the threat of grab and can only throw it back to prevent her from getting in our face

floating low is not so risky once you consider that there are 11 frames of lag in our wavedash before we can even start a move. so unless she is foolishly floating within our fsmash range, her low float and dairs can still prevent ic's wavedash forward. this is just another way for her to push us into the corner, which is pretty much her whole game plan.

i know that armada doesn't lose to us, but what i mean by suboptimal is that i can see a few ways where he can dominate ic's harder than he already does. what he does works, because it's simple and reduced to a core strategy that exploits our weaknesses. but with some more fine tuning, it seems like he can get very easy 3 and 4-stocks


at this point, though, maybe it is not really necessary, since he already doesn't lose in the matchup

 

[Wobbles]

Binx: some of that play-by-play is actually intended for people who have the stream open in another tab while doing something else on their computer. That's why I tend to go back and forth, so that I can lay down knowledge during slightly less intense parts, give relevant info changes constantly so whenever somebody dips into a stream they have it ASAP.

Also, sometimes I would end up describing something a minute after it happened and.

Much of this can be solved by just being a better speaker though. So I plan to keep improving Thanks for the feedback, I will try and think about how to balance everything more PERFECTLY, so I can be THE BEST. FOREVER.

If I can't be the best @ the game I might as well be the best commentator ;P But freal though if I can make it to APEX I'll be entering it.

 

[choknater]

wobbles i'm rooting for you man.

i was hyped for trail/fly/nintendude's performance in bracket but i want to see you make it far too

wish i could travel more!!!

 

[DerfMidWest]

If peach hits you with a turnip, nana can catch it.
Its funny when nana catches stitch faces.

 

[Smasher89]

When ICs has the turnip it´s one of the situation where peach is the weakest in, she has to get hit or catch that turnip, for puff it leads to rest so it´s obviously the best choice there, where ICs still has some decent options that is actually a good position for ICs to be in almost any position on the stage.

Just realized that the turniphitboxthing(popo/nana alternating turnips in front of them) might be more useful the I earlier suspected (walling on top of a platform anyone?)

Wobbles- about commentating: I watch alot of starcraft 2 streams, and something interesting they use between(and before) matches is statistics between the players, and in those cases even matchups and stages. I know that kind of info isnt so easily accesible in smash but it is a good thing to add if you can.
They also discuss stagestriking and predicts alot of the moves the players will do in that situation, and explains why they think they strike that way.
They also discuss maps and how different gimmics can work better or worse on them.


Something I would like you all to notice is how much AR is using float. That should be exploitable since it takes time and setup for getting a position where he can try spacing for that fair.
Some data on this can be worth it´s frames in gold(for a small real step forward).

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yeah FH fair should be able to hit her out of it if you get a good read/see her starting it up

 

[iRobinhoood]

Do you guys JC grab during chains or only on initial grabs? Or is depending? I seem to only JC grab as an initial grab but once in a handoff I like to just use Z. Also, when handing off with Nana, should my Popo be relatively close to Nana or should I move forward a slight bit?

 

[Kyu Puff]

When Nana throws, you have to move forwards a little bit (except against Donkey Kong, Bowser, Solo Popo, and possibly a few other characters). When Popo throws, it doesn't matter.

Also, I just use Z during handoff. You should just be walking forward slightly, not dashing, so it shouldn't make a difference. I usually just dash grab during chaingrabs. I think the grab hitbox for standing grab is a little higher, so there are some situations where you might want to JC grab if you think they'll try to jump out (like d-throw d-air against Marth or Peach).

 

[DerfMidWest]

I dont JC grab during dthrow->dair CGs. It doesnt seem to matter all that much.
Also should I bother L-canceling nana's dairs? I never have, and peef pointed out to me in the TBH2 stream that fly doesnt L-cancel his nana's dair either (vs renth, anyways)

 

[Kyu Puff]

I never l-cancel the d-air. I don't think it helps much.

 

[iRobinhoood]

Playing right now on twitch.tv/ticosmash will have videos later =]

 

[iRobinhoood]

How does ICs do against Ganon?

 

[Tomber]

It can be hard if you don't know the match up. Both characters can punish the other really hard. If the Ganon player reads your wave dashes forward he can take your stock quite fast. I think the match up used to be considered in Ganon's favor in NTSC, but I'm sure about how people look at it now. In PAL it isn't too bad.

floating low is not so risky once you consider that there are 11 frames of lag in our wavedash before we can even start a move. so unless she is foolishly floating within our fsmash range, her low float and dairs can still prevent ic's wavedash forward. this is just another way for her to push us into the corner, which is pretty much her whole game plan.

Alright, hadn't thoguht it could be used that way. But isn't it better for Peach to just react with fair when ICs wave dash forward? I remember Armada doing this against me.

I dont JC grab during dthrow->dair CGs. It doesnt seem to matter all that much.
Also should I bother L-canceling nana's dairs? I never have, and peef pointed out to me in the TBH2 stream that fly doesnt L-cancel his nana's dair either (vs renth, anyways)

If you L-cancel the dair you can blizzard with Nana or set up a wobble much faster.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj9oXj6bVGY&t=5m56s
Here I use dthrow sh dair into wobbling with a l-cancelled dair (I mess up my first attempt by making a full jump). This is a legit wobble set up on Fox/Falco/Peach and can work on others if they DI wrong.

 

[iRobinhoood]

Would anyone be interested in an Ice Climbers video critique thread?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'd rather not have more threads to subscribe to; this general IC chat isn't active enough to warrant more threads

imo

 

[iRobinhoood]

Oh ok no problem.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Hey I didn't mean to shoot you down aha, if other people are keen, fire away

 

[iRobinhoood]

Lol nah all good the reason behind it was because on some other character specific boards that don't have video critique threads also, gameplay posts don't often get seen.

Edit: But I'll post here and see how it goes.

Could someone explain how Fox broke out of this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=d7FrVpIoR8E#t=438s

 

[Cactuar]

way to ruin a beautiful moment, btw i **** you for free in this game, real talk.

Lol. I think the last time you played me, I was still a Marth main.

We need to play sometime.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

@robinhood he just mashed out, if headbutt was used before nana's blizzard he would not be able to mash out
i also dont think we need a video critique thread

 

[iRobinhoood]

Oh so your saying he mashed out because Popo didn't headbutt during the blizzard?

 

[Tomber]

He mashed out just before the first hitbox of blizzard connected. But yeah, if he had done a headbut during the start up frames of blizzard, Wes might not have escaped.

 

[DerfMidWest]

So according to SFAT, if you are human, and the ICs dont mess up, dthrow-sh dair CG is inescapable for spacies.
Thoughts?
Is there truth in that statement?
Or was he just salty because of Fly being a beast?

Note: he thinks ICs are his best MU and he knows the escape DI very well and so on.

 

[iRobinhoood]

I was thinking the same recently ^ but only for spacies. Also, I'm having a hard time short hopping with Nana on the dthrow dair chain. I still get it, but is it less effective if not short hopped?

 

[DerfMidWest]

I use tap jump for making nana sh.
Try doing that.

 

[john!]

i've never seen a space animal escape my dthrow -> dair chaingrab (unless i screw it up)

i short hop with nana right after i input the dthrow. this lets me input it without rushing and easily move my thumb to the c-stick for the dair. it also makes nana reset to neutral sooner, for a faster blizzard after the regrab.

 

[iRobinhoood]

I use tap jump for making nana sh.
Try doing that.

Could you explain tap jump? Or are you just saying just tap the X/Y more quickly?

Also, I'm having a really hard time with the handoff. Specifically Marth. WObbles mentioned in his thread that a good way to judge when to grab with Nana is when the green un-teched flash comes during Popos dthrow animation, which so far has worked for me for the most part.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Just keep practising different timings.

Tap jump is control stick jump. I use it for dthrow > dair (...I use it for everything lol)

 

[Kyu Puff]

Fox can escape the d-throw d-air very easily. Falco needs SDI to escape, but it's still possible.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Yes i know that they can, but SFAT was saying that if the IC is perfect, It requires frame perfect SDI for space animals to escape.
People normally escape via DI/SDI down+away -> buffer spotdodge

 

[Kyu Puff]

People normally escape with ASDI away + buffer spotdodge, which is hardly frame perfect (all it requires is holding the control stick away and the c-stick down). I'm pretty sure SFAT is wrong.

Also, in your last post you said "inescapable." If you can escape using SDI (which does not need to be frame perfect), it's escapable.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Notice he said "if you are human" you cant escape if the IC doesnt mess up.

 

[Nintendude]

btw, spacies tend to always buffer the same escape method. If they escape once, make note of HOW they escaped. Then next time if you want an easy continuation just wait for their escape, follow it, and grab. If they like to buffer roll away, this is a good way to get into handoff position quickly.

I still think SFAT is really wrong though. You can tell just from watching that his DI on the chaingrab was off.