Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Melomaniacal]

So, I'm struggling with what to do in the neutral position in most matchups. Against Falco I'm starting to get comfortable with using lasers to desynch and set things up, but in other matchups (unless I'm camping bairs or ice blocks) I'm at a loss. Should I be treating wavedashes as IC's dash dance?

 

[DerfMidWest]

Blizzard moar

 

[Melomaniacal]

Blizzard moar

Yeah, I end up resorting to a lot of wavedashing around and Nana blizzards, but my opponent rarely takes the bait. I often get punished for even trying to desynch, but when I do get the blizzard out I don't find myself getting much reward. Either my opponent simply doesn't come in, or gets around it with platforms/full hops/etc.

 

[DerfMidWest]

For the record: disregard most of what I post.

 

[choknater]

the wavedash back and forth thing is something chudat does a lot. his movement mixes in dash dances and stuff so it makes it very unpredictable and explosive

i am a little more reserved and i do blizzard more, but i use well-protected blizzards. i dont just throw in desynchs at any time cuz depending on your positioning, it can be quite easy to punish them.

 

[Tomber]

http://sv.twitch.tv/smashdenmark/b/334433084?t=62m0s

Recent game I had with Armada. Feel free to comment/ point out general stuff I should work on.
I made some stupid decisions (like my whole second stock) and stuff, but I think I played alright overall. We played a lot of friendlies and I got 2-3 stocked most of the time (only got him down to 1 stock high procent like once), but I think I'm starting to get an idea about how to play the match up. Need to pratice it a lot, though.

 

[DerfMidWest]

hey there, here is like 30 minutes of me getting wrecked by falco.
critique on ant part is much appreciated (I really need it ^^')
sorry the quality isnt amazing :/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nt-8n3gv4k
also feel free to mute it, there was no audio so i just threw in a random electrohouse mix

EDIT: nvm it got banned in all but 2 countries for the music... i'll reupload later without sound.

EDIT2: GOOD **** FLY ^^

 

[mexicanmax227]

MArth main here. VS. Ice Climbers. ALL I know is that Ive got range. Pretty clueless on this match up. Approach, stages, strategy, principal knowlege vs. icces Im sure wobbles will be illegal in most of my matches here but please include any information pertaining anti "wobbles" i Can confidently edge guard thats prolly it. thanks

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You should go learn what Wobbling is before trying to find counter strategies for it; it is unavoidable once initiated. Just don't get grabbed.

 

[DerfMidWest]

you play marth.
use fair and dtilt a lot.
L-cancel everything.
Don't throw out ground moves often (because they are slow and will get you grabbed)
don't go above the ICs
try to get them above you.
when edgeguarding, go for popo.

if you can get between them thats good, then just focus on keeping them separate.
learn their gimmicks.

 

[iRobinhoood]

Just dropping in to congratulate Fly's performance at The Big House 2. Man what a show. Congrats.

 

[choknater]

yea great job vs sfat, so close and so clutch at the end

but he did so bad vs hbox haha fly u could've done so much better! i think u got antsy and kept wavedashing forward into bairs... u approached a lot ahhhhh

i'd like to hear your own thoughts on it though

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I didn't want to retreat a lot since I didn't want to get shoved to the edge. I could have sat back a little more, though. The weird Nana rest trick caught me off-guard, too, and I didn't find a solid way of approaching him until the middle of the second round, around which time I started doing better.

The way I see it, I just wasn't sure how to play against him at first and got better ideas later on, but it was too little too late. I'm not going to stress over it since I learned some things from the set.

 

[knightpraetor]

I haven't got a chance to watch all the ICs vs jiggs matches but I felt like you weren't working towards reaching a spacing where jiggs cannot safely take to the air. I felt like you were either actually approaching or retreating at most points in the match. Particularly when you reach kill percent I think just getting a spacing out of range of jiggs on the ground is really strong as you can react to a lot of options.

it woudln't have bothered me so much if you weren't doing this on the small stages..but on FD it's really easy to do

 

[mexicanmax227]

you play marth.
use fair and dtilt a lot.
L-cancel everything.
Don't throw out ground moves often (because they are slow and will get you grabbed)
don't go above the ICs
try to get them above you.
when edgeguarding, go for popo.

if you can get between them thats good, then just focus on keeping them separate.
learn their gimmicks.

thanks Im am needing at least 10 characters.

 

[choknater]

ah i understand fly. yea u were doing so well against sfat, but when you played hbox i was shaking my head like, omg he's so much better than this hahahaha. and i didn't mean that you should retreat, but that you were making some very reckless approaches, like wd backwards toward him and whiffing full hop bairs. maybe it was an in the moment thing, or the fact that you were just playing against fox. idk.

bummer that nana got rested so much. what trick are you talking about?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I don't remember if my bair usage was dumb in the first half of the set, but I very deliberately started using it a certain way halfway through the second round and it overall worked out quite well for me; I did occasionally miss, but I can't expect to catch every read. I do remember being impatient on a few occasions, mostly after Hbox grabbed the edge or otherwise retreated to the side, although I don't think it actually cost me all that much. Maybe my memory is hazy. It is something I could do better in any case, though.

As for the trick, I was talking about reverse nair on a full shield -> rest. I don't know why that consistently hits Nana, but it caught me off-guard a lot early on. It became a non-issue when I started light-shielding more.

Also, I really don't want to dwell on what I could have done better at the end too much right now. I will think about what I could have done better later when I'm more emotionally detached from the event, but focusing on the negatives right after otherwise doing pretty well at a big event is just going to leave me needlessly bitter.

 

[iRobinhoood]

Fly you have ignited my re-attempts to learn the handoff. I can get most characters except Falco/Fox/Falcon. Is it just insanely hard?

Edit: Nvr mnd just realized I had been fthrowing with Popo instead of dthrow re-grab lol

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Fthrow actually can work, too, but you need to move forward with Nana before her grab against most characters, so you lose space more quickly; it also makes grabbing with Popo after Nana's fthrow awkward because of the greater distance between the two.

 

[Wobbles]

The main benefit to it is that you can push yourself into the handoff zone from farther away, even on floaties, without risking a failed d-throw d-air.

Speaking of which, should we be telling spacies how to escape it? Or do we want to see ICs continue making goofy comebacks? :D

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Whether we should tell people how to beat our character in general is a funny topic.

If people ask me about getting out of some CG (assuming we're not playing in the middle of a tourney set), I'll tell them, but I won't go out of my way to inform people otherwise since I don't view it as my responsibility to teach other people how to play their character's match-ups. The only downside I see is that keeping others in the shadows might hurt your grab game in the long run, which might especially screw you over if you ever come across somebody who does know how to SDI things properly and whatnot, but assuming your grab game is already otherwise fine, this is not an issue.

A funny thing I've noticed from talking to good space animal players is that a lot of them seem to have the gist of how to get out of dthrow -> dair, but are just really bad at it for some reason. When I was playing as Fox against Nintendude to help him warm up for pools, it felt really easy to get out of. I even thought of some more extreme ways getting out that would make trying dthrow -> dair on space animals even more of a gamble, but I'll let the Fox players figure those out.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I like goofy comebacks

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

Desync-heavy playstyle ***** in ICs dittos. Lessons learned from my first 2 tournament matches against top-level ic players.

 

[iRobinhoood]

I like goofy comebacks

For some reason its always against SFAT lol

Circa Aziz vs SFAT Apex 2012 on YS lol

 

[Nintendude]

Despite having to leave the venue early we were able to watch Fly vs. SFAT on Chillin's phone and managed to catch that ridiculous comeback. Congrats on 3rd, Fly. I can't wait to rewatch all the matches from this weekend.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

just saw that set, fly is amazing.....

 

[iRobinhoood]

Peach literally makes me want to cry. Tips? I keep getting dsmashed and just plain out prioritized in everything.

 

[voorhese]

Wait so you are saying fox can get out of handoffs???? (you don't have to tell me how =P, I want to experiment now, I just want to know if it is possible, so I am not completely wasting my time >_<)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It is completely impossible.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Mash really fast and hope Nana headbutts excessively.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If they mash out of Nana's grab, Popo can grab on reaction.
Not sure if he can grab air release; but no one air releases anyway, soooooo...

 

[DerfMidWest]

You can grab out of the air release.

 

[choknater]

Peach literally makes me want to cry. Tips? I keep getting dsmashed and just plain out prioritized in everything.

the matchup is heavily in peach's favor and almost impossible at top level

but there are still some good tips

- don't wavedash forward into dsmash. discipline yourself to wavedash back to avoid/intercept her approaches, catch her turnips, and space, and only wavedash forward when you know you won't get hit. or when you know she's learned to respect you, and in this case you need to condition her to

- if you are in position, punished whiffed dsmash with grab. the timing is very strict because she can stuff your grab with jab or another dsmash, but you can grab her if she relies on it too much and does it blindly.

- facing away and trying to intercept her float with well timed bairs can be good. running away and doing a wd back to dsmash or fsmash can be surprising for her

- when she has a turnip, BE SO CAREFUL. evade, catch, or block, in that order. some would say catching is the best, but it depends on your position. turnip is hard to deal with because it can set her up perfectly for a fair or dair approach. learning how to deal with them is crucial. wavedashing back is pretty good, because it helps you do all 3. you can wd back to evade, wd back and press a to catch, or block and then wd back out of shield. the problem with this is that you can push yourself into a corner extremely quickly with no way to retaliate. this is why wd back, catch turnip, and throw it back can save you some space. i think smasher89 had a video on how to deal with this

- use blizzards and ice blocks SPARINGLY to stop her approach. peach has a float height to avoid these things, so either stop, or try short hopped blizzards with nana. turnips also break through desynching so just be weary of how you use it. our projectiles are not bad, but not extremely reliable like they are in other matchups like vs marth

 

[Tomber]

To add to that:

- Don't let Nana get hit by Fair. Nana can't tech and a good Peach player will KO Nana easily once she's knocked into the ground. This can be very hard to play around however and is really the main reason why this match up is very hard for ICs (Peach's down smash is really overrated in this match up).

- Take her to stages with platforms. Don't go to FD as this probably is Peach's best stage in the match up. Against float camping Peach players try to force them to the end of the stage and then shoot Ice Blocks at her using the platforms. This works well on stages like BF, PS, and YS and there isn't much Peach can do.

- Good Peach players might try to float in a hight just above the top hit box of ICs' up-smash/f-smash so that you can't wave dash under her and smash her out of her float. If this is the case then try wave dash -> SH Uair under her. Uair reaches a little higher then any of ICs' smashes and can lead into a rather good combo.


Btw, here are some more matches between Armada and myself. Would be great if any of you could give me some critique.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKycl3Ktk2I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2t2LJE1dx0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJPZR0O_5HA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDNKZZ4suNA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBj8wMmE0kk

 

[choknater]

haha i can see why some ic's players say they do well against armada. i have never seen a strategy so simple and reductive. it's actually pretty suboptimal, but armada punishes better than any other peach off of one hit, so i can see why he still consistently wins the matchup. even if he doesn't use all of peach's good things vs ice climbers, like not using turnips or dairs to penetrate our defense, he has created a simple waiting strategy based on reactive fairs.

first of all, even though your movement in the neutral game is pretty good, the way you initiate offense is a little bit hasty. really try to pay attention to where armada is going, especially where he MIGHT go or where he CAN POTENTIALLY go. the best thing ic's have in this matchup is movement, and we have to move around and run away from peach a lot to maintain positions that aren't too risky.

what armada is doing is floating high and dominating the space below him and diagonally in front of him with the threat of fair. he isn't just throwing them out though, he's waiting to be in a good position before he uses it. then whether he hits your shield or gets a direct hit, he chooses a follow up based on that.

the fact that he's waiting can kinda be exploited. when we're not wavedashing or dash dancing to stay out of the fair's range, there are some opportunities to bite back. ic's generally don't have a lot of moves that can challenge that diagonal space, but if you think outside of the box there are some.

some options:

there were times where he floated too close and you could've hit him with a running short hopped nair before fair could even come out.

there were some times where he floated too low, and you could've done a short hopped synced ice block. this is good because there are like 4 hitboxes (two mallet, two projectiles) on the close ranged ice block, so there are many chances to clank with or beat whatever aerial peach does.

also, you can sometimes preemptively do a short hop synced side-B to make peach respect that air space. learn to control the aerial movement of the side-B to imitate a float, spinning like a helicopter horizontally. you can pepper some damage on peach and make her think twice about jumping into that space without thinking. you can kinda do it on reaction too, but the hitboxes are unreliable so i would only do it if i feel the peach is really not expecting it.

sometimes i wd in and utilt, ftilt upward, or usmash if i find her floating too low. usmash can kill but is so punishable that i really don't do it unless i really wanna go for an all-in KO gamble.

react and punish is generally the way to go vs peach... but if she knows how to make things safe, there are almost zero legitimate ways to punish her moves... i think that is the reason ic mains get so frustrated. so we have to find ways to initiate some offense ourselves... and theyre all so risky that i just gave up on the matchup lol. they also dont lead to grabs. lame!




anyway, these are some ways to deal with armada's reactive waiting and fair style peach. there are even better ways for her to fight ic's. the best at the matchup that i've fought were light, atma (they were more aggressive) and pink shinobi (extreme camping).

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

There were many times where you could of knocked Armada out of his float by just full hop ice blocking his ***.

 

[choknater]

pretty much right ^

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

Chokonater, I would like to apologize for **** talking you so much . After meeting Fly and Nintendude and discovering that both are humble/up standing young men. I've decided that I will be turning a new leaf concerning my ice climber brethren. From now on I will be nice to you guys . Come here, allow me to hug you.

 

[choknater]

LMAO

holy ****

nah man we gotta MM








but yea ic's bros are mad nice

 

[Cactuar]

2012 - The year Trail gets creepy.



Edit: what am i doing in the ic subforum...