Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Meme]

So~ I MIGHT be going to APEX'13 and I have to step it up to practice some technical stuff, anything aside Wavedash itself and WD out of shield that could be useful to start "training"?

I also have to recalibrate my joystick so I can pivot grab/jab.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

All I do is wd and wd out of shield to d smash, it seems to do ok. How do you guys find the motivation to sit down and practice chain grabs, lol I have adhd with this ****...

 

[choknater]

i find it fun

at least

i did back in 07/08

hahahhaha

 

[Meme]

I used to practice silly stuff with ICs and other characters (Samus' SWD, Mario's Up-B Walljump,Yo-Yo Glitch, etc) mostly for lulz.

For chaingrabs... I'm kind of lazy, except maybe the hand-off since it looks cool when done all the way and I've always sucked at setting up the Wobbling not that it's going to be legal in most tourneys anyway.

 

[Tomber]

D-throw dair regrab is a pretty good bread and butter chain grab for ICs, so if you haven't got that one down yet I think that's a good place to start.

Other basic stuff I can think of:

Wavedash -> jab cancelled jabs -> grab

Roll/dash dance -> blizzard/ice block

Being able charge a smash or use blizzard just after you get a grab as well as being able to control the length of your wavedashes is great too. Auto cancelled Uair chains is also a really powerful tool.

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

being able to control the length of your wavedashes is great too.

This is crazy important, honestly it's something that all ice climber players, of all skill levels can constantly work on.

 

[choknater]

haha to this day i still dont do it

man i should practice with it though

i'm either max length or wd in place

or hm... maybe i do some medium ones without thinking about it..

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

you can also dash or walk in each direction after a wd, which is important and things like wd>pivot ftilt desync are good to practice. Its actually pretty hard to get consistant with wavelands onto the stage ect. and super important to have good muscle memory for.

 

[choknater]

man

even though he's in my region, i don't play boback very often. i was able to play him finally, and now i know why they call it the "boback" to flub a ledge waveland. he literally does it like once a match

 

[Binx]

Ya I kill myself with a waveland like once every 2 or 3 matches I think its probably one of the main reasons that I lose close tournament sets.

 

[Meme]

I really need more tournament experience... or dunno... I tend to lose it on close matches far into the tournament, I've have clutched some wins but oh well gotta maintain and level up on consistency d >_>b...

Thanks for the suggestions, I'll be making it a routine so it pretty much burns into my muscle memory...

 

[choknater]

play often, and play hard!

experiment as much as possible in friendlies, and think outside the box to come up with new ideas in matchups, and learn your own style and fix your habits

these are great to do outside of tournaments, so that when tournaments come around you are more ready

 

[KirbyKaze]

ICs first tourney? I'd recommend you have at least

- One fast desynch you can do stuff with to avoid people using the Luigi strat vs you (not sidestep, roll, etc. - more like DD desynch or the turn around f-tilt one; just something not so telegraphed so you can do bizarre things to get out of people trying to limit you with positioning)

- Control over WD lengths and some basic fluid movement with dash & walk in and out of WD

- Competence with their basic CGs vs CGable or semi-CGable chars (Sheik, Fox, Ganon, Falcon, Falco)

- Competence with handoff vs the characters you damage race hardest (and where there's no guaranteed CG to build damage - Fox, Falco, Peach, Marth, and Puff are the main ones I'm thinking)

- WD OOS, the shield size tricks, and some knowledge of their OOS game aside from grab (they're different backwards than forwards vs a lot of chars)

That's about it

After that just add what you think you need to shape a good style. ICs afford a lot of variance in how they're played.

 

[choknater]

yeah light shield is godlike

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think the fast desynch is really important vs characters like Ganon & Puff (and other box-them-in styles) so you can get an attack that extends beyond the range of your normals ASAP and counter their poking games to some degree without needing to sidestep or roll. Sidestep & roll are too slow and the latter gives up too much space IMO. DD desynch is so convenient for this reason.

And I agree, lightshield is in fact godlike. I recently saw Chu using it vs PP at Zenith (rewatched the set) to get nairs OOS going (absorb laser with lightshield, nair with Popo) and it looked flimsy but worked off an interesting principle; maybe with bair this has potential or something? It was a cool play. I think there might be something here.

 

[choknater]

that sounds so random and unplanned and chu-like

and yet that's where we get most of our ice climbers neutral game LOL

yeah i should use the dd desynch more. i corner myself too much vs ganon and puff because i'm hungry for blizzards. i should hold my ground

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm glad you mention that because you often say you're stuck at the edge from running so much defense but I have a question... why are you feeling so pressured or forced to retreat? Particularly when you have the defense setup done? Like, once you have the blizzard active and a free climber handy (since presumably you're being pushed there over the course of the stock, not just at once) is there really much motivation to retreat further? Even vs Ganon IMO there isn't - once you're under the plat, the plat's roof constricts approach angles enough so that you can funnel their approach options and look for a way to counterattack. The goal of the blizzard defense IMO should be to convert the opponent's offense into advantage, and facilitate a coutnerattack by creating a dead zone for them. It's not strictly keep out. And at that point I think the blizzard functionally becomes more of a disjointed sex kick / poke since there's only a few ways to deal with it and there are counters within Popo's option pool.

On a side note, I've often wondered about using blizzard vs boxed in opponents for similar reasons but that's another post. I'd imagine it constricts defense too...

Anyway, IMHO I don't think defense forever really works, especially with a character this frail. Their defense is mostly just a way to constrict attack options further so they can fish for a substantial hit and convert it into a situation where a monster grab punish is possible. This means a lot of long term thinking IMO since you need to keep them off balance long enough for Nana to resynch and enable the grab punish you want. But I think it'd doable. When I fought Fly, I felt he was just trying to get me to attack in specific patterns and construct his counters from there. It required some offense & counter-fighting on his behalf and I feel his playstyle wouldn't have worked as it did vs me if he just tried to literally wall me with it forever.

And yeah the dash dance & similar movement desynchs are a great utility for setting up the defense on the fly when a tiny opportunity presents itself.

 

[choknater]

well i know about the defense to offense thing. usually when nana is blizzarding i pay attention to where the opponent is, and do things like dash dance or move forward with popo just so i can react and choose an option.

it's just that roll has always been my go-to way of activating a desynch, and it is usually pretty reliable to give me breathing room. i just don't like the positioning sometimes, especially since some puffs and ganons (bizzarro) i fought have lately found a way to break through. i should dd desynch!

 

[KirbyKaze]

Yeah being able to set things up in a less telegraphed and more efficient manner often leads to wins on its own. Just 'cuz you're doing what you've always done but just... better. And you can do it in more places.

 

[choknater]

too good kk

in other news i've been trying to think of ways to pressure falco before he can pressure me. i used to rely on trying to counter what he does, but i realized i'm better off trying to prevent him from grabbing momentum in the first place.

playing against DP was a nice lesson in defeating patience, but it did not teach me how to fight really legit falcos. after i get a little better idea on how to win it, i'd like to exact my revenge on hmw, ppu, and especially zhu

 

[Tomber]

And I agree, lightshield is in fact godlike. I recently saw Chu using it vs PP at Zenith (rewatched the set) to get nairs OOS going (absorb laser with lightshield, nair with Popo) and it looked flimsy but worked off an interesting principle; maybe with bair this has potential or something? It was a cool play. I think there might be something here.

I do this accidentally from time to time resulting in some pretty good OoS hits. Haven't thought about using it as a way to counter projectiles, though. Might look into that. I think It has potential in both scenarios.

I think fast decyncs are pretty important in ICs' neutral game. It's funny to watch different ICs players different choices of desyncs in their game. Fly does his dash dance, Nintendude uses turn around f-tilt-jab, and I use my retreating dash-dash-duck to set up ice blocks and blizzard. And you can mix them to trick your opponent.

 

[KirbyKaze]

too good kk

in other news i've been trying to think of ways to pressure falco before he can pressure me. i used to rely on trying to counter what he does, but i realized i'm better off trying to prevent him from grabbing momentum in the first place.

playing against DP was a nice lesson in defeating patience, but it did not teach me how to fight really legit falcos. after i get a little better idea on how to win it, i'd like to exact my revenge on hmw, ppu, and especially zhu

I wonder if boxing him in the corner with blizzard could work

I love blizzard lolz

Pivot jump block / pivot jump blizzard with Nana is a crazy fast desynch but it's also hard as **** to do

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I do the same thing as Nintendude.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I've always been a fan of the f-tilt & jab desynchs

 

[Grim Tuesday]

ICs ftilt is a really incredible move I just want to throw that out there

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think using f-tilt for knockdowns is very underrated at mid percent. Especially when trying to follow up on a smash can be hard (if not impossible) and where tech chasing the grab is probably more legit of a link (and less risky) than attempting to jab-grab or whatever.

I think f-tilt knockdowns are very underutilized and underrated. Not even with ICs specifically, but it's more pronounced with them 'cuz of the obvious potential payoffs.

I think hitting people during windows where they can't tech to create jab resets into some elaborate death combo is also something people need to spend more time investigating. Especially with heavily punishment-oriented characters like this one, Falcon, Sheik, etc.

 

[choknater]

yeah i've been getting ftilt -> jab reset a lot lately

it's too good

i also have been getting a lot of jab resets from fair double hits that end up spiking. very nasty

capitalizing off my random defense feels so good

 

[Tomber]

F-tilt also puts some characters just in range of f-smash at lower procent. Then you can hit them out of their jump or moves like shine.

Speaking of f-tilt

WD backwards -> fast falled auto cancelled bair -> f-tilt-jab desync -> Nana down smash facing away -> Popo f-smash/d-smash/whatever is pretty cool.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Yeah I love "combos" where you push them (while they're still standing) into the range of the follow and then hit it

Like the hilt of d-tilt > tipped d-smash with Marth vs floaties at like 80%

Swag kill and it looks sick

 

[Wobbles]

I like it when you hit somebody who is both trying to CC and DI in, so you ground them with a move and they just roll straight back into you for free grab times.

 

[voorhese]

Hey trail what is a jc grab?

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

Dont pick on trail in here, do it some place where he actually is like the ganon boards
i think sometimes he actually wants to do the dash grab cause it actually covers more space but i think sometimes he just messes JC up.

 

[DerfMidWest]

Boost grab is a thing...
But I dont think the ICs gain anything from it.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Fly/chok: Are you guys going to KoC? I signed up but I'm super rusty and don't really wanna go... But it's only half an hour away...

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

I remember wobbles making a great post about foxes approach options but cant find it, can you guys help me find it

 

[choknater]

Fly/chok: Are you guys going to KoC? I signed up but I'm super rusty and don't really wanna go... But it's only half an hour away...

fly probably is, but not me

u should go lol. it'll be great practice and even if you lose, you will get to play CALI players who have tons of ic's experience in both regions, and we are amazing. and you will get to see the hype norcal vs socal crew battle

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Yes, I will be there.

 

[sidefx]

aight sup ic homies,

im tired of losing to crappy *** people so.

its time to help me get better. Ive never really bothered to study matchups and **** i just kinda play the player, but **** SHEIK.


how do you beat sheiks. especially lame ones that sh fair/tilt bull**** i cant get in dudes.

dash attack and upsmash kinda work but my spacing sucks too much to rely on those to get in and break up that dumb wall sheiks put up against me.

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

1st of all maybe you should check out the IC matchup guide and see under shiek. then try the basic common advice it has. then post in this thread about specific situations u need help in and we will help you but right now the best advice we can give you is that shiek has a high short hop and you can slide in under her with good timing and upsmash, its actually not that hard to do even for someone with little exp unlike you
I actually think ics are 1 of the chars that it really depends on the matchup how u play, some things are really dumb in certain matchups and the same thing can be super effective and win you a game in other matchups

 

[Tomber]

Be very careful when you wave dash towards her. Sheik has the tools to easily hit you out of your wave dash while you're still in "landing" lag. You might like to use more short hop aerials like bair/uair to approach. My favorite way of approaching in this matchup is running SH AC Uair into her when she is about to short jump (which Sheik players do all the time at low procent to rank up damage with fair/bair. They don't want to dash attach / use tilts when you can CC those). Sh uair hits hard and is a great combo starter. It can take some time to learn to do it properly, though.

Also, learn to chain grab Sheik if you don't do that already. Be patient and see which way the Sheik player DI to. You should be able to get the regrab without guessing after some time.

But yeah, most importantly, don't WD into 'em fairs and bairs. Run in as she is about to jump. And shield needles.