Social General Ice Climber Chat

[Tomber]

I might be able to make a video with my own equipment, but it won't be pretty. I used to record a lot (have a lot of video games related videos on my old youtube channel http://www.youtube.com/user/Takk88) but the quality is pretty bad, and I don't really have a good software for editing.

However, I'm probably going to stream some melee using my friend's equipment next week. I could demonstrate it on the stream and stuff.

 

[Nintendude]

I need to stop losing to Samus players in game 3

 

[PB&J]

nintendude-if i go to nec,we can discuss more icy stuff there. cool seeing you at rom man

 

[Tomber]

I need to stop losing to Samus players in game 3

I just watched your matches vs. M2K and DJ, and I'd like to comment on a few things.

You did a lot of f-tilt and SH bair against M2K's Fox on FD. While I agree that these are decent moves to use in this match up, I think you should have mixed it up a bit. M2K rather quickly realized that you liked to approach with these moves and started to counter attack with full hop over you to bair. There were a few times were you pushed him all the edge where he would just jump over you without much trouble as he saw another bair/f-tilt coming. In these situations I think you should have done something like SH uair or FH nair to catch him in his jump. You lost Nana a few times to letting him get around you at the edge and shine Nana. Against his Marth you did some mistakes that he punished which gave him even more momentum.

You played the Samus match up very well I think and I believe you would have won if had been more consistent technically. You got punished hard for messing up your f-tilt-jab desync a few times. You also messed up a wobbles and let him escape a grab where you could have wobbled him if you didn't wait. In fact, this also happened against M2K. I think you should practice your wobbling a bit so that you can do it immediately after a grab in any scenario. Shield grab -> wobbling, WD -> wobbling, Jab -> wobbling. I've read somewhere did you don't really practice on your own, but it's really one of the only ways to be consistent, That, and being able be control your nerves. Dunno if this were a problem in bracket, though. You played a whole lot better in the friendlies you played on stream, so maybe you were nervous.

The last think I'd like to point out is our recovery game with Sopo. You pretty much always used side-b to recover which actually worked out for you many times, but in some cases I felt that you should just have taken the edge. Like, air dodge to the edge when your opponent isn't standing right next to it. The same goes for Fly who didn't go for the edge when recovering as Sopo a single time at KoC IIRC. It looks like you both try to side-b into/through the other player when coming from off stage. It's often the best choice, but you can still mix it up.

Besides these things, I think you played very well. Good spacing, good movement, good decisions most of the time, and some good uses of desyncs. To me it seems like you got knocked out in bracket because of few crucial mistakes while you played really well in the friendly matches. Just my thoughts.

 

[DerfMidWest]

I think the logic behind not going for the ledge is that Sopo cant get off of it very well....

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I disagree; Sopo's ledge-dash is incredible.

 

[DerfMidWest]

No. I think it sucks if the catch on. And he cant do anything else really.
Once they learn the length of the ledgedash they can just stand outside of it and wd back -> stuff if you try to get back.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It's not a full commitment though, you can jump out of it and waveland onto a platform, etc...

Being invincible is pretty incredible.

 

[Tomber]

ICs is one of the few characters that have a decent amount of invincibility frames where ledge dashing if you do it fast enough. Also, you can still control the length of the ledge dash and mix it up in other ways too. Short ledge dash (sd down), ledge long dash to roll/spot dodge, ledge jump to blizzard, ledge dash to grab.

Anyway, my point was more that Nintendude and Fly didn't seem to mix it up. They did, however, mix up the way of using the side-b, which worked out pretty well for them both in some cases. But I still think it's better to mix it up with stuff from the edge.

Fox players also have a decent side-b they can use to recover, but more often then not they go for the ledge.

 

[Nintendude]

I just rewatched some of the DJ Nintendo set. I noticed that my wd oos timing vs Samus was really off a lot of the time. I screwed up some easy punishment opportunities and made some dumb accidental rolls which got me killed. I really wish I had a way to practice this matchup.

I felt like DJ did a really good job of using missiles to force me into a high side-B recovery. There were some times I could have tried for the edge but he's really good at calling that so I felt it was better to try and weave around him or get hit back on stage, which I was able to do a few times.

Against m2k it was mostly a lack of patience and letting him put me in bad situations. I still act on impulse a bit too much as well. I think I have m2k mostly figured out though (with the help of some wise words from KK) so hopefully I can put up a much more solid fight next time.

 

[Tomber]

Since you timed DJ Nintendo out one game and wobbling was allowed, I thought this might be useful in future matches (though I hope it won't).
In Europe the standard ruleset it that you can wobble until 300%, so here are some numbers on how long it takes to wobble from 0% to 300%.

High BPM with f-tilt: 28 seconds
Low BPM with f-tilt: 32 seconds

High BPM with d-tilt: 37 seconds
Low BPM with d-tilt: 42 seconds

So, yeah, if you want to time someone out, be sure to use wobble with d-tilt at low bpm.

Spoiler

You should not try to win this way, btw

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

I need to stop losing to Samus players in game 3

-.- cmon bro don't be losing to dj nintendo, ur dropping the ****ing ball.

 

[choknater]

i find myself having to play in a high-risk way when i want to beat samus. i can do it but i feel uncomfortable going in so hard lol

i just CP young link against her now, free matchup

 

[Tomber]

Throw ice blocks at her and poke to her with uair when she jumps over your ice. If she doesn't jump, it's a potential grab.
Samus hits ICs really hard, but you don't have to play high-risk IMO.

You think Young Link beats Samus?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I tend to side-B to recover a lot since, in my experience, going for a ledge-grab is even easier to punish, and is also easy to react to. I could try to mix up my recovery more, but I feel like I'm just gambling on the opponent being incompetent when I do that, which is not something I like to rely on. Granted, I'm kind of doing the same thing with the side-B, too, but I generally feel less helpless then.

 

[choknater]

You think Young Link beats Samus?

yeah easy!

 

[Wobbles]

Fly; try and figure out the cues that convince people to start maneuvering towards the edge and exploiting them. I will mix up my fast and slow falls to convince people I'm going low then almost immediately forward+b once I've provoked the response. That lets me start getting the edge a bit more, or force bad edgeguarding hits that give me more height and options.

For instance, I'm falling in that ambiguous "will he forward+b or up+b/airdodge from a lower angle" zone. Slow falling hints that I'm gonna forward+b, whereas a fastfall suggests I'm trying to get low quicker and more surprisingly. So I purposefully switch the two up to play off that, doing fast falls close to edge grab range to suggest a quick up+b, then quickly forward+b'ing as the opponent starts their turn->wavedash back or move to hit me. Things like that.

Don't wait for incompetency, encourage it

 

[Tomber]

^This, pretty much.

Also, I'm going to stream some Melee this friday and show off some neat ICs tricks I haven't posted about here, some of which I think have a lot of potential. I'll play be playing a lot of friendlies most of the weekend too, so you should come and join the chat. I'll post a link friday.

 

[Meme]

Well... I got to play Javi this past weekend and did well I guess compared to previous encounters, I didn't get destroyed.

I would have loved to play him more though it's hard when there's like 10+ people around to play him. I would level up like crazy, such a smooth Fox.

Anyway, I always have a hard time when trying to land safely on to the stage after and U-air/smash Vs Fox (or any fast character that is) since the floatyness to me seems eternal when falling vs fast characters.

 

[choknater]

smart stuff wobbles

 

[byron]

Would this be a viable edge guarding method? I think it might be good because of the spaced b-airs but what do I know. Maybe its better to just f-smash/d-smash the ledge.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o48n7Ypy5fI

 

[voorhese]

The better question is why aren't we throwing a bair out when we do the up bair out of shield edgeguard.

 

[choknater]

do u have to set it up with a roll?

 

[byron]

No. U can desync faster by doing a spot dodge.

 

[choknater]

but you'd still have to set yourself up to the very edge... so i guess wavedash back, spot dodge, then do the double bair?

still sounds slow :O

 

[byron]

i would only use it if u hit the enemy off the stage and u were already at the edge. Then u would only have to roll to the edge to be on the absolute edge and do the b-airs.
It makes no sense to run to the edge after u hit them off and try to do this. It would take too long. This is a more Circumstantial edge guard for if your already there and only have to roll and do the b-air if they are slightly above the level of the stage while recovering. If they are already under the stage and trying to recover u would just down smash.

 

[voorhese]

So as of last friday night I am officially maining the ice climbers and dropping fox to my secondary. I just love the ice climbers enough for it not to matter to me how well I do now, and I want to try my best to master these intricate little beasts.

 

[cannedbread]

i wish i could play icies but they seem very frustrating

 

[voorhese]

I honestly REALLY like how hard they are to play. I am forced to think about really simple/subtle answers to stuff instead of just changing like I do with fox. And I am bias with fox because I learned him at home and just went to tourneys with him, so my fundamentals were real bad, but now. I have people to play against and I am learning the climbers fundamentals through real matches and thinking of my own answers, it is nice.

Fun fact: The night I decided to actually main them (Saturday night in Michigan) it started snowing.

Also Wobbles and Fly, not to sound weird, but I would really like to add you both on facebook. I REALLY want to take this serious, and having you 2 on top of trail to personally talk to would help a lot.

 

[john!]

oh good voorhese is no longer a threat to me





<3

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Also Wobbles and Fly, not to sound weird, but I would really like to add you both on facebook. I REALLY want to take this serious, and having you 2 on top of trail to personally talk to would help a lot.

I'm not on Facebook. You can contact me via Skype or AIM if you want to.

 

[voorhese]

I will have a pocket fox ofc too john, it's not like you go from being the most technical fox in the midwest to not being able to play him at all >_<

 

[choknater]

add me on facebook man

 

[voorhese]

Ight, facebook.com/voorhese

 

[choknater]

aight i just added u, im andre theus felix

 

[voorhese]

Yeah you used ur tag for ur facebook too, I saw it. I am on league now. We will talk Ice comblets later

 

[choknater]

aight cool

 

[SillyGoose]

I'm having tons of fun with ICs =). I never approached this character because of what I thought was a high barrier of entry, but really all of ice climbers grab shenanigans seem pretty easy to master.

One question though, nana's six frame lag applies when she's doing the handoff, right? Does anyone have tips for linking into her grabs when you can't use the green-flash d-throw and hammer-connect f-throw tricks like with popo's? The timing is really throwing me off.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

No it doesn't apply when you hand-off as far as I know.

And no, you just need to practice. Everyone uses different cues.

 

[choknater]

tbh i was able to handoff after coming back from brawl to melee LOL

practice and muscle memory

practice vs different characters too