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General Discussion & Character Rankings
- Thread starter Shaya
- Start date
While tiers may exist and you may get more respect for placing higher with a lower tier character, respect isn't what we're measuring now is it?
No it’s not. I am measuring skill. Respect is just a by-product of an acknowledgement of skill; that isn’t the primary focus of the discussion.
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Again I'll bring you back to Cao's statements about what HE THINKS is a more skilled player.
Your ability to read, to adapt, to overcome major obstacles, reduce technical errors, win matchups against your favour etc, can all be combined to make an educated and justified judgement on a player's actual skill.
Does this mean a player is more skilled? That's your opinion, and I disagree. Having more skill with a single character and being able to cover your bad match-ups are just being skilled with your character specifically...
How is that a counter claim for why you think my gauges of interpreting skill are disagreeable? You can main a single character and still achieve all of the abovementioned. I have not suggested that you need to be a master of diversity to be skilled. There are skilled specialists as well. I am one of those people.
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Read Cao's stuff again. He explicitly stated that the tiers make an adverse effect on the results
Adverse = wrong word used. I have not suggested tiers makes results bad or negative, I have suggested the interpretation of the results by the general community can be somewhat ill-conceived and delusional.
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To finish off, I don't want to be in the business of debating differences of opinion, I’m only in the business of invaliding ill-conceived, ignorant and generalised statements. So my work here was done long ago.
No it’s not. I am measuring skill. Respect is just a by-product of an acknowledgement of skill; that isn’t the primary focus of the discussion.
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Again I'll bring you back to Cao's statements about what HE THINKS is a more skilled player.
Your ability to read, to adapt, to overcome major obstacles, reduce technical errors, win matchups against your favour etc, can all be combined to make an educated and justified judgement on a player's actual skill.
Does this mean a player is more skilled? That's your opinion, and I disagree. Having more skill with a single character and being able to cover your bad match-ups are just being skilled with your character specifically...
How is that a counter claim for why you think my gauges of interpreting skill are disagreeable? You can main a single character and still achieve all of the abovementioned. I have not suggested that you need to be a master of diversity to be skilled. There are skilled specialists as well. I am one of those people.
-----
Read Cao's stuff again. He explicitly stated that the tiers make an adverse effect on the results
Adverse = wrong word used. I have not suggested tiers makes results bad or negative, I have suggested the interpretation of the results by the general community can be somewhat ill-conceived and delusional.
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To finish off, I don't want to be in the business of debating differences of opinion, I’m only in the business of invaliding ill-conceived, ignorant and generalised statements. So my work here was done long ago.
swordsaint
Smash Master
Kinda just makes you rude really. Have your OPINION, and I'll have mine. However insinuating I'm ignorant simply because my belief is different to that of yours, isn't a "moderator" thing thing to do, it isn't mature at all. I haven't gone ahead and said "haiizloool ur opinion is diffnent o mine ima gonna call you shizz!!!1"
Darkwing SykeDuk
Smash Dankist
I don't think I've read 1 of your posts and not gone "omg you ****ing fail" you should just disappear for a while.
swordsaint
Smash Master
Sorry I'm not a complete geek which devotes every living moment of my life to thinking about the game and all it's aspects to be able construct some insanely lengthy arguement about a game and how you're wrong, I'm right or just succumbing to all your ****ing ideals which I don't agree with.
I disagree and if you don't like it, **** off.
I disagree and if you don't like it, **** off.
Darkwing SykeDuk
Smash Dankist
Averaging 1 tourney per year lately.. dedication right thar.
There's no need to take this the wrong way. I have not stated you are ignorant, your original statement is, even if you didn't realise.
Also, no trashtalking, the both of you.
tedeth
Smash Master
Scoot you're so serious.
Calm down man. It's not worth ostracising yourself from the national community. If you truly see it as a difference of opinion then it shouldn't matter. From what I can see you're defending your "opinion" as firmly as Cao is defending his.
Calm down man. It's not worth ostracising yourself from the national community. If you truly see it as a difference of opinion then it shouldn't matter. From what I can see you're defending your "opinion" as firmly as Cao is defending his.
Hey hey, come now Scoot. There's no reason to pay someone out because they've chosen to live their life a certain way.
I don't like it when people do that
I used to get that **** all the time, it's not very cool.
It's just like how you've chosen a certain view, and feel annoyed when people don't see it your way.
swordsaint
Smash Master
I don't feel annoyed when people disagree with my opinion, but when someone can't see that it's an opinion and then continue to criticise me just because theirs is different.
I'll end it on this then. If tournaments aren't a measure of ones skill what point do we have in competing??? Why don't we just have competitive friendlies and money matches all the time if all they do is promote competitiveness within the community?
I believe that a tournament is an accurate measure of the top TWO players only and that all below it MAY have have gotten some bad match-ups, being able to cover your weaknesses may also include using a different character and if you lose in the final then the other player played better than you, and was very likely better than you on the day. Consistent wins in tournaments with the same top players attending is an accurate measure of skill IMO.
Caotic said that tourney wins "aren't always an accurate measure of skill" but that's the same as saying tournaments CAN BE an accurate measure of skill. How can it sometimes not be and sometimes be? People's skill levels fluctuate all the time from better to worse and vice versa. If you manage to win, you're better than the other player because you have more consistency in your play.
That's how see it. Tiers or no tiers, character flaws or no flaws.
Caotic, you said my original statement is ignorant, but saying that you're disregarding my opinion. You don't have to agree but there's also no need to call it ignorant because I have reasons and you may not agree with them. However I see fit that they're reason enough for me to have such a perspective on it.
It's like saying Toby's really the best NSW player but because Shaya uses a higher tier he wins. Shaya won...twice, so he's at the top of the game in NSW right.
I'll end it on this then. If tournaments aren't a measure of ones skill what point do we have in competing??? Why don't we just have competitive friendlies and money matches all the time if all they do is promote competitiveness within the community?
I believe that a tournament is an accurate measure of the top TWO players only and that all below it MAY have have gotten some bad match-ups, being able to cover your weaknesses may also include using a different character and if you lose in the final then the other player played better than you, and was very likely better than you on the day. Consistent wins in tournaments with the same top players attending is an accurate measure of skill IMO.
Caotic said that tourney wins "aren't always an accurate measure of skill" but that's the same as saying tournaments CAN BE an accurate measure of skill. How can it sometimes not be and sometimes be? People's skill levels fluctuate all the time from better to worse and vice versa. If you manage to win, you're better than the other player because you have more consistency in your play.
That's how see it. Tiers or no tiers, character flaws or no flaws.
Caotic, you said my original statement is ignorant, but saying that you're disregarding my opinion. You don't have to agree but there's also no need to call it ignorant because I have reasons and you may not agree with them. However I see fit that they're reason enough for me to have such a perspective on it.
It's like saying Toby's really the best NSW player but because Shaya uses a higher tier he wins. Shaya won...twice, so he's at the top of the game in NSW right.
Toby.
Smash Master
Why hello thar. Marth : Squirtle matchup ratio is something like 75:25 lols. But no johns, amirite?
I dont really feel like having a debate, and I'm not looking to prove you wrong scoot. I just want you to consider something. My room mate can beat me almost every time with metaknight. Against any one of his other characters I usually 2 stock him. I can also consistantly beat him when I use his own characters as well. In a MK ditto I 2 stock him.
We both agree that I am the better player. Now imagine if we went to the next five tournaments and every time I played him he used metaknight and I used pokemon trainer. Realistically I will lose, so in those 5 tournaments he will place higher than me.
Does this make him more skilled than me?
Once again this isn't an attempt to argue with you, its just something to think about.
IMO the best way to look at all this is to divide "Ability to win" and "skill". Having lots of skill doesn't necessarily mean you have a great chance of winning a tournament. Also, placing high at tournaments doesn't necessarily indicate lots of skill. Of course the people who win tournaments are very skilful. Nevertheless, treating them as the be all and end all would be foolish in a game so dominated by matchups.
Matchups are the reason FTS will never win a tournament with DK if the opponent fully exploits his weakness. He is still easily one of the best players in the state though. Same thing with me and shaya. I dont think that I'll ever be able to consistantly beat his marth because the matchup is just too much to overcome against an equally skilled player, let alone someone better than me.
swordsaint
Smash Master
This is the part where I say if you lost it's your own fault though.
Yeah, tcr didn't abuse Marth's horrible recovery bug enough, that's why he didn't win.
Oh, but I think this chat has gone a bit off track. Wouldn't Forte's Super Fun Happy time's place be better for discussing the philosophy of skill?
Oh, but I think this chat has gone a bit off track. Wouldn't Forte's Super Fun Happy time's place be better for discussing the philosophy of skill?
Toby.
Smash Master
Sigh.
Did you read my post?
I made a clear distinction between ability to WIN and SKILL. Then I demonstrated where this disparity occurs. I know its my fault for not picking metaknight. Whether or not its my fault for not using metaknight doesn't mean **** when we're talking about skill. It's only relevent when we are talking about my ability to win. Ability to win is centred on character choice.
Sigh
Did you read my post?
I made a clear distinction between ability to WIN and SKILL. Then I demonstrated where this disparity occurs. I know its my fault for not picking metaknight. Whether or not its my fault for not using metaknight doesn't mean **** when we're talking about skill. It's only relevent when we are talking about my ability to win. Ability to win is centred on character choice.
Sigh
swordsaint
Smash Master
I didn't see Toby's edit due to taking a little bit of time to write my post. (I wrote alot and then deleted because I cbf)
However I definately get what Toby is getting at.
However I definately get what Toby is getting at.
this is why i refuse to pull lucas out in tournaments. i think my ability to approach, combo and follow up with him is argubly more skillful than what my snake can do, but lucas simply cant win against a few characters. so instead i sweep low tier tournys with him
I LAG
Smash Lord
WTF is happening here?
anyways i'm the best coz i use mk end of story
anyways i'm the best coz i use mk end of story
Browny
Smash Hater
tourney wins =/= tourney placements
which is where this all started...
um lol this was directed at last post on previous page, i didnt refresh in ages
which is where this all started...
um lol this was directed at last post on previous page, i didnt refresh in ages
So how about that Lain getting third with Ice Climbers?
Beat Mew2King's Metacake in winners bracket.
Beat Mew2King's Metacake in winners bracket.
Jupz
Smash Master
Go king dedede!!!! lain and atomsk ftw!!!
LOL you're saying that because he came 2nd at a national level tournament?
He's still the best American player, Ally just really wanted that win.
It's not a matter of M2K not being good, it's a matter of Ally stepping up to his level.
Lain also did this, but then M2K stepped up his game again, something Lain wasn't able to match (although it did come close).
But seriously, don't discount him because of something like a single loss.
There are too many different variables to count skill off tournament victories.
I thought atleast YOU would have got my sarcasm lol.
C~Dog
Smash Champion
I ALWAYS NEW M2K WAS BAD AT BRAWL!!!!!!!!!
ALLY IS THE NEW M2k!!! LONG LIVE ALLY!!!!!
ALLY IS THE NEW M2k!!! LONG LIVE ALLY!!!!!
Vlade
Social Outcast
Lain just knows the IC's vs Metaknight match-up inside-out.
If you really know your match-ups well, you have a better chance of succeeding in tournaments. After all, brawl is quite dominated by match-ups unlike SF2 and other such games.
If you really know your match-ups well, you have a better chance of succeeding in tournaments. After all, brawl is quite dominated by match-ups unlike SF2 and other such games.
High quality vids of the grand finals against ally and m2k are up.
First one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q2DdBNajvo
Honestly, that was an amazing match. I can't even think of some of the old melee vids that were as 'gripping' as this.
First one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7q2DdBNajvo
Honestly, that was an amazing match. I can't even think of some of the old melee vids that were as 'gripping' as this.
Nixernator
Smash Ace
Thank god, the recorded off livestream ones were hurting my eyes. Thanks for pointing that out Shaya.
Vlade
Social Outcast
How about an Australian Tier List?
ACCELERATE
Smash Lord
Like it matters? Characters are the same in every version...
Vlade
Social Outcast
But not results.
Browny
Smash Hater
So, you want an australian character tournament popularity list?
first page of this thread
first page of this thread
ACCELERATE
Smash Lord
Thank you browny.
Some people...
Edit: As you can see by post count hell took over me there.
Some people...
Edit: As you can see by post count hell took over me there.
Vlade
Social Outcast
Tier list and rankings list are different things.
I understand if you don't want to make one. I thought I'd bring up the idea because Europe are probably going to do one.
I understand if you don't want to make one. I thought I'd bring up the idea because Europe are probably going to do one.
Unlike melee (imo), the current brawl generation of high placers take researching, reading and being apart of their individual character communities seriously. Allowing them to keep up with new discoveries, etc etc.
In other words the real tier list would be significantly similar to an Australian one. We know Wolf, Sonic and PT aren't in the top 10 characters in the game, but how far off would they be from the real tier list?
If there was a larger spread of players using all characters, and taking their character and the game reasonably serious, then yeah sure.
But we can't do that now.
In other words the real tier list would be significantly similar to an Australian one. We know Wolf, Sonic and PT aren't in the top 10 characters in the game, but how far off would they be from the real tier list?
If there was a larger spread of players using all characters, and taking their character and the game reasonably serious, then yeah sure.
But we can't do that now.
Browny
Smash Hater
I think an 'Australia sucks at brawl, our rankings list reflects that' explains it more, and is enough reason not to bother with our own tier list
xXArrowXx
Smash Champion
well u got 4 main things in smash
match ups (the potential in the characters to **** another. like snake tilts, ddd chain grabs)
play styles (the way you play with your character can improve your match up or hinder it. like a snake that uses more grenades than tilts)
stages (advantage or disadvantage..)
rank results (results from tournies)
tier system only really uses to 4th one.. its only really a veiw into the scence u are in at the curent collected time. so unless you want to know something like "are the majority of metaknights are good -> above average".. then its pretty useless.
*also note that counter play styles with a bad match up may not even vs the winner of the tournament..
hmm so if a tier list is to find out whats the best character then there is none... (cough mk cough)
so the factors involved with winning a game are; Skill with ya controller, experience, knowledge of match ups and stages, luck .. not tier lists.
well that was a ramble.. of some ideas. anyone got something to add.
match ups (the potential in the characters to **** another. like snake tilts, ddd chain grabs)
play styles (the way you play with your character can improve your match up or hinder it. like a snake that uses more grenades than tilts)
stages (advantage or disadvantage..)
rank results (results from tournies)
tier system only really uses to 4th one.. its only really a veiw into the scence u are in at the curent collected time. so unless you want to know something like "are the majority of metaknights are good -> above average".. then its pretty useless.
*also note that counter play styles with a bad match up may not even vs the winner of the tournament..
hmm so if a tier list is to find out whats the best character then there is none... (cough mk cough)
so the factors involved with winning a game are; Skill with ya controller, experience, knowledge of match ups and stages, luck .. not tier lists.
well that was a ramble.. of some ideas. anyone got something to add.
Browny
Smash Hater
Lol this has nothing to do with tourneys, but the other thread got locked so...
If any people here use wifi, please add me lol. I'm online very often and will almost always be able to play if anyone asks me to on msn (provided im not having dinner). I notice a few guys here frequent mywii wifi forums so I know theres a few other freaks out here like me who enjoy wifi
who can pass up the opportunity to play vs the best Sonic in aus :D
If any people here use wifi, please add me lol. I'm online very often and will almost always be able to play if anyone asks me to on msn (provided im not having dinner
). I notice a few guys here frequent mywii wifi forums so I know theres a few other freaks out here like me who enjoy wifi who can pass up the opportunity to play vs the best Sonic in aus :D
AdmiralComrade
Smash Journeyman
i would.. if it wasnt so fun.. lol sumtimes the spin noises get soo annoyying its like *spiiiin sound* x9001 arggh stop it its like a mind game =[ lol
+ its not Aus sucks at brawl is just our numbers compared to other countries suck :D
+ its not Aus sucks at brawl is just our numbers compared to other countries suck :D
swordsaint
Smash Master
wrong thread.....*idiot*