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General Discussion & Character Rankings
- Thread starter Shaya
- Start date
Ally won the grand finals of Apex, 2 stocking metaknight in the last match, Ally won winner's bracket, M2K only took one game off of Ally in the grand finals.
Ban Snake
ACCELERATE
Smash Lord
I can't believe he lived to 222% on that last life...
I don't think Delfino was a smart idea, he got IKED.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baDIzwex_Xw is the better quality of 1&2, the other 2 are upped but horrible quality and no audio.
Grounded grenade kill pretty crazy and yeah why would he go Delphino really didn't work out.
Grounded grenade kill pretty crazy and yeah why would he go Delphino really didn't work out.
Match one doesn't work aparently.
1. Ally (Snake)
2. Mew2King (Metaknight)
3. Lain (IC's/DDD)
4. Anti (Metaknight/Snake/DDD)
5. Atomsk (DDD)
5. Ksizzle (Metaknight/Lucario)
7. Anther (Pikachu)
7. ADHD? (Diddy Kong)
9. Candy (Snake)
9. Ninjalink (Diddy Kong)
Notes:
- Mew2King is the only MK only main
- Mew2King lost to Lain's IC's, though Mew2King managed to beat him back, whilst MK's like Dojo didn't manage to beat Lain.
- There were 210 entrants
- 60 ledge Grab rule was in place
- Sebrik and Judge were also in attendance
- Dojo came 2nd at WHOBO but 13th at this
C~Dog
Smash Champion
Lain is my idol <3
Well, I believe Lain's been saying for a while his ICs can destroy the MKs. Admittably ICs aren't a heavily used high tier character. Ally however has vsed Lain in tournaments before.
ICs matchup johns ftw.
Watching brawl+ grand finals was awesome. Chudat used ICs as well, didn't even know/do infinites, used them like you'd see in melee. Was great to watch.
ICs matchup johns ftw.
Watching brawl+ grand finals was awesome. Chudat used ICs as well, didn't even know/do infinites, used them like you'd see in melee. Was great to watch.
S.D
Smash Master
http://www.youtube.com/results?sear...ery=Lain+Ally&search_sort=video_date_uploaded
From what I can see, Lain doesn't have much faith with ICs against Snake. Mostly Dedede.
For your informationzzzzzzzzz.
Vlade
Social Outcast
Can't believe Lain beat M2K. Can't believe Ally won the tourney.
Time to watch these vids.
Time to watch these vids.
swordsaint
Smash Master
If that was true then tournaments prove nothing. The best went and the best won. Simple.
swordsaint - If that was true then tournaments prove nothing. The best went and the best won. Simple.
----
That is one of the worst statements ever. Players are heavily aided by the competency of their characters. It's no wonder high or top tier characters place well in tournaments. Placements do not only account for the person's ability to use a character and fight others, but also how resilient their chosen characters are. If someone masters all of the top tier characters that doesn't completely mean they are the best and won. They just took the easiest route. What you say does not take into consideration any other players that do not use tournament-winning worthy characters, that are still highly skilled in other areas of the game. A person who ranks with a weak character is far more impressionable than someone who tier whores his way to the top. People easily forget this because they are under the assumption everyone enters a tournament with an intention to win using the best means possible. Wrong.
Smash tournament results are not that black-and-white Swordsaint, you've got a long way to go before you can express your opinions without getting your *** handed to you.
Skill is NOT completely measured by tournament placing.
----
That is one of the worst statements ever. Players are heavily aided by the competency of their characters. It's no wonder high or top tier characters place well in tournaments. Placements do not only account for the person's ability to use a character and fight others, but also how resilient their chosen characters are. If someone masters all of the top tier characters that doesn't completely mean they are the best and won. They just took the easiest route. What you say does not take into consideration any other players that do not use tournament-winning worthy characters, that are still highly skilled in other areas of the game. A person who ranks with a weak character is far more impressionable than someone who tier whores his way to the top. People easily forget this because they are under the assumption everyone enters a tournament with an intention to win using the best means possible. Wrong.
Smash tournament results are not that black-and-white Swordsaint, you've got a long way to go before you can express your opinions without getting your *** handed to you.
Skill is NOT completely measured by tournament placing.
M
+9999999999
And thus, Ness became the coolest kid ever. :D
Well, I don't use him for the fact that he's low tier though. =/
Well, I don't use him for the fact that he's low tier though. =/
Browny
Smash Hater
QFT everything cao said, except I cant be bothered actually quoting it (no sig :D)
Also the path to the finals can mean a lot. Quite often people who normally place high will end up fighting like, the 2 of the top 3 seeds and losing to get a considerably lower placing due to the randomness of brackets. And then of course, the determining of seeding is never truly 100% accurate
Also the path to the finals can mean a lot. Quite often people who normally place high will end up fighting like, the 2 of the top 3 seeds and losing to get a considerably lower placing due to the randomness of brackets. And then of course, the determining of seeding is never truly 100% accurate
What if you do a pools only tournament with only one pool?QFT everything cao said, except I cant be bothered actually quoting it (no sig :D)
Also the path to the finals can mean a lot. Quite often people who normally place high will end up fighting like, the 2 of the top 3 seeds and losing to get a considerably lower placing due to the randomness of brackets. And then of course, the determining of seeding is never truly 100% accurate
@topic: Whilst I agree that skill in this game is not completely measurable by tournament placing, I'd have to also ask you what facet of smash skill we are measuring?
I understand that whilst Taj isn't going to win a national tournament with only Mewtwo any time soon, it doesn't mean he isn't exceptionally skilled at the game in general.
But I think what swordsaint is driving at is not 'skill' but success in terms of winning tournaments, something that rides a lot on the skill of the players.
Vlade
Social Outcast
Look at Boss, who's a mario + luigi main (uses luigi more iirc).
He places EXCEPTIONALLY well considering his mains - people like him deserve more respect for their skill like Cao said, because it is a much harder road to the top with lower tiered characters, and definitely should not be judged too harshly by their placings if they place reasonably low.
He places EXCEPTIONALLY well considering his mains - people like him deserve more respect for their skill like Cao said, because it is a much harder road to the top with lower tiered characters, and definitely should not be judged too harshly by their placings if they place reasonably low.
Measuring skill empirically isn't completely clear-cut. Your ability to read, to adapt, to overcome major obstacles, reduce technical errors, win matchups against your favour etc, can all be combined to make an educated and justified judgement on a player's actual skill. This is what I'm measuring and there's no units of measurement for it. I've been in the business of competitive Smash for 6 years now; I can tell who is more well-rounded/skilled than others without having to necessairily judge them through a tournament results page or screen what character they use.
But I think what swordsaint is driving at is not 'skill' but success in terms of winning tournaments, something that rides a lot on the skill of the players.
Vyse - just read this again.
Placement doesn't fully determine skill, never forget that!
If that was true then tournaments prove nothing. The best went and the best won. Simple.
No, it's not that simple.
Toby.
Smash Master
I agree. It's a rather simplistic view to assume that placement is the be all and end all regarding skill. I don't have much to add past that though. The Woxian overlord covered it all pretty well
Ah how time flies by.
I remember back in the day when the NSW smash scene consisted of Jaz and.
Jaz.
We should all know by now, unless you're new, that placement doesn't equal skill.
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
what cao said?
me three
me three
swordsaint
Smash Master
It doesn't matter what character you use, a person won because they were the best with their character. While tiers may exist and you may get more respect for placing higher with a lower tier character, respect isn't what we're measuring now is it?
I'm not saying placement determines EVERYONES skill level, but the top 1 or 2 regardless of the match-ups through-out a tournament are at the top of the game. If you choose to use a lower tier character and lose for it then it's your fault only and...NO JOHNS!!!
It may be an incredibly simplistic and black-and-white view upon the situation, but like I said, if you won a tournament you performed at your best, and stop making excuses about what tier your character is.
I'm not saying placement determines EVERYONES skill level, but the top 1 or 2 regardless of the match-ups through-out a tournament are at the top of the game. If you choose to use a lower tier character and lose for it then it's your fault only and...NO JOHNS!!!
It may be an incredibly simplistic and black-and-white view upon the situation, but like I said, if you won a tournament you performed at your best, and stop making excuses about what tier your character is.
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
lol nobody makes excuses about their tier character, where did that even come from, we're just saying that its harder to win with low tier, hence high placing low tiers can be seen as > then high placing high tiers, not nessacairly but yeah, and then there's other things like seeding, brackets, how someone was feeling that day (being tired makes you play like ****) and other stuff that make an impact, of course no many people say that they lost cause of these things because they dont like to make excuses, but tourney winnings arnt the be all and end all.
here's an example, at ted's tourney kulla came like 3rd or 4th, if he had actually cared and tried he would have ***** everyone and came first. so he is the best, but he didnt come first, see how that doesnt work by your logic?
here's an example, at ted's tourney kulla came like 3rd or 4th, if he had actually cared and tried he would have ***** everyone and came first. so he is the best, but he didnt come first, see how that doesnt work by your logic?
swordsaint
Smash Master
He didn't care and didn't try? Don't give me such bull****. That's the worst example ever and doesn't prove anything at all. What I'm getting at, is that whoever wins the tournament was the best ON THE DAY. Maybe if someone is having a bad day they'll play worse, sure but that's just a lack of consistency in their skill and shows a little more consistency and effort being put in by their opponent.
By your logic, we could say Scar who uses Captain Falcon is really the best at Melee but because he doesn't use Fox he loses. That's not very plausible now is it? Sounds like something Fake Scar would say if you ask me...
By your logic, we could say Scar who uses Captain Falcon is really the best at Melee but because he doesn't use Fox he loses. That's not very plausible now is it? Sounds like something Fake Scar would say if you ask me...
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
lolol seriously though, kulla was like the best and then just turned around and quit brawl and went back to melee.
but yeah, being the best on the day and skill are two different things, stop mixing your arguements up.
and using my logic you wouldnt reach said conclusion, read it again.
edit- also why would ilag say that, he's a metaknight main after all.
but yeah, being the best on the day and skill are two different things, stop mixing your arguements up.
and using my logic you wouldnt reach said conclusion, read it again.
edit- also why would ilag say that, he's a metaknight main after all.
swordsaint
Smash Master
You obviously don't know Scar very well. He makes excuses for other people who use lower tier characters just as much as himself when he picks someone lower on the tier list.
Read Cao's stuff again. He explicitly stated that the tiers make an adverse effect on the results and while that may true, in the end the best player is the person with the most tournament wins, and the best on the day will win the tournament. Who they use doesn't matter because they're free to use who they will and whatever techniques/strategies are at their disposal.
Again I'll bring you back to Cao's statements about what HE THINKS is a more skilled player.
Your ability to read, to adapt, to overcome major obstacles, reduce technical errors, win matchups against your favour etc, can all be combined to make an educated and justified judgement on a player's actual skill.
Does this mean a player is more skilled? That's your opinion, and I disagree. Having more skill with a single character and being able to cover your bad match-ups are just being skilled with your character specifically. If you're not winning though, what does it matter how much you can cover the lesser areas of your character?
Read Cao's stuff again. He explicitly stated that the tiers make an adverse effect on the results and while that may true, in the end the best player is the person with the most tournament wins, and the best on the day will win the tournament. Who they use doesn't matter because they're free to use who they will and whatever techniques/strategies are at their disposal.
Again I'll bring you back to Cao's statements about what HE THINKS is a more skilled player.
Your ability to read, to adapt, to overcome major obstacles, reduce technical errors, win matchups against your favour etc, can all be combined to make an educated and justified judgement on a player's actual skill.
Does this mean a player is more skilled? That's your opinion, and I disagree. Having more skill with a single character and being able to cover your bad match-ups are just being skilled with your character specifically. If you're not winning though, what does it matter how much you can cover the lesser areas of your character?
luke_atyeo
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 10, 2008
- Messages
- 7,215
a convincing arguement and I agrree somewhat but it still doesnt change the fact that mainging low tier is harder therefore if you place high with low tier you are better (generalisation)
Ah, that makes things a bit more clear to me.
In that case, yeah, judging skill in this game works a lot like that.
Some people are just rediculously skilled at this game. Like Kas (who I liken to Azen), who seems to brim with a natural talent.
Yeah, I understand it now.
When you've got a pool of highly talented players. it's the ones that take every advantage they can get (IE top tier character picks) who will win.
Actually it reminds me of something NinjaLink wrote about his days maning Roy. Even though everyone wanted him to main someone like Marth instead so he could do better in tournaments, he just kept refusing to do so, and he said because of that, he had to work hard to cover a lot of Roy's short comings.
Now that he plays higher tiered characters more regularly in Brawl he sees much more success than he did before (in terms of winning tournaments).
Darkwing SykeDuk
Smash Dankist
I remember I won a tourney with doc and g&w XD
I remember SQUAT 1 Finals being Josh's DK vs Mos' Mario/Link.
Darkwing SykeDuk
Smash Dankist
After he beat me with sheik..