General Discussion & Character Rankings

[Toby.]

im pretty sure pokemon trainer was sitting at fourth for a while too...

pokemon trainer has never been even close to fourth, unfortunately.

bad character.

 

[lain]

*Appears in puff of

Spoiler

weed

smoke*

I'm tired of people saying M2K dominated me in loser's finals. Sure it was 3-0, but EVERY game was last stock last hit. Now imagine being on last stock vs Climbers and there ya go.

99% of IC players are bad. Meep and I have single (double? quadruple?!) handedly pulled IC's from like middle of the tier list, to 4th.

The new desync thing looks interesting. However, finding truly useful applications will be the test.

 

[Attila_]

soz lain, as much as i love you, i dont think you ever looked like you were going to win the second set. im not saying you played badly by any stretch of the imagination, but m2k simply gayed you, and there's very little anyone can really do about it (imo). the first set was the reason i started using ice climbers though. and i came third at the last tourny i used them at

pretty sure theyre still 11th on the tier list, but 4th on rankings atm. but like i said, pt was up there for a while too; these things change fairly regularly (with the exception of mk and snake of course).

that being said, id love for you to prove me wrong and pwn a really gay mk. there is actually nothing i agree more, and god knows i cant do it.

 

[Ant1]

If u want to pwn a really gay mk, then lain u should go beat plairnkk.
And if u have done it already go do it again lol.

IC's deserve to be higher on all the lists.
He's like troll warlord or faceless void in dota. Permabash is similar to chaingrabbing. And anything with permabash/chaingrab gayness has to be the best!
Anyone who's played dota be4 troll nerf knows what im talking about.

 

[Vyse]

Don't worry Lain, I remember the matches well

 

[EverAlert]

I remember watching Lain **** vs Catnip at Genesis.

I held up my Melee pool just to watch that. With permission of course.

 

[Toby.]

pretty sure theyre still 11th on the tier list, but 4th on rankings atm. but like i said, pt was up there for a while too; these things change fairly regularly (with the exception of mk and snake of course).

Highest PT ever got was 14th. PT moving up to 14th is pretty different to ice climbers moving up to 4th. IMO its pretty obvious that icies have the tools to be extremely good. I don't see how them being hard to use changes that at all

 

[lain]

After beating Canip I pulled the most ridiculous stunt ever vs Sean (best in Norcal). I grabbed him last stock, stood up and turned around and was gonna release the charging usmash, but he broke out and the room went from "OMFG LAINNN" to "BWAGHHHHHHHHH HOLY SHIETTTTTTTTT".

I still won, but the **** was just ridiculous lol.

However true the rankings change, IC's have CONSISTENTLY risen ever since Meep and I started ******.

And also, M2K gimped me, but that's what MK does to win that matchup. He 0'deaths nana, I 0-death him with grabs.

IC being hard to use has nothing to do with how good a character is. It's how the top players are playing them, and the placings they get.

 

[Vyse]

Dang, all this Ice Climbers discussion has got me sitting in training mode doing IC's 0-Death chain grab to upsmash on MK for the lolz.

 

[lain]

If u want to pwn a really gay mk, then lain u should go beat plairnkk.

I don't believe you're familiar with a term we have here in MI called "Bowyerying".

 

[luke_atyeo]

perhaps you should share your wisdom with us o great patriarch of ice,
what is bowyerying?

 

[Splice]

Isnt Bowyer that MK main that plays really gay and times out matches even in friendlies? im sure ive seen a vid of his.

this is bowyers... highlight video [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zPMhGvCyVg]

 

[Toby.]

You accidentally kept the bracket on the end of the link

Proper link is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zPMhGvCyVg

 

[Splice]

LOL its funny toby coz i put the bracket at the end of the link ON PURPOSE after copying and pasting coz i wanted it to stand out, as you can tell by the other bracket at the start of the link lol.

Wont try to be fancy again. <.<

Good video though. I like how the countdown at the end is timed perfectly between both videos.

 

[Jupz]

yeah i love that video

 

[I LAG]

OMFG i need to learn more from that guy

 

[Force Frontal by Chicken]

This is Bowyer...

I don't believe you're familiar with a term we have here in MI called "Bowyerying".

<3 Lain... next time your over just bring your laptop over instead of going home, cause we're both gonna be awake...

Good video though. I like how the countdown at the end is timed perfectly between both videos.

yeah i love that video

Thanks!

OMFG i need to learn more from that guy

hahaha, thanks to you too.

Imo playing like that is a really good way to learn how to play the game right but when you start getting better and learn matchups, this strategy should evolve into a more punishing strategy. Playing like this teaches you how to avoid getting hit. Then once you get better at reading people and punishing everything that you can, you play defensive for much shorter intervals, punish more actions, follow up more attacks, start using stage control and pressure, then the games suddenly become a couple minutes long... though MK has a god awful time approaching some characters if they're played defensively and correctly... such as IC's and Pika...

 

[I LAG]

k thanks.
would i used that playstyle in the falco match up?
or in the snake?
or wario?
can u give me a list plz?

 

[Force Frontal by Chicken]

Pika is very difficult to approach as MK and it's difficult to follow up moves against so I'd camp against a really good one.

IC's are scary to approach but once you learn the matchup, you can hit them once and keep hitting them but it's very difficult to do against them because one **** up is death and there's two of them to keep track of.

Snake is hard to approach but once you get them in the air, you can keep them up there a long as time and really **** them up if you do it right.

Wario is a ***** and you cant really approach him but tornado is really really good and then use uairs to keep him in the air.

G&W when played campy can be a ***** to approach as well but if you get him in the air you can use lots of grabs when he lands and utilt his key and it can make it hard for him. G&W also can't approach MK at all if you know how to shut down all his approaches so camping him is a viable strategy.

Diddy Kong can be a ***** to fight because of bananas and it's hard to learn how to fight against but once you do you don't need to camp other than in select situations.

Falco... I'm not exactly sure how to fight them because I've never played a good one but people have had success air camping him. But I think you can combo him to 60ish if you get a grab on him at low percents and you know how to read his responses right.

 

[Vyse]

Just watching 'Patience' now.
I quite like it. lol.

EDIT: Finished. That ending was funny xD

I liked the music a lot and the editing.
The MK was homo, but quality homo, if that makes sense <3

 

[Shaya]

Hi Bowyer...

Glad to see you're back?

<3

 

[meepxzero]

I don't believe you're familiar with a term we have here in MI called "Bowyerying".

makes this guy feel any better i made plank quit brawl because i made him hate ic so much. I wish he didnt quit cuz he was actually a challenged compared to many mks in md/va minus neo and chus.

 

[Attila_]

i think this would make me angry if it happened to me. meep, please make him quit too before any aussies start copying... i dont wanna have to deal with such a troublesome playstyle and its a really gay way of playing the game...

 

[C~Dog]

i think this would make me angry if it happened to me. meep, please make him quit too before any aussies start copying... i dont wanna have to deal with such a troublesome playstyle and its a really gay way of playing the game...

Isn't my kirby gay enough for your ics yet?

Granted, i do need to get better, but surely the bair camping gayness is satisfactory? xD

 

[EverAlert]

i think this would make me angry if it happened to me. meep, please make him quit too before any aussies start copying... i dont wanna have to deal with such a troublesome playstyle and its a really gay way of playing the game...

****, I was gonna start doing this too (Bowyer's approach to learning MK really makes sense to me), I guess you're really gonna hate me before we even get to the tourney this weekend. :<

 

[Splice]

Yeah today i tried to play like Bowyer!
I failed miserably today trying it Vs Afropony, but i learnt a fair bit.
Its real fun too!

Now that Bowyer has explained it, it doesnt seem so bad to me.

@Connor: Not enough Kirbycide.

 

[C~Dog]

I do get some kirbycides, tho mostly when i try to do it in tourney matches someone manages to stick their foot it my mouth and kill me =(

 

[Ant1]

lol in smash 64 i kirbycided Jamage by f-throwing!
We were so close to the edge, kirby missed the edge when flying down and we both died lol.

 

[Force Frontal by Chicken]

****, I was gonna start doing this too (Bowyer's approach to learning MK really makes sense to me), I guess you're really gonna hate me before we even get to the tourney this weekend. :<

Yeah today i tried to play like Bowyer!
I failed miserably today trying it Vs Afropony, but i learnt a fair bit.
Its real fun too!

Now that Bowyer has explained it, it doesnt seem so bad to me.

@Connor: Not enough Kirbycide.

XD playing like that is not at all easy. It takes a lot of patience, very good spacing, and good reflexes to avoid **** and punish them.

Just remember that everything is punishable if you put yourself in the right position and that you should punish every action that you're in a position to do so.

But start slow. If you're unsure of how to punish something, don't just run in there. Focus on not getting hit first, and test out different ways to punish different actions until you find the best way to do so.

And there is a best way to punish every action in every situation but they require strict timing and they change a lot as the metagame progresses. Always try to think of new and creative ways to do things.

To put more emphasis, timing is everything when you're reacting and punishing their moves. And you have more time to react to things than you realize. For instance, when most characters land on the ground, are in a tiny amount of lag that you can't punish, but are facing away from you, you may not be able to hit them, but they can't just hit you with something crazy fast so don't just freak out and spot dodge or roll because it could get you hit and it will make it so you're in a position where you can't read them.

But remember that when you act on reaction and do actions only when they are going to hit, it doesn't matter if you're predictable cause they're gonna get hit anyways. But watch out for them to switch things up and learn how to deal with your **** because things that were once good can later be bad.

And it's going to take a lot of time before you'll be able to evolve it into a less campy, better play style, but if you're not eventually getting less and less campy and punishing more and more things, you're not learning. Which probably means you're putting emphasis on the wrong things.

 

[Vyse]

Bowyer, what other characters are effective at this style? Wario?

I used to play this way with Marth, and it worked wonders for me. I remember reading threads by MookieRah and Emblem Lord and deciding that I needed to learn to play in this style a long time ago, but I find that it's hard to apply to a character like Diddy.

Sometimes I think I'm more cut out to play a character like Marth/Dedede even though I've invested so much time into Diddy.

 

[Force Frontal by Chicken]

Bowyer, what other characters are effective at this style? Wario?

I used to play this way with Marth, and it worked wonders for me. I remember reading threads by MookieRah and Emblem Lord and deciding that I needed to learn to play in this style a long time ago, but I find that it's hard to apply to a character like Diddy.

Sometimes I think I'm more cut out to play a character like Marth/Dedede even though I've invested so much time into Diddy.

The style that I play works the best with MK, Fox, and Pika. They're all small and fast which makes them hard to hit, lets them run away quickly, lets them punish small holes that most characters can't punish, and you really can't corner them to the edge of the stage cause it's so hard to prevent them from getting around you. But all three have difficulty approaching (including MK in many matchups) so you're going to have to play a game heavily revolving around punishing and follow ups which you are going to need very good reflexes to do well. (I think fox is highly underrated and will eventually move up to at least the A tier once some people actually get good at him, but these three characters are three of the hardest characters to play at a high competitive level but they're the ones I use because I understand how to play that style the best.) IC's would probably also fall into this category to a large degree but controlling two characters makes it more complicated.

Wario and G&W can also camp crazy well but it's a little bit different. They're basically the hardest characters in the game to approach because they're so maneuverable in the air and G&W has some high priority moves. (I wouldn't recommend picking up G&W though because he can have a hell of a hard time landing kill moves in many matchups and he can't approach well against a lot of good characters.) With these characters, you're going to be jumping around more and punishing from the air instead. Learning how to avoid attacks and punish moves with these two characters are quite different than the characters listed in the above paragraph.

Marth and DDD I feel can do a decent amount of camping, but it's more of a high pressure camp in their face type of thing and they're trying to push the opponent to the edge of the stage where they are forced to try to do something or try to get around you. Though you're obviously trying to do that with other characters as well but I think it's a little different. (But I wouldn't play DDD because I don't think he's that great of a character and will probably eventually fall in the tier list).

Olimar can also camp like a little ***** but he gets ****ed by gimps.

If you're going to play multiple characters, I would recommend playing two characters that share a lot of similarities in their play styles. It's incredibly hard to pick up a new play style and if you understand one more than others and like doing that style, I would recommend playing a character that fits into that. Granted you can play any character using many different styles and still have success but each character is more inclined to do well using a specific type of style... and if you want to camp, I wouldn't play diddy

But the metagame has just recently started to evolve into brawl's actual legit metagame and people are just now starting to really get around camping except for against the characters listed above to a large extent.

 

[C~Dog]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMSfwHiCjmI

=D

 

[tibs7]

moar brokeness to add to already broken IC's ughhh -_-'

 

[C~Dog]

So i hear Seibrik has a new AT that, among other things, is going to make Ganon S tier. Discuss.

 

[Browny]

Are you sure about that tactic not working well with diddy Vyse? I've seen what this full blown 'refuse to approach unless I have a safe opening and get away option' looks like, and its not pretty Using it yourself makes people want to kill you lol.

 

[Shaya]

Diddy is one of the gayest campers in the game.

Fact.

 

[typh]

Shaya!!!!!!!!!

 

[Toby.]

Yeah its pretty meh that people are so excited to see this style of bowyers. Firstly it's been around for ages, and secondly all it does is encourage everyone to choose MK. Great.

edit: oh****itstyph

 

[Shaya]

Typhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Vyse]

Typh was the first person to reply to me in my first thread on smashboards. True Fact.
Then Gideon closed it.



Yeah, It's the way I play Diddy, but I'm trying to change it.