General Discussion & Character Rankings

[tibs7]

yeah apparently i play completely different to you vyse lol, i havent seen you play yet....are there any matches of you up on youtube or something?

 

[Vyse]

Other than me getting stomped by CO18, not really.
I'll annoy Booker to get my matches with SK92's Lucas and Falco up.

Maybe I'll record a few matches soon.

 

[tibs7]

oooo sk92's falco intrigues me greatly =D and co18 ofcourse

can you please upload them booker =)

 

[Vyse]

I need to come to Rocky so we can sit in a corner and play dittos all day. Then I'll steal all of your knowledge and come back to Queensland with it.

 

[typh]

Vyyyyyyyyyse!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Force Frontal by Chicken]

Yeah its pretty meh that people are so excited to see this style of bowyers. Firstly it's been around for ages, and secondly all it does is encourage everyone to choose MK. Great.

You're missing a pretty big point here... the point of playing like me isn't to time **** out or be gay, it's to actually learn how to play the game right and evolve your game into a style that really doesn't involve much running away or long term camping... and anyway...
1. MK's not broke
2. Only a handful of people are actually capable of playing him at a crazy good level
3. By complaining about MK, you're only giving yourself an excuse for why you can't beat them which will prevent you from ever learning how to fight them.
4. Seriously, 99% of the MK's out there aren't very good. Judge and dingdong are the only MK's in the US Midwest that I don't think I can beat using Fox or ROB. I always go about even with ding and Judge is better than me so no johns.

 

[tibs7]

dude mk IS broke, its not complaining, its fact.

 

[Force Frontal by Chicken]

dude mk IS broke, its not complaining, its fact.

But broke in a very beatable way... Here's also a fact. Most good people from Michigan (one of the top states in the US and without question the best state in the Midwest) complain about the brokeness of snake and don't complain about MK at all. Not saying he's better, but he's more ******** and he's much easier to play at a decently high level. It's ****ing hard being crazy good with MK and I have a lot of respect for anyone who is. And those people would still **** using other characters to... But here's a hint. If you're not at a really high level already and you want to play the character that will help you place the highest, then play snake cause he's kind of ********.

 

[Nixernator]

But broke in a very beatable way... Here's also a fact. Most good people from Michigan (one of the top states in the US and without question the best state in the Midwest) complain about the brokeness of snake and don't complain about MK at all. Not saying he's better, but he's more ******** and he's much easier to play at a decently high level... So hint, if you're not at a really high level already and you want to play the character that will help you place the highest, then play snake.

Lol thats pretty much what I did/am doing

 

[luke_atyeo]

no disrespect dude but its the other way round, snake is much harder to play at a high level, why do you think there are at least 3 top 8 meta's for every top 8 snake (insert rest of pointless arguement here) etc etc...

 

[tibs7]

Bowyer: anther is so much better than judge yet he loses, judge is good but not that good. MK being broken is not just the no lag factor on dsmash or the quick aerials and gimps, but the ok players are able to beat the good players with him which just makes him that much more gay/broke.

meh w/e i just put in my 2 cents

EDIT: im with luke on this

 

[I LAG]

luke try maining mk and play a snake main and then u will be like
WTF snakes GAY
he is soooooooooooooo easy to use
snake > mk

 

[Force Frontal by Chicken]

no disrespect dude but its the other way round, snake is much harder to play at a high level, why do you think there are at least 3 top 8 meta's for every top 8 snake (insert rest of pointless arguement here) etc etc...

It's 3 to 1 because more good people play MK. You're argument is horrible, lol.

Bowyer: anther is so much better than judge yet he loses, judge is good but not that good. MK being broken is not just the no lag factor on dsmash or the quick aerials and gimps, but the ok players are able to beat the good players with him which just makes him that much more gay/broke.

meh w/e i just put in my 2 cents

EDIT: im with luke on this

Whoa, that is not true. They're really close in skill and M2K was just here and said he thinks Pika v MK feels completely even. And MK's moves are much more punishable than you realize. Try spamming downsmash against a good player over here. You're gonna get wrecked. And MK's fair and bair aren't very good, and if MK dairs anywhere above you within a FH away from you but doesn't hit you, you can jump in there and hit him in his lag, granted you aren't playing a very slow character (I'm talking about followups, if they just throw out a dair).

 

[Shaya]

Who cares about any other move MK has other than first/second hit of ftilt and tornado.

:3

People in Australia dont know -why- MK is "broke".
But he's not... unbeatable by any means.

 

[Sieg]

I'm pretty sure he's broke because his moves have a high priority and are hard to counter.

 

[Toby.]

You're missing a pretty big point here... the point of playing like me isn't to time **** out or be gay, it's to actually learn how to play the game right and evolve your game into a style that really doesn't involve much running away or long term camping... and anyway...
1. MK's not broke
2. Only a handful of people are actually capable of playing him at a crazy good level
3. By complaining about MK, you're only giving yourself an excuse for why you can't beat them which will prevent you from ever learning how to fight them.
4. Seriously, 99% of the MK's out there aren't very good. Judge and dingdong are the only MK's in the US Midwest that I don't think I can beat using Fox or ROB. I always go about even with ding and Judge is better than me so no johns.

...

I wasn't missing your point at all. I said this perspective has been around for ages, and it has. I didn't see why people were being amazed by your video and ideas when from the beginning people have talked about brawl in terms of options, positioning and punishment.

And we know MK being good isn't about dsmash. lol. Try transcended priority, massive range, speed and extreme gimping ability. One of the best dash attacks, one of the best dash grabs, a 2 frame neutral air that does a crazy amounts of damage...

And ASIDE from this I NEVER said MK is broken. I don't like metaknight. He is easy to use and can camp the **** out of most characters and win EASILY. I find this boring.

My post was simply stating that I don't like the idea of more people using metaknight. Don't assume I don't understand just because I don't like scrubs picking up MK for an easy win.

 

[tedeth]

Yeah Toby has no issue with the MK matchup. His Squirtle stomps MKs.

 

[Force Frontal by Chicken]

...

I wasn't missing your point at all. I said this perspective has been around for ages, and it has. I didn't see why people were being amazed by your video and ideas when from the beginning people have talked about brawl in terms of options, positioning and punishment.

And we know MK being good isn't about dsmash. lol. Try transcended priority, massive range, speed and extreme gimping ability. One of the best dash attacks, one of the best dash grabs, a 2 frame neutral air that does a crazy amounts of damage...

And ASIDE from this I NEVER said MK is broken. I don't like metaknight. He is easy to use and can camp the **** out of most characters and win EASILY. I find this boring.

My post was simply stating that I don't like the idea of more people using metaknight. Don't assume I don't understand just because I don't like scrubs picking up MK for an easy win.

I'm sorry, but you're looking at a really low level of play if you think MK wins easily and is easy to use... and you try playing like how I do. You won't have much success against people like Lain and Anther.

People have been talking about smash as a game of options, positioning, and punishment since melee, but that doesn't mean people understand what it all means or know of a way that they can learn how that stuff actually works. Do you know how hard this game is to play? Most people play year after year and they rarely improve. I'm sorry if I've been telling people a way to play that can actually teach you have to play the game half way decently but whatever, my advice isn't for everyone so if you want to continue being a scrub, it's your call.

 

[Vyse]

People have been talking about smash as a game of options, positioning, and punishment since melee, but that doesn't mean people understand what it all means or know of a way that they can learn how that stuff actually works. Do you know how hard this game is to play? Most people play year after year and they rarely improve.

I strongly agree with this.

 

[I LAG]

what mks does toby play against?

i think bowyer also forgot to mention that m2k said mk vs wolf is 10/90 wolf advantage because wolf has a blaster.

 

[Toby.]

I've played against havok, dojo and judge. But I guess I'm just a random scrub who's never even seen high level play.

Look bowyer. I never had a problem with you telling people how to play smart. I also AGREE with the fundamentals behind what you're doing. Once again I only had a problem because a) people were thinking that this is revolutionary and new, and b) because I didn't feel like playing more scrubs mk's who would attempt to do this and never learn from it anyway.

I know all the top metaknight players don't prance around winning grand finals easily. I also understand that there are other characters that dominate. You mentioned snake as an example. Despite this, the point I was trying to make is that its obvious that a top level metaknight player, who understands that their main has the tool to punish in almost any situation, will have a much easier time than someone playing a character who doesn't always have a safe option. If you are almost always safe, you are at a giant advantage. Hello planking. Metaknight dictates the flow of the match far better than most. This is what I meant by ease of use.

Am I saying that mk players don't have to bother concentrating or trying at high levels of play? No.

Am I saying that metaknight is unstoppable or even close to it? No.

Am I saying that I find it annoying that scrubs will turn to metaknight because of the 'revelation' they've just had about MK and bowyering? Yes. THEY will be the ones finding everything far, far easier. And just because they won't be seeing grand finals in major tournaments, it doesn't mean I'm not allowed to think that noobs trying for an easy win is stupid.

Please understand that I agree with what you're doing. But the idea that so many people are too dumb to already be thinking about the game in terms of their options just annoys me. I'm sorry. The fact that many will now pick up MK simply to learn such a fundamental concept is also annoying, because it's totally unecessary.

I still agree with your theory, just don't bother calling me a scrub to try and defend something that isn't being attacked.

 

[Force Frontal by Chicken]

I strongly agree with this.

i think bowyer also forgot to mention that m2k said mk vs wolf is 10/90 wolf advantage because wolf has a blaster.

lol because you obviously still believe he thinks that . Old statement is old.

I've played against havok, dojo and judge. But I guess I'm just a random scrub lolol

ha, I got ahead of myself, sorry...

I've your argument and... fair enough... though I really think this is a great way to learn so I'm going to keep helping people and talk about it if people want to listen.

And going about learning like this works with other characters too... You just don't want to be running so far away while you're doing it.

 

[Toby.]

I got pretty rude

I honestly think you're doing a good thing dude. I just don't like the idea of scrubs trying to get an easy win by timing the match out and running away. I know your style is more than that, its just that its sort of what I'm expecting people to do.

Don't let me pessimism stop you haha

 

[Force Frontal by Chicken]

I got pretty rude

I got a little preemptively defensive as well. No harm dude. And hopefully I don't create too many new MK scrubs, because that's not exactly going to do anyone good and everyone should know that simply picking up MK isn't going to suddenly get them wins against people better than them... and everyone knows how to fight against MK now so it's going to be very difficult to try to pick up the character.

<3 thread name, lol...

You guys have an interesting character tourney placings order. What do you guys think about Wolf? Do you think he's good (serious question because different regions miss different things about characters) or do you just have a wolf player who consistently places high because he's good at the game?

Also, I hear that you guys don't know about red Solo cups or beer pong, and instead of using the term "**** buddies" you say "**** mates"... is this true? lol

 

[tedeth]

Good old wolf. Let me give you the rundown on how wolf is so good here compared to over there.

1) We have like 2 good MK players, neither of whome are at AMAZING standard (sorry MK players) and then we have ultraa scrubs like ILag who are like "Wolf has an advantage over MK because I can't perfect shield and try to tornado into everything"

2) We have like 0 Dedede mains (Shaya plays him a bit). This is a matchup that ***** wolf super hard.

3) Wolf is alot better than people give him credit for. Go to the wolf boards, read alot of the stupidity that is spouted there. The lack of half decent players that actually put effort into wolf makes me cry. I am of the honest opinon that his metagame is not only not improving, but it's going backwards. He is really underplayed by good players.

4) Most wolf players are 13 yr old noobs who think they can recover into an MK nair and be perfectly fine.

5) See number 4 and multiply it by 10.


EDIT: Short answer, wolf isn't that great. By no stretch of the imagination is he top tier, but he deservs more credit than he gets.

 

[Toby.]

Haha well I've never heard the term "**** mates". At least in my part of Australia its "**** buddies". I also know about beer pong

imo wolf has a lot of good qualities...he's fairly heavy, has invincibility on frames 1-5 of his reflector (and the hitbox afterwards helps a lot too), really nice aerial speed and control, and a great bair. The large hitbox and high speed of his uair allows for some pretty effective juggle traps as well. Generally speaking his ground game is fast and decently ranged, and his 4 frame dsmash and 3 frame jab (with a first jab repetition speed similar to snakes) gives him a solid way of punishing landing lag.

Given that his side b recovery can be altered significantly in a similar way to falco, I think that with proper DI wolf shouldn't have nearly as much trouble as people suggest. He can also avoid being trapped on the ledge through scarring and its variants. Although scarring is hardly unpunishable, given that it allows wolf to have an extra 3 options on the ledge I think its pretty notable.

On the other hand moves like MK's dair still put wolf in a really bad position off stage, and a smart player can cover his recovery options pretty well since he lacks any way of stalling the edge guarder out.

Meh. I think wolf is ok, but I don't know if he should be higher on the tier list or not. Dedede is a big problem.

In Australia wolf is ranked high because we have one player who places consistently well with him. But seeing as though almost no one edge guards him (either because they are too lazy/bad or because he recovers too well) its tough to say whether his placement indicates that wolf is particularly good or not.

That's my $0.02 anyway

 

[Force Frontal by Chicken]

tedeth: hahaha, too good...

I play with Omniswell quite a bit and he's a really good wolf player so I agree with ya that wolf's metagame is underdeveloped. But yeah, many characters are ranked lower or higher than their potential simply because nobody good plays them or a lot of good people play them. For instance, I honestly believe fox has the potential to be in the top 6 characters, but not enough good people play him so his metagame sucks.

But here's my input on the tier list if anyone's interested:

In the near or far future, I think Diddy will drop a little, DDD will drop a lot, G&W will drop a little, Pika will move up, IC's will move up, Toon Link and Pit will probably move up a little, DK down, Fox will move way up, Wolf up a little, Jiggs up a little, and CF will move to mid tier ish.

Haha well I've never heard the term "**** mates". At least in my part of Australia its "**** buddies". I also know about beer pong

haha, oh my friend just got back from Australia and said that people didn't know about that stuff. She was living in Sydney... lol, I'll have to investigate to see if she was lying XD

 

[tedeth]

Yeah Omniswell is pretty rad.

 

[Splice]

I agree with Bowyer on tier list, especially Diddy, Jiggs, GaW and DDD part.

IMO GaW will be in B tier by the end of the year.
Bowyer i want to learn just a basic of your style, but with GaW.

After i take a stock off someone, i want to take on a more defensive-aggresive style like you to rack up damage so when i lose my stock i've already got them to 60%, instead of doing 17% and getting KO'd.

Good Idea? Feedback?

P.S it's funny with Wolf coz a lot of people think he cant recover from anything and often i'll survive from midway under the stage and people get all amazed. Wolf deserves more credit.

 

[Toby.]

haha, oh my friend just got back from Australia and said that people didn't know about that stuff. She was living in Sydney... lol, I'll have to investigate to see if she was lying XD

Chances are she's telling the truth. Whilst I don't say **** mates I know a lot of stereotypically australian people who would

And I'd only heard of beer pong from an american movie. I've never seen it played in australia.

 

[Browny]

CF will move to mid tier ish.

ok now before i post a lame troll answer to do this I REALLY want to know your reasoning behind this. none of this 'unexplored metagame' unquantifiable theorycraft, traits that he has that are better than the bottom half of the current tier list and thus warrant a place above them.

 

[tedeth]

Bowyer correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Omniswell play Wolf, Wario and ICs?

 

[Force Frontal by Chicken]

Bowyer i want to learn just a basic of your style, but with GaW.

After i take a stock off someone, i want to take on a more defensive-aggresive style like you to rack up damage so when i lose my stock i've already got them to 60%, instead of doing 17% and getting KO'd.

Good Idea? Feedback?

Not a bad idea. A G&W who is running away all the time is ****ing insane hard to hit but at the same time, your opponent probably isn't going to give you many chances to hit them, so doing it while you have a stock lead will be beneficial because they are forced to try to get inside your **** and you can then react to whatever they do.

Just remember that while you're playing to not get hit then:
1. Only hit with the tip of the turtle cause they can smash DI out and hit you every time if they know how to do it right.
2. Don't throw out many smashes. It'll only give them a chance to hit you. Instead do more pokes and focus on giving them more percent because the kill will eventually come, even if it is at 150 or 200%... just make sure you don't get hit.
3. Learn to follow up attacks properly without risking getting hit. Hit them in the air, then pause for a moment, see what they, and then react. Don't just rush in while trying to follow up attacks.
4. You know the spacing of your moves, so if they're outside that range, don't try to hit them with that move because it'll wiff and they could hit you

...if you want to be incredibly gay with G&W and piss a lot of people off, play on battlefield and jump around on the platforms because most characters won't be able to hit you XD... I probably shouldn't have posted that XD

P.S it's funny with Wolf coz a lot of people think he cant recover from anything and often i'll survive from midway under the stage and people get all amazed. Wolf deserves more credit.

A lot of characters have better recoveries than people realize. I don't know wolf that well but in the case of fox, most people think he has a bad or gimpable recovery but in reality, his is crazy good and he's one of the hardest characters to edge guard. Wario and sometimes MK are the only characters that can really get fox off the stage in a way that he can be gimped. With the shine to slow momentum, his fast fast fall, and fair that gives him height, and a side b that if canceled right can't be punished, he's got a crazy good recovery. Wolf is different than fox, but the point is that if you think outside the box and wait to recover until your opponent is in a position that he can't punish you, a lot of recoveries suddenly become really good.

Chances are she's telling the truth. Whilst I don't say **** mates I know a lot of stereotypically australian people who would

And I'd only heard of beer pong from an american movie. I've never seen it played in australia.

Ah, that makes sense then. You should play beer pong! It's pretty fun... though I hear your disposable cups are smaller than the ones we have here.

ok now before i post a lame troll answer to do this I REALLY want to know your reasoning behind this. none of this 'unexplored metagame' unquantifiable theorycraft, traits that he has that are better than the bottom half of the current tier list and thus warrant a place above them.

I think that with CF's speed, he can punish and follow up a lot more moves than people realize. Fast characters usually start low on the tier lists because they're weaker and its harder to just pick up and use them. I think CF is a similar case. I also think that he can punish more moves with falcon knee than people realize too. People just need to rethink about their positioning with him.

Bowyer correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Omniswell play Wolf, Wario and ICs?

Ya, he's a Wario main but his Wolf and IC's are pretty good though I haven't really seen him use them much as of recent.

 

[Nixernator]

ok now before i post a lame troll answer to do this I REALLY want to know your reasoning behind this. none of this 'unexplored metagame' unquantifiable theorycraft, traits that he has that are better than the bottom half of the current tier list and thus warrant a place above them.

Pretend your Darkrain Lol.
I did it to connor and I knee>Faclon punch'd him. Falcon is good if you play fast, make sure you fastfall every aerial properly and he rewards you really well for reading right.

 

[Force Frontal by Chicken]

Pretend your Darkrain Lol.
I did it to connor and I knee>Faclon punch'd him. Falcon is good if you play fast, make sure you fastfall every aerial properly and he rewards you really well for reading right.

It's not so much about playing fast, but more about punishing small holes using your speed. It's better to be in a position or doing an action that allows you to immediately use the punishing action that you hope to hit.

For instance, just stuff like, when a snake does the 1st ftilt and you're near him but just outside his range, you can start a dash away, then wait for the 2nd ftilt and if he uses it, then immediately dash back in with your dash dance and dash attack or grab. When you're doing this type of stuff, you need to know what they could do and how you're going to immediately react to it, so put yourself in a position to do so and you basically want to have your hands ready, kind of twitchy ready if you will, and at the moment they act, you need to just snap into action.

 

[Force Frontal by Chicken]

Here's one of the most important pieces of advice I can give anyone:

If you're standing in front of your opponent doing nothing and they spot dodge, you should grab or hit them out of it every single time. If you're on the ground doing nothing and your opponent air dodges into the ground near you, grab them or hit them every single time.

It seems so simple and obvious, but most people never really understand this and I think after you do, then over time, you will start to understand more and more about how to play the game right.

 

[luke_atyeo]

It's 3 to 1 because more good people play MK. You're argument is horrible, lol.

I wouldnt say my arguemnt is horrible, I have evidence to support it.
if snake is so easy and mk is so hard then it would make sense that only a few mk's would make it to top 8 or even top 16 but alot of mk's make it up there because mk is a really good character and is easier to use when compared to other characters (that doesnt make him easy in high level play, it just makes him easier, difference)

I, like toby, came to america and stayed with havok for about 2 weeks and went to genesis and evo and thats how I feel.

snake is pretty broken sure, but he has bad matchups and expolitable weakness, something that metaknight does not.

1 reason why snake is harder is that, unlike metaknight, snake can be counterpicked (shakes fist at olimar)

I'm sorry, but you're looking at a really low level of play if you think MK wins easily and is easy to use... and you try playing like how I do. You won't have much success against people like Lain and Anther.

thats cause lain and anther are rapists and are amongst the best players in the world, metaknight or not you'd need to be at their level to beat them, are there are metaknights that are at their level that beat them.


anyways sorry if that comes across negative, in the end its all just pointless bickering right?

I wanna learn this style for fox, imo you should promote it more for fox then meta, fox is mad

and screw beer pong, you guys dont have meat pies, like wtf, I nearly died over there going 3 weeks without one.

 

[Force Frontal by Chicken]

I wanna learn this style for fox, imo you should promote it more for fox then meta, fox is mad

omg, I love fox... and I think I'm one of the top couple foxes out there based on the opinions of the top MI people who've traveled to many national tourneys though I'm a little out of practice because I've been focusing on melee for the past few weeks. If you want me to help with fox, I'd totally be willing to give lots of fox advice lol. Let me know if you have any questions you want answered here or if you want to ask questions on AIM or something.

and screw beer pong, you guys dont have meat pies, like wtf, I nearly died over there going 3 weeks without one.

Naw dude, our beer pong beats the **** out of your meat pies... at least I think... Idk, I'm not really sure what a meat pie is, lol.

 

[Shaya]

Meat pies is steak in a microwavable form, covered in pastry.

Or something

Except it isn't steak

ITS EARS, TONGUES AND NOSES.

 

[Force Frontal by Chicken]

Meat pies is steak in a microwavable form, covered in pastry.

Or something

Except it isn't steak

ITS EARS, TONGUES AND NOSES.

lmao, that sounds awful XD