General Discussion & Character Rankings

[tedeth]

Scoot makes a good point that I can't help but agree with.

Thus a paradox occurs in scoots head.

 

[Dekar289]

falco's crap

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I actually agree with most of it.
Too low: dk

Nah bro, it's like... impossible to get anywhere in a tourney with DK. D3 and MK auto-win against him.

dks claim their planking is unbeatable atm.

DK should be mega tier. planking is mega dumb.

I'd like to see proof of that cause it sounds pretty bull-**** to me.

Not to mention GnW. All depends on the char you are playing, against the char that is planking though. More of the cast struggles to break a decent plank, then to plank effectively themselves.

I won't even begin to whine about Luigi here.

G&W's planking can be beaten, you just need to learn how to do it, he has a frame of vulnerability iirc.

Pikachu is so overrated...

-1 against MK, +1 against Snake and +41616416 against Falco = Pika is good.

In regards to the new tier list:
Jigglypuff is way too low once again, Olimar should be higher, Wolf jumped heaps wtf and Yoshi should still be a little higher.

Anyway, this is what the tier list should've been: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K50tAIdlAW0

 

[Splice]

DK is not an auto lose vs MK or D3
It's been proven vs D3

idk about vs MK, the MU feels pretty breezy to me, Uair beats nado, Bair beats everything potentially

Pikachu has a +1 vs Snake and beats Falco
so he is viable against two high tiers
he doesnt do as well as Lucario and ZSS and other chars I can't even remember against the rest and he doesn't have a particularly large amount of rep.

Two good MUs and not having a -2 vs MK doesn't put you in A Tier. It shouldn't.
There are quite a few characters with -1 vs MK who do better against the rest, and Pikachu has -2's iirc

 

[Grim Tuesday]

DK - Play my MK when you come to SA :3 Uair beating Tornado isn't enough for him to avoid the ****.

And it really definitely is auto-lose against D3. There is no way he can win when a single grab = death against the character with the best (non tether) grab-range in the game.

Pikachu - Those characters are a MASSIVE portion of the metagame, and Pikachu has decent match-ups; minor disadvantage against other top tiers and even/advantage against everyone else (except for like, Lucario and Oli).

Don't know what you're talking about with Lucario, he like doesn't have any advantages on the top 8 iirc. ZSS I can see, though. All in all, Pikachu's match-up spread is way better than you seem to think it is >_>

Not to mention that one of the best players in the world (ESAM) uses Pika.

EDIT: I'm going to bed now, so if you respond tonight, don't stay awake expecting me to respond

 

[Splice]

for the record i think lots of pikas MUs are wrong, pika is ****.

ESAM is like the only rep. And Riddle does better than ESAM with ZSS.

GaW and D3 are better than Pikachu. Pikachu isn't a whole tier above them, in any case.
His placing in the next tier is stupid. He is not up there with the others.
Sorry for mentioning Lucario, lapse in though, Lucario is garbage.

 

[dean.]

I think ESAM does better than Riddle these days at nationals. But I don't follow too closely.

Dedede is not better than Pikachu.

Pika has a really good matchup spread against the top tiers, but only average against mid tiers (compared to the rest of high tier) which would be his main critisicm.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

^This post is 100% correct.^

 

[Remastered]

Grim, I don't think you have played a decent DK with your MK yet, because the MU isn't horrible at all. MK's favor sure, but good DK's will punish that train of thought.

I think you like to think more of your Chars than you should Grim. Jiggs is fun and all, and I used to main her aswell, but she is actually incredibly unviable in the current metagame.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

We'll put that to the test then.

And no, I've never played a decent DK with my MK. I'm basing my opinion on the match-up from videos I've watched of it and the characters themselves, not my own scrubby SA experiences.

 

[xXArrowXx]

imo its 5:5.
dk was considered a mk counter awhile back XD

 

[Shaya]

He was considered a character with not a terrible match up against MK.

It isn't even.

 

[Dekar289]

at least young link vs peach/puff in melee makes sense
but dk metaknight? rofl WTF

 

[Remastered]

60:40 - 55:45. Depending on the ruleset.

D3 vs DK is however a difficult MU (almost unwinnable, all things being equal). If the D3 is allowed to infinite & get the grab, it is as good as game over.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

With the current official ruleset, he IS allowed to infinite.

And you guys are crazy, lol, no one decent actually believes that DK/MK is almost even now, that was 2008 ****.

Nairo telling it like it is Game 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JiVq3Q-0WQ

 

[Grim Tuesday]

EDIT: ****ing Crashboards

 

[Splice]

about the pika thing; I dont agree with the MU spread, so just saying "but it says dis on da chart" doesn't really do anything for me, that's pretty much saying "but he is in high tier, so he should be in high tier", because afai can tell, the people that put that chart together were also involved in the tier list, as was the chart itself.

He has poor approaches and he gets outspaced. I could be wrong about this but it doesn't seem like he has an easy time getting kills too. Pika should be in the tier down. He is not a tier above D3 GaW ZSS etc.

Also DK vs MK is worse than DK vs D3 imo
without the infinite DK outspaces D3 and i think its 60:40 to DK
The Infinite is a big factor but DK can still avoid it and we've seen top level D3's lose to DK's (who would also have been top level of course) in tournaments.
It's probably about 60:40, 65:35 at worst.

MK vs DK is defs like 65:35, no better than that.
It's just not unwinnable. It's totally feasible.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You can't list a few bad aspects of a character and say they are bad just because of that, you have to look at the whole picture.

Pikachu has lots going for him: A good, spammable projectile. Movement Speed, both ground and air. Great recovery. Great damage racking. Good match-ups against 3 of the top 4 characters in the game (one of which, MK, has VERY few match-ups that are as hard as Pika and is about 50% of the metagame at the moment). Fast, useful attacks.

And not in his favour... Difficulty getting KOs, but not to an extreme extent like Samus. He should be KO'ing around 150% most of the time. Could use a little more range, not a huge issue. Not many approaching options, not really necessary when you have such a good spacing game.

Pikachu could move down a little, but his position in B Tier is justified. Though I agree that he shouldn't be a tier above G&W, though I'd put G&W up a tier rather than vice versa to remedy that.

DK can't just "avoid" the infinite. He is going to get grabbed at some point, and every grab = death. D3 has the best non tether grab range in the game. Take a look at this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2jOlKjqPvQ

See how even the best DK in the world can't help but get grabbed? If the infinite was legal at KTAR 3, Atomsk would've won with ease. I know you're going to say that he wasn't trying that hard to avoid the grabs because there was no risk of being infinited. If that IS the case, look instead at how severely that would limit the DK's options.

Did you watch that video I posted of Nairo vs. Will? Yeah... Maybe unwinnable was too harsh, but it's still awful enough for DK's new tier placement to be legit.

 

[Splice]

Unlike falcos lazers, Pikas neutral B leaves him too open for it to be viable at close range or when moving forward. Just remember that, its good but it's not special.

His air mobility isnt that good from what i can see. Also an approaching game always benefits a character, and whether it's "necessary" or not, it is a merit to have one. GaW has next to no approaching game anyway but I still think it's better than Pika's, and it's one of GaWs biggest problems. Perhaps others should move up a tier with Pika then him drop down, but it's more than just GaW. Most of the next tier down should be with Pika.
It's not just a letter tier either, its Top Tier and High Tier difference or whatever the titles were
Which suggests a pretty big difference.

I can look at Pikas merits too but the fact is that's something those below him have too, and apart from his recoveries big range and generous options, the characters below him do a lot of that stuff better.

I saw those 2 sets where the DK beat the D3.
Depending on the stage it's not amazingly hard not to get grabbed.
IC's arent the best char are they?
And hey now, D3 has bigger range than IC's
But DK has bigger aerial range than most characters, and D3 is big and real easy for DK to play a legit keep away game. It looks this way in matches I see and it feels this way when I play.

 

[Splice]

i wrote a post but crashboards crashed.

basically i still disagree with you and theres heaps of points against your support for Pika and you can talk to me about it at Reloaded if you feel so inclined.

I see DKs ability to outspace D3 when he plays
DKs aerial range outdoes D3's grab range depending on stage and it feels like DK has the tools to keep D3 away when i play as well
D3s big size helps DK keepaway whereas IC's i'd imagine would be harder for DK to get the hit on whilst still retreating,

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Unlike falcos lazers, Pikas neutral B leaves him too open for it to be viable at close range or when moving forward. Just remember that, its good but it's not special.

I'm aware that it isn't as good as Falco's lasers, lol.

His air mobility isnt that good from what i can see.

It's average, but Pika has lots of options in the air for both defense and offense.

Also an approaching game always benefits a character, and whether it's "necessary" or not, it is a merit to have one. GaW has next to no approaching game anyway but I still think it's better than Pika's, and it's one of GaWs biggest problems.

Depends on the match-up, but G&W doesn't have a projectile to pressure opponents. That's the main difference in their "approaching" games.

Perhaps others should move up a tier with Pika then him drop down, but it's more than just GaW. Most of the next tier down should be with Pika.
It's not just a letter tier either, its Top Tier and High Tier difference or whatever the titles were
Which suggests a pretty big difference.

Really? Lucario gets trashed on by everyone. Dedede has a bad match-up with Meta Knight and several hard counters. Zero Suit Samus is just a pretty average character overall, same with Toon Link.

I can look at Pikas merits too but the fact is that's something those below him have too, and apart from his recoveries big range and generous options, the characters below him do a lot of that stuff better.

Everyone below Pikachu has pretty glaring weaknesses, that's why they are in separate tiers. Zero Suit Samus isn't safe enough and can't deal with pressure, D3's large size and slow speed make him combo food and Toon Link/Lucario's lack of options. The only one you could really make a case for is G&W, as I said before.

I saw those 2 sets where the DK beat the D3.

With the infinite legal/being used?

Depending on the stage it's not amazingly hard not to get grabbed.

So... DK can win on his counter-pick? He still loses to the opponent's CP and starters, so it doesn't really matter if he can avoid being grabbed on some stages.

IC's arent the best char are they?

Not really a valid comparison. ICs have horrendous grab range (well, range in general) and rely on Nana the ****** being alive for their infinites to work. Their infinites are also a lot harder to do, so you can't just quickly train up a pocket ICs for a specific match-up.

But DK has bigger aerial range than most characters, and D3 is big and real easy for DK to play a legit keep away game. It looks this way in matches I see and it feels this way when I play.

It's not enough.

basically i still disagree with you and theres heaps of points against your support for Pika and you can talk to me about it at Reloaded if you feel so inclined.

I'm sure we'll find better things to do at Reloaded :3

I see DKs ability to outspace D3 when he plays
DKs aerial range outdoes D3's grab range depending on stage and it feels like DK has the tools to keep D3 away when i play as well
D3s big size helps DK keepaway whereas IC's i'd imagine would be harder for DK to get the hit on whilst still retreating,

He really doesn't. I'm not sure how you can still think the match-up is winnable after seeing how often Will gets grabbed.

 

[Aarnstnrd]

Sorry for interrupting, but is there anyway to perform a tilt input (not smash) on a wii remote without a nunchuku?

 

[Jei Jei]

^buffer it

 

[Aarnstnrd]

What do you mean exactly?

 

[Remastered]

Buy a gamecube control = problems solved.

 

[Jei Jei]

What do you mean exactly?

I mean you need to input the tilt while youre character is busy doing something else.
Eg. To do an uptilt, jump or block or something whatever and then hold up and A.
Our just buy a game cube controller and ignore my horrible, horrible example (which was horrible)

 

[Rad]

itt two people who know nothing about Pikachu

 

[Splice]

But Rad, don't you see?
I'm from Victoria!!

@Grim; for the record Lucario is totally trash and I agree. D3 maybe not higher than Pika but in same tier. ZSS and TL on the other hand totes as good as Pika at least.

Pika projectile isnt an amazing camping tool and can hardly force an approach. Therefore it is no substitute.

About DK; you made assumptions on what I said. I meant depending on the stage; I think DK vs D3 is way too hard on FD, or whatever D3s CP will be. DK can get a decent starter for himself. I mentioned that ICs grab range is worse than D3s, too, so no need to point that out.

DKs range is enough. That's my counter to your statement "It's not enough"
Should be all i need. lol.

See this? Note the spacing at the start? That's the important part.
Any D3 that rushes in for the grab will get destroyed, he has to play a spacing game.
And then do you see how easy it is to lose that spacing game?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAgEV1fb08g

As far as i can tell, no infinites allowed in this match either, but you can see DKs spacing game in it and Tmacc obviously got hasty for the grab anyway, and he only got two before getting ***** lol

 

[Grim Tuesday]

but you are wrong so there and if you still disagree with me then you can sleep outside when I "house" you for reloaded

 

[Splice]

I MM you DK vs D3

If I win you shout me Chinese and have to play as Wario all night for me to practice

I'd say you have to sleep outside if I win but I love you too much, that I'd just have to sleep outside too

 

[Shaya]

Pikachu's dash to shield is pretty good.

His small hurtbox, good dash speed and down throw to nair combos on the entire cast up until like 60% (which does like 20 something % fresh), utilt/dthrow kill set ups (lameness in thunder), nearly ungimpable, the best/second best (depending on how you rate bucket braking with G&W) momentum cancelling in light weights.

Take G&W.
Does he actually win the match up against pikachu?

In between Pikachu's fsmash outranging G&W's aerials and ground moves (with a similar start up but faster than most of G&W's cool downs), being able to upsmash/nair iiirc) inbetween G&W's bair hits on shield....

But then Pika loses his "kill set ups" with thunder. Arr well.
Just dtilt trip into running usmash imo.

-

Pikachu also has shield frame traps with proper tjolting (he can have two hit your shield one after the other while being able to land within you/MAYBE dash grab). I'm one to think Pika's camping isn't as great as esam makes out, but he has DEM options.

 

[Splice]

yeah gaws bair is ****
GaW doesnt have an approach so its hard to get past that kind of stuff
Approaching Pika is similair to approaching MK for GaW, a bit easier but still same kinda stuff.

Mario also has frame traps lol.

I mean I'm not saying Pika is terribad just a whole tier above ZSS GaW D3 and Toon Link (I may overrate TL but whatever) ... I just don't see it.

So do you think GaW really loses to Pika? It's not like Pika has an easy time approaching GaW either...

 

[Shaya]

Nah, I wouldn't be surprised if its still G&W's advantage.

But pika's strengths shine through in other match ups too
Like seriously... Pika definitely beats Falco and Snake. And gay grabs half of the cast.

 

[Splice]

Ok.

I know Pika beats Falco and Snake.
but ZSS GaW also have some winning A Tier MUs, I could have sworn...
ZSS beats Snake iirc... no-one else? I can see her beating Marth and Wario but you'd defs know that more than me!
GaW beats Wario and some1 else lol. Anyone who isnt Marth Snake Falco Diddy in A tier, GaW beats I'm pretty sure.
And even if it doesnt say so
He totally does. lol

TL and D3 im not too sure but I cant see their A Tier MU spread being too bad.

What do you mean gay grab? that works on more than just spacies?
To high %'s, i mean?

 

[dean.]

iirc ZSS loses to Snake but beats Olimar and Ice Climbers. Against Marth and Wario it's pretty even. Has a fair bit of trouble with Falco.

Toon Link beats Ice Climbers and that's about it... goes even with a few, gets wrecked by MK and doesn't like Falco.

Dedede has small advantages against Marth and Snake and a medium advantage against Wario, but gets hard countered by MK, heavily disadvantaged against Ice Climbers and Olimar and struggles with Falco, Diddy and Pika...

Pika doesn't like Diddy and Olimar iirc, but apart from that has small disadvantages against MK and Marth and maybe Wario.

And isn't Wario:G&W considered even these days? That's the main reason you disagree with G&W's tier placing, because you disagree with like all of his matchups like I've told you before how I think he loses to Olimar and ICs but you disagree so yeah.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

In summary: Pikachu deserves to be a tier above those other characters.

 

[Attila_]

Sounds like everyone beats snake lol, that's not right.

Pika is gay but snake wins.

 

[Remastered]

I will MM anyone DK as long as the infinite is legal. Hell as long as I can do the walking grab I'll take the MM.

Then you can shout me chinese Splice :D

 

[Attila_]

Splice, accept the offer.

Then play him on PORT TOWN.

 

[Remastered]

Ledge infinites are fun too .