Ganondorf Board's Question & Answer Thread.

[MARLX]

What is Ganons momentom cancel?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Up Air.

Or BAir.

I don't remember if BAir was better or not, I just always use UAir.

 

[Makke]

.....................

 

[Alien Vision]

Questions I need answered so I can become 50% more devastating.

How do you escape from the following attacks:

Marth's dancing blade.

Pikachu's D-Smash

Zelda's smashes, although, I don't think you can escape U-Smash.

Everyone's jabbing, I try to escape it to no prevail. I've seen people go behind them aswell.

Pit's multiple attacks. I've also seen people escape his F-Smash. How do you do this? I tried quarter-circle, so I must be doing something horribly wrong.

Practically any move that relates to those.

Now, how do people shield so fast when they hit the ground? I keep getting hit out of my shield and it's uber fail. My R button is halfway broken, but it's not that broken.

Is there a way to use Ganondorf's different aerials to shut down projectiles, or approach? His N-Air seems like it has quite a bit of potential to form a barrier, and making it harder for the opponent to approach since you could always use another move for whichever situation the opponent puts themselves in.
Thankyou in advance.

 

[Vermanubis]

Questions I need answered so I can become 50% more devastating.

How do you escape from the following attacks:

Marth's dancing blade.

Depends on which one. If it's the green/thrusting blade, you can SDI into Marth to get behind him. Other ones are next to impossible to SDI since they hit too far apart for SDI to be effective.

Pikachu's D-Smash

SDI diagonally away from Pika

Zelda's smashes, although, I don't think you can escape U-Smash.

SDI into or diagonally away from Zelda for FSmash. USmash is a lot harder to SDI.

Everyone's jabbing, I try to escape it to no prevail. I've seen people go behind them aswell.

SDI! In the event you're not familiar with SDI, it's basically just mashing the c-stick/analog stick in a given direction to influence your trajectory and ultimately escape an attack. "Given direction" here is whichever way is a mixture of either the most advantageous or whichever direction you can escape their hitbox quickest.

Pit's multiple attacks. I've also seen people escape his F-Smash. How do you do this? I tried quarter-circle, so I must be doing something horribly wrong.

With Pit and Diddy, or anyone with a two-hit Smash attack, it's typically much easier to SDI out when you're at high percents due to sourspots knocking you farther out. The same applies as above though. You just have to find the best direction to SDI out from! With some attacks, it's best to SDI away, and for some, it's best to SDI into them.

Practically any move that relates to those.

Now, how do people shield so fast when they hit the ground? I keep getting hit out of my shield and it's uber fail. My R button is halfway broken, but it's not that broken.

Two things need to be considered when landing, especially as Ganon. RCO (recovery carry-over lag) and buffering. RCO is basically a penalty you incur whenever you grab the ledge with an Up-B move that dictates that you are helpless for about 35 frames next time you land. The lag can be mitigated by doing things like a side-b ledge regrab, but it can't be alleviated. Secondly, with buffering, you always wanna time your inputs to be just a few frames before you hit the ground so it'll buffer and come out on the first possible. As for shieldpokes, Ganon's probably the easiest character in the game to shieldpoke next to R.O.B. and DK. Not a whole lot can be done about it.

Is there a way to use Ganondorf's different aerials to shut down projectiles, or approach? His N-Air seems like it has quite a bit of potential to form a barrier, and making it harder for the opponent to approach since you could always use another move for whichever situation the opponent puts themselves in.

NAir is, in my opinion, one of Ganon's best moves in some MUs. It has excellent range, it can chain into other aerials and it deals good damage. It is paramount to his anterior zoning game, though, it is easily punishable if your walls get predictable. Projectiles on the other hand have more sway than Ganon's aerials.

 

[Alien Vision]

Thankyou for answering these. So it's diagonal, eh? Mhmm, alright. I am very familiar with SDI, I just don't fully understand how to do it. Lol. I rack up alot of damage with just that nonsense. If I can SDI out of this stuff, my Ganondorf will be a very formidable force.

Buffering shield? Mhmm.. I will practice that. :D Can rolling after shielding cause you to be vulnerable? I think that is what is getting me hit actually.

I definately agree with Ganon's aerial. There has to be a way to stop projectiles safely.. I really love his spotdodge though. I mean, Bowser can jab some projectiles. >; I guess SH'ing AD cautiously towards the opponent is the only way?

 

[Vermanubis]

Thankyou for answering these. So it's diagonal, eh? Mhmm, alright. I am very familiar with SDI, I just don't fully understand how to do it. Lol. I rack up alot of damage with just that nonsense. If I can SDI out of this stuff, my Ganondorf will be a very formidable force.

Buffering shield? Mhmm.. I will practice that. :D Can rolling after shielding cause you to be vulnerable? I think that is what is getting me hit actually.

I definately agree with Ganon's aerial. There has to be a way to stop projectiles safely.. I really love his spotdodge though. I mean, Bowser can jab some projectiles. >; I guess SH'ing AD cautiously towards the opponent is the only way?

1. Ohhhh yeah. You're at your most vulnerable when you roll. Use rolls/spotdodges sparingly and calculatingly. Learn what moves to spotdodge and which to shield. I.e. shield multi-hit moves, spotdodge shield-transcending moves like Diddy, Bowser or Ganon's side-b.

2. Ganon can stop SOME very weak projectiles with his FTilt, but it's almost always better to just take advantage of the gap they leave when firing the projectile rather than wasting invaluable frames deflecting inconsequential projectiles.

 

[Alien Vision]

Ahh yes! So that's what was kicking my ***. That's 20% more evilness I have against people now. Now all I have to do is become faster, read better, stop missing thunderstorm chances. PS BS, learn how to use edge cancelling better. I'm starting to use Ganon's Flight while jumping from the edge, which is a major +1 for me :D I can use that AT by shorthopping into an air-dodge + Down-B 95% of the time. I strangely suck at performing it by using Down-B from already standing on the stage at the very edge. I get it like 20% of the time. I seem to excel at advanced techniques before I learn the boring stuff. I learned how to use Ganon's Flight, the short hopping one, in less than 30 minutes. XD

Mhmm, projectiles don't scare me. Mwuahahaha. Just like everyone's AT's they have. Or CG's. Or frame traps. They never scare me.

Another question. What move do I use after flame choke on these following characters:

MK

ZSS

Pikachu

Zelda

Snake (I think it's A neutral)

Diddy

G&W

Ice Climbers

Link

Luigi

Pit

C.Falcon

ALL OF THEM. Lol.

 

[Vermanubis]

Excerpted from the Skills and Techs thread in case you ever need more in-depth reference. This is a list of the frames at which each character's invincibility frames activate after Gerudo choke.

Jab - 8 frames
FTilt, DTilt and Dash attack - 10 frames
DSmash - 15 frames

Anyone whose frames match or are greater than a given move, that move can be used on them guaranteed if you buffer properly. There are minor exceptions, such as characters whose hurtboxes are too low to be hit by jab, despite you being at a frame advantage, i.e. Falco, Lucario, Ganon, etc. You never really wanna use jab on anyone if you can DTilt/DA/FTilt instead.

8 Ganondorf

9 Bowser
9 DK
9 Falco
9 Link
9 Lucario
9 Marth
9 Samus
9 Snake
9 Wolf

10 DDD
10 Falcon
10 Fox
10 Ike
10 Mario
10 Peach
10 Pit
10 Sheik
10 Sonic
10 Zelda

11 Charizard
11 Diddy
11 Luigi
11 Pikachu
11 Toon Link

12 G&W
12 Ice Climbers
12 Ivysaur
12 Jigglypuff
12 Kirby
12 Lucas
12 Metaknight
12 Ness
12 ROB
12 Squirtle
12 Wario
12 Yoshi
12 ZSS

16 Olimar

 

[Alien Vision]

Whoa. Why does Ganondorf have the most frame advantage from flame choke? :o!

Also, thankyou! >:D

Why does Olimar suck so bad at it aswell.. 16? Lololol.. I'm guessing you can do anything to him.

Ok this is easy to remember! I don't have to remember all of them. All I have to do is remember the tiny few that I can jab, and dash,f-tilt, and d-tilt on everyone else while olimar gets D-Smashed. (While keeping in the small hitboxes in consideration of course)

Thanks again. :3

 

[PEACE7]

When someone gets hit with ganons upb like full on what move can be done right after I don't remember which one or can you buffer any move right after? hope this makes sense

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Most characters can NAir or FAir.

 

[Makke]

.......................

 

[PEACE7]

Alright cool thanks guys.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Oh right and Marth can Dolphin Slash, Mario can Super Jump, and I wouldn't be terribly surprised if Luigi can Shoryuken us, though I'm fairly sure he can't.

 

[Makke]

.................

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Green Missile I'd think would be waaaaaay too slow.

 

[Alien Vision]

How useful do you think Ganon's D-Tilt is? I've personally found it really good at zoning people out along with SH'ing other moves that can cancel really fast like U-Air, Neutral Air, and if the opponent isn't that close; throw in some empty B-airs. I think it makes your opponent think twice (or harder) on what they will do next since you aren't in one given place to give them a chance to plan things out easily. Which is why I am a very aggressive player. I like to be in my opponents face with a pinch of caution at all times.

 

[Makke]

....................

 

[DLA]

Dtilt really isn't good for spacing. He really can't afford to stand still for that long if he's trying to avoid getting hit, and he definitely can't afford sticking his hurtbox out that far. Plus, a lot of chars can punish it OoS, and even if they can't punish it OoS directly, it still puts Ganon at a bad position after he hits their shield because it's a slow move (not compared to the rest of Ganon's moves, but in general), and he's put at a frame disadvantage.

I'll land the occasional Dtilt by just throwing it out, but its only really viable use is as a guaranteed followup after Gerudo, especially at low %'s. If they're at 0% and you get a gerudo, you should always Dtilt (assuming it's guaranteed), because one of three things will happen after the Dtilt lands:

1. Your opponent gets hit by the Dtilt and air dodges into the ground. This seems to happen about 40-50% of the time--follow up with another Gerudo, another Dtilt (followed by a gerudo if they air dodge again), or anything else really.

2. If your opponent has a fast Nair, they'll often throw that out after getting hit by the Dtilt, because they think you'll try to run up and punish their air dodge. This is usually vs. MKs, Luigis, Marios, G&Ws, etc. Just Dtilt then don't move, then once they hit the ground, Gerudo them because they'll get landing lag from Nair.

3. The rest of the time, they will double jump away immediately after the hitstun from the Dtilt ends. If you think they'll do this (it happens about as much as option #1), run up and Uair them immediately. It will usually hit them. This is good because you just robbed them of their double jump, and now you get to punish their landing too. Try to gerudo them as they land.


These options can be messed up if your opponent has an invincible up B move like shuttle loop or parachute or something, but hopefully you get the general idea.

reposting......

 

[Alien Vision]

What if you aren't predictable? What if you use it as a mix-up along with other moves? Not just as a move just because it's a move.

There are ways to use moves intelligently. Also, I've seen people agree with my idea about D-Tilt. I know you're a good Ganon, but more than one Ganon agreed D:

 

[Supreme Dirt]

DTilt is a bad move.

That is all.

Every time I've used it, I wonder either why I didn't dash attack instead, or I'm pissed off cause they shield grabbed my foot. It's a bad habit to use DTilt a lot. Almost as bad as our jab.

 

[Alien Vision]

That makes it: 2 - 3 D-Tilt is still considered a good move until someone else comes in and makes it a 3 - 3. Lol.

 

[DLA]

If you just Dtilted your opponent, you also could have flame choked your opponent. So instead of flame choke ->dtilt, you just did dtilt.

 

[Alien Vision]

Wrong. Flame Choke is another move you can use to mix it up, and can be very risky either way.

D-Tilt is great for not spacing exactly, but making it harder for the opponent to approach you then say if you were standing and using really short moves that are only good for close combat. Like thunderstorming, empty SH'd U-Airs, etc. When you throw in the D-Tilt they have one more thing to worry about. Like when MK uses D-Tilt, and Marth uses D-Tilt. Ganon just has a washed up version that can be put to good use IMO.

Also, that makes your opponent worry about more things you will do, which could actually make flame choke a little bit more easier to pull off if you know how to mix it up properly.

To be honest, you are a great Ganondorf. Verm is another outstanding Ganondorf, but he agrees with me, and you? C'mon. D:

 

[DLA]

So basically you're saying Dtilt is good because it gives your opponent something to worry about?

How much damage does "giving your opponent something to worry about" do? What % does it kill at?

Not trying to be rude or anything lol. But throwing out any move gives your opponent something to worry about... mainly because they don't want to get hit by it.

 

[Alien Vision]

Ganondorf is defense too. It's not only about getting in the kill. It's about surviving like the poorly structured character that he is; with our brute willpower, and fearless aggression--with a pinch of caution.

D-Tilt is a great move IMO because:

When I use it, I like to SH U-Air sometimes, and thunderstorming until I think I will get punished. Sometimes throw in a D-Tilt if I sense they are going to go in from the ground. I also shield a few times purposely, or spot dodge XD. It's just a huge game of What The **** is ****ing doing!

So.. With buffering, throwing all these moves, and controlling the space between your opponent with zest, Ganondorf becomes a bit more flexible with D-Tilt :D

 

[Makke]

..................

 

[Alien Vision]

My Ganondorf is really fast. I'm also very good at mixing up things along with lacking predictability. My mind inconsistent, so is my playstyle.

I am a mindgamer by default. Lol.

Also do you still have that combo we did on FD? Your G&W and my Ganondorf?


I accidentally erased it from my replays, and I was like.. >__________>

 

[Makke]

....................

 

[Vermanubis]

I'm on the fence between AV and DLA's points of view. While I think DTilt has its concrete utilities, I don't think it's a universally great move in a lot of situations. It's great for buffer mix-ups and it can have <some> use for anterior zoning, but it's a move whose unique strengths are dwarfed by its replaceable ones.

 

[smashkng]

I don't see how Dtilt is a bad move. It pokes much better than Dash Attack and it's safer than Dash Attack in general. It's also slightly disjointed which can surprise the opponent. It can hit Wario out of his Bite if you space it correctly. It's one of our moves with least lag, I don't see how it isn't the best option in certain situations and you can even use it sometimes to fake out and punish the opponent for trying to punish missed Dtilt. It also deals a nice 12% damage which isn't bad at all.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Yeah, it is a good poke, and that's about its only utility.

Like... Out of Gerudo, if you can DTilt, you can dash attack, and there aren't a lot of MUs where we rely on that to kill.

I actually tend to get most of my kills with FTilt.

Against Icies I've found uses for it, but that's about it.

I'd also never play the icies MU in tourney (sorry verm, just can't do it), soooo.... yeah.

 

[Alien Vision]

Man I wish you guys could see my Ganondorf. So my ideas don't seem like it's coming from a noob. I've always been gifted with games, and my Ganondorf is not your average Ganondorf. What if I found a way to use D-Tilt masterfully? It's a possibility, right?

It hasn't let me down, and I already know people can grab you out of it if you don't use it right.

Yea, dash attack is great to catch people off guard like Marth's spacing. It's definately a great way to go all out on your opponent. Like:

Controlling your space. Watching out for your opponents mindgaming, dodging capabilities, projectiles, etc.

Controlling the spaces where they roll, watching how they react to everything.

Punishing their spotdodging nature with thunderstorm (this takes a hell alot of time and practice to master D

D-Tilt is for mixing up with SH'ing thunderstorming and making them think twice about approching while acting accordingly to their direction, movement, moves they could use + possible midgaming.

I personally found U-Smash very good on C.Falcon. Just use it twice in a row sometimes to catch them off guard. C.Falcon has bad priority, right?

Mhmm.. It's really hard to explain this in words. You just have to see my Ganon to understand why I believe in what I do regarding his movesets.

 

[DLA]

I never said Dtilt is a bad move. It's a completely usable move. It's just that every single thing it does (besides follow up Gerudo), another move in his moveset does better.

Punishing? Gerudo and Dash Attack are always better options. (Gerudo punishes, Dash Attack kills)

Spacing? Spacing with a ground move is often a bad idea, especially in Ganondorf's case. If Dtilt gets powershielded (which happens a LOT), then you are going to get wrecked.

What you guys need to understand is that Ganon can't afford to do chip damage. And yes I know it's not Street Fighter so I'm using that term incorrectly... what I mean is that, if you space Dtilt correctly, and it lands, you'll do 12 damage. That's it. You really can't follow it up with anything. That's why you need to Gerudo instead, so that you can do roughly twice the damage, or maybe even KO. You can't waste punishing opportunities doing 12 damage and then resetting.

If there's an opportunity where Dtilt will land but Gerudo won't, then use Dtilt. I can guarantee that these opportunities won't present themselves often, however.

Alien you seem to think very highly of yourself lol. Want to wifi some time?

 

[Alien Vision]

Yes DLA. I would be honored to challenge you to a Wifi duel. Finally a great player who wants to Wifi. I am smiling with glee right now -->

 

[Noobicidal]

I only use D-tilt after Gerudo. Besides that, I have no real opinion on the move.

 

[Gunblade789]

I also never really use d-tilt for the reasons that DLA has mentioned. Punishes that can result in follow ups are great, especially with ganon and his damage output. D-tilt just doesn't cater to the goals Ganon should want, imo.

 

[Alien Vision]

Alright DLA. D-Tilt is probably a bad move for alot of people, but I've found good use of it if you can read your opponent really well

 

[Exalted]

Thing is, most good players won't let you read them to an extent where D-Tilt actually becomes very helpful.

Oh well, maybe if you're good at reading that which is not meant to be read...my head hurts.