Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory

[#HBC | Gorf]

But why not just go with MK? He's top tier, easy to play, and so simple to win with.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lain is my experience, the best of the best.

First off, wrong. I've been grabbed out of jab. Many times. Right after the first hit. You aren't to hit with a jab combo unless you hit with the first. Jab Combo = worthless.

They can't ever shieldgrab you if you do it from behind them.

And on top of that, desynced blizzard > bair.

Bair = next to useless.

If they're doing a lot of Blizzards, keep in mind, it never clanks, and during the time they are using it, you can throw out Chef. Not like it will hit them, but it will get them to do something else. And it's safe if you get out a full volley.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

Also...Falco does have major trouble killing you if you're on the defensive. He can't combo into his Up-smash at KO percents (even laser -> Up-smash is easily shielded). His F-smash is slow. His D-smash has terrible range (and is weak). His B-air doesn't work when you're properly spacing.

Falco:

Dtilt:
Total: 27 frames
First hits on frame 7
Shield hit lag: 9
Shield stun: 13
Advantage: -16


Utilt:
Total: 36 frames
First hits on frame 4, second hit on frame 12
Shield hit lag: 6 (second hit)
Shield stun: 11 (second hit)
Advantage: -19 (second hit)



G&W:

Neutral A
• Hits on frame 4
• Hitbox lasts 4-6
• 9 Cooldown
• 15 Total

Dtilt
Frame Breakdown:
• 1-5 Startup
• 6-15 Hitbox out
• 16-25 Cooldown

Frame Summary:
Duration: 25
Hits on frame: 6



nevermind falco wrecking G&W on cool down frames, G&W's ONLY option is to jab if we want to go blow for blow, but we can get grabbed out of that.

They can't ever shieldgrab you if you do it from behind them. If they're doing a lot of Blizzards, keep in mind, it never clanks, and during the time they are using it, you can throw out Chef. Not like it will hit them, but it will get them to do something else. And it's safe if you get out a full volley.

Jab... from behind? Thats not practical, at all. How in the hell could you manage to set that up? Roll? G&W's roll blows.


In a situation where they're coming at you blizzarding, theres likely not gunna be much room to bacon, and on top of that, the IC's can just turn around, walk away, and either spam ice blocks or wait for you to approach, which is generally with back air, which will get you blizzarded.

Bacon just isn't a good projectile. Its uses are limited to virtually nothing.

Its like Ankoku said:

 

[Hydruz]

King DDD - 60/40
Falco - 60/40
Ice Climbers - 60/40

I'd love to rediscuss these match ups.

Lain has DeDeDe'd the best of the G&W's. How can this matchup still be at 60/40?

This Falco thing is probly the dumbest match up this list. How can Falco be at a disadvantage? He can CG half a stock away from G&W, and is one of the quickest characters in the game, which is a HUGE advantage in G&W's favor, being that he's so slow. Its really not like Falco has a huge problem killing.

IC's? Really? IC's grab G&W, he's dead. He's incredibly easy to CG, and even you do get a chance to break away, next time you're grabbed, over 30+ damage, you aren't getting out. You can't camp against IC's, eventually a desynced blizzard is going to get you. Theres really not much G&W can do here except hope to CP a good stage.

I'd also like to say wolf/G&W is 50/50, but none of you would believe that.

I agree with you on these. Especially the DDD matchup. G&W Really cannot approach DDD at all, most of his ariels can be sheild grabbed.

Falco Is probably 50/50 Imo because of the Chain That puts G&W to high damage easily, but most of G&W's ariels destroy him so it certainly isnt in falco's favor. After the chain and a couple more lasers and grabs, a well spaced fsmash will probably take a G&W stock.

Ok with the IC I agree too lol but He can bucket the blizzard so that gives him a slight edge, and his bair can really mess up the IC's. But once your grabbed your litteraly done for. G&W doesnt have any approach other than a well spaced bair.

My opinons

DDD G&W 50/50

Falco G&W 50/50

IC G&W 55/45

 

[Mr. Escalator]

The point is that G&W is one of the better characters at not getting grabbed. One grab = a stock for every character, not exclusive to G&W. The other two matchups seem closer to being right, but I think G&W actually does better than 6:4 by a teensy bit versus IC's.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

The point is that G&W is one of the better characters at not getting grabbed. One grab = a stock for every character, not exclusive to G&W. The other two matchups seem closer to being right, but I think G&W actually does better than 6:4 by a teensy bit versus IC's.

The grab = a stock isn't exactly what i'm talking about.

Game and Watch doesn't have time to escape. Against a metagame ICs, the only hope for survival is to hope the ICs trip or screw up. Since game and watch dies at lower percentage, there isn't room for that to happen, whereas against a heavier character, the grab, pummel, and throw animations are slower, and harder to time, leaving far more room for an accident to occur.

Normally, I would never consider "accidents" in a real meta game match up, but ICs are a different story. Nana will do some stupid stuff if AI gets a hold of her, and since there are two characters, tripping happens twice as much.

And for the record, G&W isn't that hard to grab anymore. Granted, he's not easy to catch, but none harder to grab then the average character. Many of his moves are punishable by grabs, as we just went over.

B-air is one of few that aren't. But b-air isn't nearly as good a move as most of you make it out to be. Its punishable now. A lot of characters (Marth, Wario) would love to take a hit from it, because they can punish it mid move. Its practically unsafe to use that move at all against them. You can be shield grabbed in the middle of it by any character. And sure, maybe not if "properly/safely/correctly spaced." But like I said, spacing that move that way allows for maybe 1-2 of the 6 hits to actually come within reach of your opponent, which doesn't even apply shield pressure, which is half the reason why that move was/is so good.

I suppose right now I could see the match up at 55/45, IC's, although I really believe its more 60/40. But it is by no means in G&Ws favor. G&W can hardly use any of the same tactics against ICS as he can against other characters. And any character that forces the opponent to totally revamp how he plays in the matchup simply MUST have the advantage.

 

[lain]

If you think G&W vs DDD and IC are even to in G&W's advantage, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[UTDZac]

If you think G&W vs DDD and IC are even to in G&W's advantage, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

Lain, I think you have the advantage when YOU (as DDD or IC) play against anybody else G&W. You know the matchup well.

But when the boards want to come up with matchup numbers for G&W against other characters, it has to be in the general sense. You can't include "players" in matchups. I personally think that when I play against Snakes I have the advantage, but that doesn't make the general matchup any better for a generic G&W.

Personally I think the DDD matchup goes to whoever has more play experience. And the IC matchup depends on how well the G&W doesn't get grabbed and watches his aerial lag. Idk, it's hard to put numbers on the general matchup.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

*what was said*.

I see matchups as closer to the meta game ones. It comes down to when the best ddd (lain) plays the best G&Ws (practically everyone on these boards) and beats them, the match up has to be in ddd's favor. We all don't play the same. I like to think I play quite uniquely from most G&Ws (if being that unique is even possible, being that you can't be too diverse with G&W.) It shows that d3 can get around anything a G&W throws at him.

We should wait til A2Z and Mr. put in their responses, but I'm thinking its about time we redecide these matchups.

 

[Hylian]

I see matchups as closer to the meta game ones. It comes down to when the best ddd (lain) plays the best G&Ws (practically everyone on these boards) and beats them, the match up has to be in ddd's favor. We all don't play the same. I like to think I play quite uniquely from most G&Ws (if being that unique is even possible, being that you can't be too diverse with G&W.) It shows that d3 can get around anything a G&W throws at him.

We should wait til A2Z and Mr. put in their responses, but I'm thinking its about time we redecide these matchups.

Or you know...it could be that Lain is better then all the GW players. It's not like GW is represented very well or does well at tournaments. Deciding match-ups based off players rather then looking at the tools the characters have to deal with each other is shallow.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

Or you know...it could be that Lain is better then all the GW players. It's not like GW is represented very well or does well at tournaments. Deciding match-ups based off players rather then looking at the tools the characters have to deal with each other is shallow.

If Lain is meta game, then lain is meta game. Period. I find it hard to believe that not a single game and watch on these boards couldn't beat lain's dedede because they were all worse, that much worse, then lain, not due to the fact that its a bad match up.

 

[UTDZac]

If Lain is meta game, then lain is meta game. Period. I find it hard to believe that not a single game and watch on these boards couldn't beat lain's dedede because they were all worse, that much worse, then lain, not due to the fact that its a bad match up.

I'm pretty certain I could beat Lain's DDD in tournament.

At Whobo he made the claim that he's never lost to a G&W with his DDD. I challenged that claim with a $1 MM.

Game 1 I two-stocked him on Battlefield.
Game 2 I lost on Rainbow Cruise.
Game 3 I lost on Frigate.

To me it felt pretty even. I honestly don't think Lain had the advantage over me, or I had to advantage over him (except game 1). You can say what you want about Lain's DDD, but imo I don't think it's anything special when considering the G&W matchup. The fact is he just knows that matchup really well and was able to adjust to my simple playstyle in the only 3 games we ever played. He adjusted his playstyle, and that's what helped him win over my aggressive playstyle of G&W.

 

[Hylian]

If Lain is meta game, then lain is meta game. Period. I find it hard to believe that not a single game and watch on these boards couldn't beat lain's dedede because they were all worse, that much worse, then lain, not due to the fact that its a bad match up.

No single person is "Meta Game"

That is insane. Lain isn't even the best DDD, atomsk is. CO18 is up there as well.

And yes, I believe lain is better then every single GW player. I mean he's one of the best players in the nation. GW doesn't have that kind of rep.

Keep in mind I think GW vs DDD is even and I've been saying that forever, it's just you are using really bad points to argue and it's annoying :/. You should note trends, not single cases when providing evidence supporting your claim. It's a shallow point of view that won't get you anywhere or convince anyone.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Falco Is probably 50/50 Imo because of the Chain That puts G&W to high damage easily, but most of G&W's ariels destroy him so it certainly isnt in falco's favor. After the chain and a couple more lasers and grabs, a well spaced fsmash will probably take a G&W stock.

High damage? 36%, not quite high damage.
And a couple more lasers can be bucketed at long range, power shielded, air dodged or just jumped over. Grabs aren't that frequently gained because of good bair spacing, which makes the chaingrab less probable too.

I just don't see how Falco is not in a disadvantage here. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'd be happy to stand corrected

 

[Motel Vacaville of the West]

What makes Lain DDD up to par to destroy G&W's so easily?

Excuse my WC ignorance, but what makes this match-up more in his favor, and why aren't other DDDs taking note.

P.S. Wario should be the next match-up discussed.

 

[UTDZac]

Speaking of matchup discussions, I was wondering if it would be a better idea to have a separate thread for each character. Sure it sounds like a lot of threads, but not all of them will be THAT active all of the time.

Reasons for separate threads:
1) We won't have to problem of jumping around who we are discussing next. Look at us right now, we've been talking about Falco, DDD, and IC all during the Olimar discussion. We do this because people want to discuss matchups but not be limited to the "Current discussion." When people have questions about a matchup where else can they go to ask? Make a brand new thread? Post in this thread even though it's not on topic?

2) Individual threads makes it easy for someone to look up detailed information about a matchup. Right now I can see the general discussion OBM has put up, but if I wanted to read through everyone's thoughts i coudlnt because they are buried in this huge thread. We can also put links to the individual threads on this OP and leave this thread stickied. A G&W matchup discussion directory, if you will.

3) Also I think it would be a good idea to include frame data (probably just startup frames) on other characters in their respective threads. I find it very useful to know how fast a move can come out when trying to beat it with one of my moves. For example, snakes ftilt comes out 2 frames faster than my dtilt, therefore I cannot win if we keep trying to clank the same move together. If we put frame data in this thread it would get really big really fast.

If you want I can head up this project or someone else like OBM/Hylian, up to you guys. We own the G&W boards, let's make them look nice.



tl;dr Separate threads for each character means more organized discussion.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

To me it felt pretty even. I honestly don't think Lain had the advantage over me, or I had to advantage over him (except game 1). You can say what you want about Lain's DDD, but imo I don't think it's anything special when considering the G&W matchup. The fact is he just knows that matchup really well and was able to adjust to my simple playstyle in the only 3 games we ever played. He adjusted his playstyle, and that's what helped him win over my aggressive playstyle of G&W.

Keep in mind I think GW vs DDD is even and I've been saying that forever, it's just you are using really bad points to argue and it's annoying :/. You should note trends, not single cases when providing evidence supporting your claim. It's a shallow point of view that won't get you anywhere or convince anyone.

So this whole argument set aside, why isn't it 50/50 if everyone feels this is so even?

I use Lain as an example because he's the best dedede around here, and he's the best example someone could use, being that he's played the best G&W's. We could argue basic facts all day and not get anywhere. Everything looks beautiful on paper. It doesn't mean jack **** if you can't back it up with examples.

You normally won't win a case if you don't cite precedents, catch my drift?

Now, if you have former experiences playing some really good d3's, then by all means, share with us. I'd be more then willing to keep your experiences in mind when I think about this match up.

As a good friend of mine says: Match ups are just two stupid numbers that add up to 100.

They don't mean anything if you can't back them up.

EDIT:

*what was said*

Not a half bad idea actually. But it would probably be a better idea to not do it with every character, and just the more controversial ones.

I mean, match ups are always changing, especially around when the tier lists are updated. You get more people playing one character, less playing another, and experiences with new methods and characters change.

If you all wouldn't mind, I'd be more then willing to start this off. I've been wanting to contribute somehow to these boards, but I haven't really found a way.
Although this means there will be quite a few threads posted by me at first, but like Zac says, they won't all be active.
Plus, more or less, this is my fault all these discussions are going on.

Double EDIT: And if that's cool with everyone if I do it, I could start later tonight, although I probly wouldn't do every character tonight, just a couple, see how the set up goes, take suggestions and such for what to fix about them, then base the rest off those, although I would need help setting up links to them through this OP.

 

[Hydruz]

Er, by controversial do you mean All of his disadvantages towards his 60/40 advantages that some people think could be neutral or disadvantaged?

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

Er, by controversial do you mean All of his disadvantages towards his 60/40 advantages that some people think could be neutral or disadvantaged?

any decently disputable matchups. Pretty much any disadvantages, and most neutrals. They rest are kind of "easy advantage, however so easy doesn't really matter" or just basic, really unneeded to be discussed.

Of course, anyone who'd really want a thread on any character would be more then welcome to suggest we make one.

Still waitin on a yea or nay for this. I don't want to feel like I'm spamming if most don't think of it as much of an idea.

 

[UTDZac]

@JKBUK: I'm about to start the project, just waiting for the okay with something first. I plan on only making a few threads for it, mostly for just the characters that seem to go even with G&W or seem to have the advantage on him.

 

[omegablackmage]

thumbs up, like the idea

 

[A1lion835]

The kirby boards are now discussing Mr.Game & Watch! Please go here to help with the discussion: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236395.

 

[LeePuff]

ok hearing all this talk about DDD being even with g&w has me thinking a bit. As far as i understand a few people think lain has faced all the best G&w's there is, but this isn't true (at the defense of myself). I personally think that G&W has the advantage because of my daily practice i have had with Westcoast's DDD teba. Living in the same house with one of the best DDD's there is, i have had plenty of opportunites to observe the match. It's come to my attention that G&W is in the advantage because of his ability to combo DDD get that high percent and punish his recovery. DDD on the other hand has to get G&W at high percent with grabs and bairs which can be very difficult to get against G&W.

 

[cutter]

I definately want to play DDD more; I MMed Moochero a month ago at G.O. and he soundly beat my G&W (well... first game I accidentially ran into his fully charged Fsmash that had extended hitlag from a Waddle Dee which set the tone for the entire match) making me switch to my MK mid-match which turned into a really close match after that (but by then it was too late). A lot of this chalks up to matchup inexperience against DDD, but I don't want to john too much

It's so god**** frustrating how DDD's grab game limits your options against him. Linear stages benefit DDD obviously and even though G&W doesn't get chaingrabbed the Bthrows really add up over time.

It's probably like 55:45 max in G&W's favor and I would agree with 50:50 if the overall stage selection is limited like it is here in OR.

 

[omegablackmage]

will always be in gw's favor, imo. Yeah, technically ddd has an answer to shut down all of gw's approaches, however, one mistake from ddd usually means 50% for him, which sucks for him. Of course gw owns the edgeguarding aspect of this matchup and even the ko's if the gw is careful to avoid the uptilt. At least 55/45, probably still 6/4.

im gunna change the title of the thread to general discussion, since we just seem to be discussing random chars.

 

[However]

o.o This has actually helped well since I don't pay much attention in the first place ^^;

 

[jayboi221]

Just saying for stage to use against ice climbers is yoshi island easy to move around and to avoid getting
ChainGrab

 

[LuVr]

I never seemed to have a problem approaching a DDD, but then again my lack of experience against a DDD mainer has left me susceptible to the possibility of being annhilated. Shout out to OBM long time no talk man hows MA treating you?

 

[NatP]

So, all I retained from this is that I should cp rc for almost every match, and when that's banned pick either jungle japes (except against falco) or norfair (except against diddy). Is that about right?

 

[UTDZac]

1) I never use RC as a counterpick.
2) As G&W, japes against falco isn't bad imo.
3) Why wouldn't you take diddy to norfair?

 

[PhantomX]

If you're GW and you survive those spikes from Falco, you already won the match, assuming you know how to bucket brake.

 

[NatP]

I wouldn't take diddy there because I saw a thread once that said that diddy's best stage was norfair, over on the diddy boards. It seemed legit to me. :/ I tried finding it but I can't find it right now for some odd reason.

 

[LouBega]

it's really not. take diddy there. even if it is somehow good for diddy now it is still better for you and you can definitely control the match.

 

[Vinnie]

Just saying for stage to use against ice climbers is yoshi island easy to move around and to avoid getting
ChainGrab

For a neutral, I'd say Lylat Cruise. For a counterpick, Brinstar severely outclasses ANYTHING. They're helpless, they just flail around. It's so funny.

 

[Terra~]

Well congrats on finishing match-ups :O First board I see finished thus far. Unlike the Fox or Falcon boards who seems to have...none discussed? Anyways, I'm working on a huge match-up chart based on the thoughts of every board. I'm going through every board alphabetically, prompting people to keep up the good work but...evidently, work here is pretty much done. Excellent work!

 

[Ruuku]

Against ICs, if Norfair isn't banned, I would CP it.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

i try to cp norfair for about any matchup.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm more of a Frigate abuser, but yeah, Norfair is pretty pro for G&W.

Just...watch out for Olimar mainly.

 

[The Nameless Wanderer]

Pokemon Trainer is discussing Mr.Game and Watch. We would like to ask for your help on this Match Up .


http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=7853057

 

[UTDZac]

I vote that G&W vs. Snake is more in favor for G&W than MK vs. Snake being in MK's favor.