Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory

[omegablackmage]

absolutely learn gw's glide toss, it helps a lot to get in on diddy.

things that make that matchup bad for us are really simple mechanics. Bad roll/get up roll, slow get up attack, you have to be very very close to the banana to pick it up, we don't have a sweeping dair to cover ourselves while picking bananas up off the ground (like ddd, mk, wario for a few examples), and of course no good projectile to help pressure diddy.

our pros are absolutely dominating diddy who has no bananas and our edgeguard game, but overall we're controlled to much on the stage to really get diddy in those positions very often. Still a 4/6 matchup imo.

 

[A2ZOMG]

ShN-air picks up Bananas pretty well, and really, learn to catch Bananas with Z since that's the safest way under any circumstances.

If you can shieldcamp as he banana tosses and then use a Banana intelligently, the matchup starts becoming pretty nice. When you have a Banana, either hold it (if you're at a KO percent for Bucket Braking), throw it up, or wait until he started an attack before throwing it. And then of course remember to use them to add to your own ledge pressure game. Diddy is much more manageable when he only has control of one Banana.

You'll get punished for making mistakes and not knowing the matchup, but otherwise, Diddy first has to get past your shieldcamping before he can pose any real threat.

 

[/~Dogma~\]

marth has a big adv over g&w

marth can literally still there and punish anything G&W does

 

[Hydruz]

Really? I didnt know that.

What was the point of this?

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

Because half the G&Ws in here don't know what the hell they're talking about half the time, sometimes people need to point out the obvious.

 

[A2ZOMG]

marth has a big adv over g&w

marth can literally still there and punish anything G&W does

Marth can't punish G&W's F-air very easily. G&W's Smashes are safe on Marth's shield. G&W's D-tilt is faster than Marth's and has pretty good range. This matchup is not simple for Marth at all if the G&W knows baiting. ANY time Marth does ANYTHING, he risks eating a F-air.

Nobody is denying Marth has the advantage, but this matchup isn't nearly as bad in practice than it is on paper.

G&W doesn't lose anything worse than 4/6 for that matter.

 

[Lord Chair]

Continuing the discussion on the Marth matchup started in the Q&A thread (sorry for that):

Aggressive Marths are the ones you can bait all the time. Against perfect spacing, you advance to cover ground where Marth retreats and control the stage back at him. Predicting his next aerial and powershielding also works well.

U-air and Up-B can mess up Marth depending on spacing too. Keep in mind the wind hitboxes, which can launch Marth in the air putting him in a less favorable position.

Don't forget powershielding either. On powershield, of course, G&W should be able to land any Smash he wants. And then Up-B and U-air are also underestimated options. G&W is also able to technically D-smash out of shield against an aerial F-air if he has good timing/prediction.

completely false. D-tilt's frame advantage is -7, as is its startup time. Between D-tilts, you have 14 frames to punish. If Marth commits to another D-tilt, he can get Jabbed or D-tilted out of shield. Marth can snuff predicted options with Forward-B and Jab, which are significantly less safe on block by far, and they technically trade with G&W's Jab out of shield.

Otherwise everything else is pretty much correct.

This matchup isn't 65/35 Marth or 7/3 Marth. It's just 6/4 at worst.

I noticed you put a lot of emphasize on perfect shielding, would you really say perfect shielding everything that's coming at you is that easy?

I wouldn't know about G&W dsmash punish, I'm kind of skeptical about it but I'll test it.

As for dtilt, it's kind of controversial depending on whether or not the dtilt was spaced, I believe the -7 frame advantage is only true if it's a nontipper without using the IASA frames, let's take a look:

Down Tilt
Hit: 7-13
End: 47
IASA: 21
Shield Stun: 11
~Shield Hit Lag: 4
ADVANTAGE: -7
Tipper Shield Stun: 11
~Shield Hit Lag: 11
ADVANTAGE: -14

Tippers are actually worse in advantage, but they outrange G&W's dtilt, grab and jab eliminating those options from G&W's arsenal. I have tried to do a lot of things against repeated dtilting in the past, and it never really worked out unless I jumped out of shield, which is beat by jab or whatever. This issue is rather vague, but I can conclude the situation is in Marth's advantage. I'll test it later.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I just read through your frame data really quickly, and F-air has -25 advantage.

G&W's D-smash out of shield is Frame 22. Heck, his U-smash out of shield is frame 25 (which can possibly hit before Marth can initiate an airdodge or F-air).

 

[Lord Chair]

I just read through your frame data really quickly, and F-air has -25 advantage.

G&W's D-smash out of shield is Frame 22. Heck, his U-smash out of shield is frame 25 (which can possibly hit before Marth can initiate an airdodge or F-air).

Fair
Hit: 4-8
End: 34
Shield Stun: 10
~Shield Hit Lag: 5
ADVANTAGE: -25
ADVANTAGE (SHFF): -4
Tipper Shield Stun: 13
~Shield Hit Lag: 11
ADVANTAGE: -28
ADVANTAGE (SHFF): -8
SHFF Fair Lag: 8
SH Fair Fast Falled Lag: 3

Just posting so that it's more clear for others.

Tippers have less advantage, but provide more shield pushback. I believe enough to make G&W's dsmash not capable of punishing a Fair. Frame data clearly notes that FFFair are unpunishable when tipped.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I said "aerial F-air" keep in mind. Not shff. If you're intentionally trying to space shfffairs, I can attempt to predict that and just F-air before it comes out.

If you're not perfectly spacing shfffair near G&W you're probably getting shieldgrabbed.

Anyhow, the main point is that even though this matchup sucks, G&W can pretty much diss Marth by randomly throwing out F-airs in between Marth's attacks.

 

[/~Dogma~\]

GnW Cant punish marths full hop fair, even if u perfect shield it and do ur fair.

 

[cutter]

marth has a big adv over g&w

marth can literally still there and punish anything G&W does

A perfect example of why matchups should never, EVER be based on theorycraft.

 

[A2ZOMG]

GnW Cant punish marths full hop fair, even if u perfect shield it and do ur fair.

You sir...are not very smart. if you fullhop F-air, then G&W gets to U-air, which is in short, something you don't want G&W to do against you.

Besides, fullhop N-air punishes Marth's fullhop F-air. Not to mention Up-B. Duh.

Fullhop F-air is easily the dumbest thing Marth can do vs G&W.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

You sir...are not very smart. if you fullhop F-air, then G&W gets to U-air, which is in short, something you don't want G&W to do against you.

Besides, fullhop N-air punishes Marth's fullhop F-air. Not to mention Up-B. Duh.

Fullhop F-air is easily the dumbest thing Marth can do vs G&W.

uair? its called spacing. Just because its full hopped doesn't mean it won't be spaced. Uair is a stupid move to use in that situation.

and i'm relatively sure marths fair breaks G&W's nair. Up-b, however, may work.


This marth knows the match up better then any other marth in MI, i'll tell you that right now.

 

[Lord Chair]

uair? its called spacing. Just because its full hopped doesn't mean it won't be spaced. Uair is a stupid move to use in that situation.

and i'm relatively sure marths fair breaks G&W's nair. Up-b, however, may work.


This marth knows the match up better then any other marth in MI, i'll tell you that right now.

Yet he does not know that fullhopping Fairs isn't that safe. UpB punish is pretty much guaranteed, Nair does in fact get Marth even if he spaces well, Marth's Fair does outrange it horizontally and diagonally, but not from straight below.

Marth doesn't want to get above G&W, fullhopping is viable but in no way safe.

 

[A2ZOMG]

uair? its called spacing. Just because its full hopped doesn't mean it won't be spaced. Uair is a stupid move to use in that situation.

Drop shield, Dash forward a few steps, SH U-air. No matter how he spaces it on your shield there is pretty much going to be enough time to do this when you consider that there are 29 frames between using two F-airs. Keep in mind, the horizontal reach of U-air extends slightly past G&W's frame too.

Then after you do that, set up your F-air/D-tilt/U-smash/Up-B/etc

 

[/~Dogma~\]

so whats uair gona do?
push me up more?

u rnot gona land anything, and a safe marth isnt gona do two fairs
an aggressive marth may.

and marths fair outranges gw nair

and a good marth is both campy and aggressive.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You're pretty delusional if you think G&W has a hard time landing anything once Marth is above him. N-air beats Marth's F-air from below, and so does Up-B.

You're also pretty stupid arguing the way you are. I never said Marth was doing 2 F-airs. I said there was a 29 frame gap if he CHOSE to do 2 F-airs, which is a huge window for G&W to drop shield and punish.

G&W's U-air also refreshes his other moves. Considering that G&W doesn't have trouble landing F-airs on Marth under most circumstances, having a way to refresh his F-air is very useful of course.

If you do fullhop F-airs a lot against a good G&W, you're basically going to lose. G&W wants you to be above him, since that is where he's the most powerful.

In fact if I really wanted to, I could just double jump F-air if you do fullhop F-airs and that of course will punish you before you can do other moves.

Seriously, what the **** is wrong with you?

 

[Ruuku]

From the Q&A thread:

marth can full hope fair and not get punished..................

Actually, from my matches against Chaz, it really seemed like the only thing he couldn't do with any safety was full hop f.air. However, if he stays at tip range mixing it up between shff f.air, empty sh, dtilt, rising and retreating pivot grabs/boost grabs, he becomes very annoying.

marth just has to get one hit then stay back and wait for the g&w. anything the g&w does or approaches with, marth can punish.

I don't see how this is even possible, unless you think that G&W has to approach with an attack. On most stages, Marth's range/speed over some of G&W's moves isn't significant enough for Marth to be able to camp G&W effectively without getting hit. Not only that, as far as I've experienced, G&W doesn't have trouble dealing with Marth at the edge. So Marth can't really abuse edge camping.

If you're talking about Battlefield-like stages, then Marth's advantage can become larger depending on the player's playstyle and if he knows that matchup well enough. Yet, the G&W may also use the platforms effectively to approach Marth.

 

[cutter]

so whats uair gona do?
push me up more?

I stopped reading there. Refreshing G&W's stale moves with his Uair is so useful especially for unstaling a decayed Fair.

Especially when stale moves are much more of a factor in Brawl than they were in Melee.

 

[Sph34r]

It also immediately disables your ability to surprise the G&W, you're not fast falling after getting that push. I mean, really, Marth is most vulnerable below him when in the air, and G&W is most effective above him in the air. To say that a character who's only option is to DI slightly towards either direction with an airdodge (or if you wanna throw out that laggish dair of yours) will escape damage from a multihit move is silly.

You know, you probably have a better chance with RAR bair then a fullhop fair.

 

[Ruuku]

I stopped reading there. Refreshing G&W's stale moves with his Uair is so useful especially for unstaling a decayed Fair.

Especially when stale moves are much more of a factor in Brawl than they were in Melee

Cutter, you have to realize that a lot of G&W players still focus on April 2008 strategies a.k.a. "b.air/d.air>everything". With that type representation around, it's not surprising that some people can't consider the use of certain moves if they haven't experienced it. You'd think that they would at least test stuff out before making statements.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

approaching with uair?

really?


Just reread that for me. Let it sink in.

its no wonder me and NoJ hate posting here. christ.

I don't see how this is even possible, unless you think that G&W has to approach with an attack. On most stages, Marth's range/speed over some of G&W's moves isn't significant enough for Marth to be able to camp G&W effectively without getting hit. Not only that, as far as I've experienced, G&W doesn't have trouble dealing with Marth at the edge. So Marth can't really abuse edge camping.

If I were Marth and I were playing just to win I'd just stand there and wait for you to do something because I can ftilt everything you do except like bair, which I can counter or dolphin slash

ignoring the whole jumping debate for a second, THAT. Thats why this match up is stupid.


While FAIR is still a fairly amazing (pun intended) move to use against G&W, I gotta say it isn't entirely unpunishable. So I half agree with Dogma. But it seems some of you need to learn how to approach properly with G&W. Maybe thats why its 35:65 here.

 

[Lord Chair]

But it seems some of you need to learn how to approach properly with G&W. Maybe thats why its 35:65 here.

You guys are basing your matchups on what the lesser skilled people think? How very odd.

 

[Ruuku]

You guys are basing your matchups on what the lesser skilled people think? How very odd.

I don't know about other people but I base my matchups on my overall performance against people that play the characters, the stages we played on, my knowledge of the opponent, and his knowledge of what I do and what my character can do. At the moment all of those factors are subject to change. That is why I almost never try to generalize or label matchups. I don't really care if people agree with me but I do try to share whatever I know with other players and take whatever I think can improve my game.

Also, I have no reason to adopt some sort of elitist attitude since I've learn things from people that have never been able to beat me, that have never placed high in tournaments, or that have never been to tournaments. So I can't stop at subjective things like who are the better players.

 

[Sph34r]

Well put. I think it's quite ******** to suggest lesser skilled players are incapable of theorizing anyway, since that doesn't really involve the experience needed to place highly in tournaments as you suggested.

Regardless, why assume people are lesser skilled? You'd have to play them all individually first.

 

[Lord Chair]

Well put. I think it's quite ******** to suggest lesser skilled players are incapable of theorizing anyway, since that doesn't really involve the experience needed to place highly in tournaments as you suggested.

Regardless, why assume people are lesser skilled? You'd have to play them all individually first.

Lesser skilled meaning lesser skilled overall. Including skills in theorycrafting, discussing or otherwise. Why assume people are lesser skilled? Well, if people start about approaching Marth with Nair or Uair...

 

[Ruuku]

Who said anything about approaching with u.air or n.air against Marth? O_o

 

[Sph34r]

Lesser skilled meaning lesser skilled overall. Including skills in theorycrafting, discussing or otherwise. Why assume people are lesser skilled? Well, if people start about approaching Marth with Nair or Uair...

It wasn't suggested to randomly approach with Nair/Uair, only as a counter if the Marth decides to fullhop single fair, which easily gives you enough time to get below and Uair > Nair.

If you're already at it, how would you approach a Marth?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Approaching Marth is basically mind****ing him and randomly F-airing. Works like a charm.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The Link boards are talking about you. Feel free to stop by.

 

[A2ZOMG]

vs Link is sorta like vs Snake, except he doesn't do 21% out of shield, doesn't kill you until 140%, and survives half as long.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

vs Link is sorta like vs Snake, except he doesn't do 21% out of shield, doesn't kill you until 140%, and survives half as long.

He can survive as long as Snake provided you don't gimp him.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Toon Link boards are rediscussing the game and watch matchup at our boards. Please contribute. Here's the thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244722

 

[Lord Chair]

Who said anything about approaching with u.air or n.air against Marth? O_o

Random people here and there, wasn't necessarily referring to this particular thread.

 

[Hydruz]

He can survive as long as Snake provided you don't gimp him.

gimping link is inevitable, its just gonna happen. dont get to air happy because those bombs are a pain, make sure to use alot of uair. dsmash is great in this MU.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

So, Zelda boards started analyzing how well you and we work as a team. If you could come and share your opinions that'd be great. Here's the link for the thread:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=232505

 

[A2ZOMG]

I did some quick frame analysis and I thought I would point out, B-air -> Jab cannot be shieldgrabbed by Samus, ZSS, or Yoshi. Yoshi in fact can't punish this out of shield at all. If you have guts, you can try to B-air -> Grab if he shields the entire thing.

Other tether grabbers like Link, Lucas, and TL, I don't think you can Jab, but you can spotdodge.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ganons are discussing G&W.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=202473

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Jesus Christ. Do you guys never post here, or did you just get bombarded to hell with MU requests from other character boards? *looks* Wow, you never post in here.

Wolf boards are discussing you. Please, don't be ignorant like other boards. Wolf is underestimated. We're looking for people that have legit MU experience against a good Wolf and don't just assume Wolf sucks. If you've got legit exp, we beg you're assistance. Thank you.