Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory

[AndrewCarlson]

MK vs G&W is 6/4 MK, but no worse.

vs Marth btw goes 65/35 MK in that matchup.

I believe the Marth boards just recently changed the Meta Knight match-up from 40:60 to 35:65, making him the only solid disadvantage for Marth.

And we have the Game & Watch match-up as 60:40 in Marth's favor.

 

[omegablackmage]

Pikachu: (65/35)

General Matchup:

• Pikachu's strengths are found in a variety of places. Fast at times, strong at times, and really annoying at other times. Underestimating pikachu in any of these fields could prove to be deadly for gw.
• Pika's priority is sparce, if that. Most of his range/disjointed properties are probably only found on his forward smash and his down b. Most of pika's attacks can be outranged by gw pretty easily
• His kill potential is pretty specific, but not to be taken lightly. Forward smash is very strong when he hits close with it, so this will only be used if you put yourself in a laggy position. If he hits with the tip of it, it does little knockback so not to worry there. Other kill moves are his upsmash (very strong/fast, probably most used kill move), down b (used well out of uptilts/upsmashes for low percent kills), and nair (only if fresh and the first few frames of the attack).
• Pika has a pretty darn good recovery, with the use of forward b and up b together. Forward b has more vertical lift it seems than the last game and can grab the edge out of it. Up b seems to stun a bit more than it used to and can still get him back from very silly situations. Overall, pika is pretty hard to edgeguard because his quick attack is so versatile.
• The only viable methods for pika to edgeguard are to pester you with jolts, toss out a down b near the stage, or try for a risky aerial like a nair or something. All of these are either easy to avoid or can be neutralized by a nair, not too much to worry about here.
• Combos from pika are interesting to say the least. Quick attacks into your shield and be canceled by a jump to nair for some quick damage. Mainly combos will be probably set up by landing a jolt and then probably a running grab. Overall pika's approach becomes limited w/o any priority/range or a projectile that isn't canceled easily.
• Combo's on your side are pretty run of the mill. Pika has a pretty bad buffered roll and tech roll out of a dthrow, so tech chasing will be pretty easy. Up airs work well to keep him in the air just watch for sporatic thunders (they probably woudn't want to do this, it'll leave them open). Everything else is really stylistic based as far as what moves you use when.

General Strategies:

• Pika likes to use a lot of shield pressure techniques, so watch out for them. If he quick attacks your sheild a lot just hold out or up b to get him off of you. He shouldn't be able to do them in so much succession that your sheild will wear out, up b is a real savior in this department.
• Against his recovery, its possible to dtilt him out of his forward be assuming he doesn't space it pixel perfect. Other than that my general preference is throwing out a nair, covers a lot of ground and will assuredly hit him out of it. Another option would be to try and bait him to land above the stage with his up b and try to up air punish his freefall.
• Personally i feel as though the bucket should only be used to catch down b's from a distance, jolts from a distance, or mid ranged jolts if you have low percents. Otherwise, you'll find yourself dead from an upsmash. I think it is worth it to take two upsmashes at low damage, when the bucket is full, thats always a free stock.
• Overall, there isn't a whole lot to this matchup. You'll find that you'll win in almost all of your approaches, as you'll either have way more range than him, or he just doesn't have the ooshield options to punish you. Grabs will destroy him, and he's pretty light so he's very susceptible to early deaths.

Stages:

• Rainbow cruise would hurt pika a lot, but could also backfire because of the high reach of thunder. Of course if you can nab jungle japes, you'd be golden.
• Avoid low ceilings, and opens spaces like corneria/fd.

 

[omegablackmage]

double post because i can!

toon link 6/4
mk 4/6
snake 4/6
wario 55/45
marth 45/55
diddy 4/6
zss 55/45

how does everyone feel about these?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think it's better than before. Maybe you should discuss the Marth match-up with some Marth players (or Hylian).

Ike isn't too hard for GnW. The only thing you should watch out for, is not to roll. His hitboxes are huge and hurt a lot, esppecially GnW.
I think it's 60:40 in G%Ws favour...but idk too much about it. I'll play a good Ike today so I can tell you a bit more...

 

[Neb]

Have we done DDD?

 

[Hylian]

double post because i can!

How does everyone feel about these?

I disagree with most of them :/.

Here:
toon link 50-50
mk 40-60
snake 30-70
wario 50-50
marth 35-65
diddy 45-55
zss 55-45

 

[napZzz]

I disagree with most of them :/.

Here:
toon link 50-50
mk 40-60
snake 30-70
wario 50-50
marth 35-65
diddy 45-55
zss 55-45

I like what hylian posted. Snake vs. game and watch isn't even CLOSE to even, or maybe even 6/4. You can go on and on and on all day long about how uair ***** him or something but its easy to get to the ground by FF and air dodging without getting touched. Plus snake kills you at like, 90% where as you kill him much later than that...also nades snuff all your approaches out ~_~ (bair..)

 

[jiggly_owns_u]

i too believe snake vs G&W is waaaaay in snake's favor, but i am just some random G&W player so what would i kno

 

[A2ZOMG]

Snake doesn't die significantly later than G&W really.

Your Smashes can be used to punish him has he heads towards the ground if you space right and those kill at low percents no matter who you are. F-air is pretty good on him especially as he recovers.

Snake is also better off using B-air to get to the ground as opposed to air dodging...because if he air dodges and G&W reads it right, he will get hit. B-air usually trades hits with G&W's attacks.

Also, he can't really F-tilt when he's using grenade shielding, and his approaches aren't all that reliable. Nothing is really making you approach him if he's grenade camping really.

As for Ike:
Ike forums say matchup is even, but I don't believe them really.

Ike is the kind of character that has Jab and F-air, and that's really it.

Jab can be punished with B-air.

If he camps F-air, you might as well camp back with Chef because he sucks at dealing with projectiles.

He's easily comboed due to his lack of any reliable combo breaker attacks.

Dunno what else though. In this matchup the main thing is you need to be careful not to jump into the **** recklessly. If he has a full shield and you B-air, you will get punished with Jab, and you don't want that to happen now do you?

 

[DMG]

I disagree with most of them :/.

Here:
toon link 50-50
mk 40-60
snake 30-70
wario 50-50
marth 35-65
diddy 45-55
zss 55-45

I like those, but I would put TL as 55 : 45 or 60 : 40 for G&W. I should go play Santi with G&W though, I've only tackled him with Wario :D

 

[Pikaville]

What about Sonic?I played a very good Sonic online and I found it very hard to fight him......stupid gay auto aim moves.......

He is a really annoying character to fight.

 

[Tero.]

*subscribes*

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sonic is a really, really, really ****ing gay matchup that is in G&W's favor by about 65/35 or 7/3. I've played this matchup quite a bit, and if you play it wrong, you will get owned, but frankly, Sonic doesn't actually have what it takes to compete with G&W if he choses to play gay.

Shieldcamping works pretty well against Sonic. If he tries to spindash into you and follow up with an aerial and you shield, you can punish him with Up-B out of shield. Even if he chooses to stop short, he's not going to easily punish you either way if you just Up-B.

If he's in a corner, B-air and he pretty much can't do anything about it.

Homing Attack is punishable with Up-B out of shield.

His recovery just begs to be punished if he recovers from below. D-air or Smashes will own him if he goes from there. You can try to also skyrocket him with the U-air if you think he will go high IIRC, and U-air stall is good against him because his aerial mobility has horrendous acceleration.

Throwing out F-smash is fairly safe in this matchup since it can't be easily punished.

Sonic can't do a thing if you edgecamp right since you can drop down with a N-air and jump back to the ledge with an Up-B, and this will pretty much beat his attacks 100% of the time.

Most of your kills should come from either edgeguarding him, or punishing him has he comes down with a U-smash IMO.

Most of the time, he will kill you with F-smash or D-smash if you really really badly space an aerial, or with U-air near skybox if you are really really dumb and let him hit you with it.

From what I've seen, a lot of this matchup has a learning curve in understanding Sonic's mobility options. When you understand those better, timing the right attack to punish him becomes easier, and generally most other characters kill him earlier than he kills them (unless he gets an edgeguard KO).

In case you aren't aware, Sonic's number one quality is punishing. Just pointing out.

 

[Rajam]

Against Ike chef helps a lot, but dont be stupid to throw the food to an Ike charging side+b, unless you are good at baiting, so you can proceed with Dtilt/Bair/Dair
Also remember Ike's B > G&W Usmash, so dont wait with that under Ike; Also G&W key and Ike's Usmash trade hits, usually With G&W receiving the worst part
I think is 65:35 G&W favor or even more... Bair is your friend

 

[Pikaville]

I wanna take down a guy called mastashakes Ike.This should help nicely.

Also thankyou A2ZOMG for the Sonic info.

Much appreciated.

 

[omegablackmage]

Ike: (6/4)

General Matchup:

• Ike's claim to fame comes from his excellent strength and range. Even gw will find himself outmatched many times in terms of reach and kill strength.
• Places where Ike will often outrange you are his nair, fair, fsmash, and upsmash. Most of his other moves you will find that you can work around, however these are not guaranteed. Ike's moves have surprising amounts of priority, thus even moves like uptilt and ftilt etc can find their own ways around your moves.
• Kill moves, where do I begin? I find that fsmash, upsmash, uptilt, and bair kill the most often, however just about all of his moves could be used to kill with the exception of his jab. These moves aren't particularly fast however, so at least you have the fact that they are telegraphed on your side.
• Ike will either side b when above the stage to recover or dj to up b when below. Side b can grab the edge, thus the best way to combat this move is to either hog if you think they will go for the edge, or simply get in their way away from the stage and they will plummet to their death. To beat the up b, the only thing i have found is simple edgehogs, or run off the stage past ike and then up b beneath him to snipe the ledge from him.
• Other than a risky fair, you will find that ike is pretty much unable to edgeguard gw. It is possible for ike to dair off the edge too, keep this in mind as well.
• Ike's combos are incredibly limited, given the nature of his character. Nair cancels very nicely upon landing to jab, which he might be able to chase to another aerial.
  Jab can also link to a lot of things, such as uptilts, grabs, and more jabs (cancelled) so watch out.
• Ike is fairly heavy, and has poor air movement. This allows up air juggling and nair combos to be used to a good extent. Ike rolls and techs pretty far, thus making it fairly difficult to tech chase him, dthrows should still be used sparingly, per usual.

General Strategies:

• Some ike's will camp near the edge and up b when they have the advantage, regrabbing the edge. This can be dealt with by up b'ing underneath them and forcing them to the edge and to eat a fair.
• Make sure to keep an eye on their approach. It is incredibly difficult to shield any of ike's approaches because they have enough force to push gw back out of grab range. Never try to counter their fair/nair approaches with any of your own aerials, you will lose every time.
• You'll find that a very defensive style is needed to beat ike. Annoying them with up airs and forcing them to use laggy aerials in bad situations is the key to punishing ike. Also, the use of the chef would help alot because ike is slow and has no projectile him self or quick aerials to cancel out the chef parts.
• Try to force ike into a situation off the stage. Either fthrows or bthrows, dtilts are all excellent to push ike off the stage.
• Overall this matchup is very simple. Ike's approaches are very simplistic and linear/telegraphed, thus you shouldn't have too much trouble punishing him.

Stages:

• Just about any stage would hurt ike. Rainbow cruise of course works well, along with frigate and other stages with missing ledges or quirks.
• Personally i would avoid norfair maybe, or simply neutral stages.

 

[Hylian]

GW vs DDD

I rate this match 50-50. GW has the advantage when it comes to dealing damage, but in terms of actually killing D3 has a huge advantage. It's really hard to hit a campy D3 with a smash attack, and since he is so heavy nothing else you have will really kill him. You have to really outplay good DDD players and can't really rely on a lot of GW's inherant character strengths to do the work for you.

Attacking D3's shield for the most part is a bad idea. They can grab you out of almost anything and then just pummle and bthrow you for almost 20% a grab. Use Dtilt a LOT in this match-up, but only against D3's shield to make him roll backwards. If D3 ever takes to the air(he shouldn't much..generally D3 should just be grab happy this match and camp a lot) then take to him with nair. Nair beats almost everything D3 has if you approach from below.

Killing D3 can be very frustrating however and you will take a lot of punishment trying to do it. Watch out for his utilt. It has good range and invincibility frames. Being utilted out of your bair is the worst feeling ever . Retreating full hopped bairs are good in this match-up, so do them a lot.

 

[TechnoMonster]

I find that game and watch excels off the stage in this matchup and that's where his advantage mostly lies. You can easily put DeDeDe in a tough spot with a well-placed F-air, and if he recovers to the stage you can just f-smash him or D-smash him for free with a well timed airdodge to put him back off.

On the stage I hate to disagree with Hylian but you can take plenty of risks against DeDeDe, and in particular playing relatively fast but spacey and crossing up a lot to take advantage of missed grabs is good. As far as the U-tilt goes, that's the only real method DeDeDe has to KO a good G+W so just avoid it like the plague.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I almost never get killed by DDD's U-tilt honestly. Usually, I find that DDD kills you with a surprise aerial that is less diminished than some of his other attacks. His U-tilt is really telegraphed like ROB's U-smash, so it's really not hard to keep yourself in a position where he doesn't find it safe to U-tilt.

I dunno about you, but I personally think G&W has the advantage in kill moves, and DDD has the slight advantage in damage dealing mainly because of his ******** shieldgrab if you don't shield poke him or if he spotdodges your B-air completely. Off stage however, this is where both factors are in G&W's favor. His recovery almost always eats a hit from G&W. If he recovers from below or goes for the ledge, you get a free D-air hit on his recovery. If he goes above, there is the obvious punish him as he lands. DDD really can't chase G&W off stage that well on the other hand, so he doesn't get nearly as many hits on G&W off stage as the other way around.

If he tries to spam Waddle Dees to camp, you do get a free Bucket from Waddle Doos, and that also is pretty ****.

I've beaten Teh_Spammerer online when he used DDD, although I'll admit he was lagging particularly badly those times. =(

Oh yeah, and I dunno, I am pretty sure I have played against DDDs on the AiB ladder and won.

I still think it's in G&W's favor, maybe 6/4. His grab range is a chore to read and punish, but G&W overall has more control over what happens.

Btw, I suggest we do Ganondorf after this matchup. Because of this.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's 5/5 unless the Dedede is stupid enough to throw a Waddle Doo.

Dedede can just camp and when GnW attempts to do a bair he can stop it with fair. Also even without his CG his grabs still are too h4xsome =(

If you somehow manage to juggle him, you have a better position than him. It's a very evn match-up. GnW has really to go all out to get through Dededes defense. And that's not easy. Hitting his shield = bad idea

 

[Buuman]

I highly doubt this matchup is 50/50. Hey maybe it's just me, but I play blackmage often and we've had countless matches of D3 vs. GW. GWs backair (if spaced properly) can't be sheild grabbed by Dedede. On another note D tilt wrecks dedede on the ground. And nair ***** dedede in the air. Also for all you GW players UP AIR ***** dedede because of his lack of air momentum and predictable recovery.

Waddles shouldn't be too much of in issue in this match...if they are then you're forced to approach but it's not going to be that significant of a downside. When D3s recovering, at any percent, go crazy...his recovery is predictable, punish that. I won't spoil some of blackmages edgeguards so u can ask him.

One move that seems to be very hard to punish is D3s down air. I find this is the safest move against GW. Good priority,range, and comes out relatively quick. Other that that D3 really can't hit u with anything else in the air if u space well other than his dangerous back air which u should never forget about, and his up air that u can smash DI out of. In addition D3s up air beats GWs key so look out for that. But through my experience, considering I probably have the most experience in this match up aside from M2k who played hylian, vs. GW this match up has to be 70-30 if not 60-40 at least in GWs favor.

 

[slikvik]

if the ddd doesn't suck, you won't be hitting smashes, so he's hard to kill. you're kinda easy too kill. its 50-50. too lazy to go into detailed analysis lol

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's not a bad idea to attack his shield if you know that it's worn down enough to shield poke him. And it's not hard to figure out when that is viable because of his huge *** frame. You can fullhop F-air if he is baiting you with shield, and he's not going to easily punish it, and if it connects his shield, you have an opportunity to poke him. Just beware of his spot dodge if you're going agressive.

G&W actually outcamps DDD if DDD is not spamming Waddle Dees (which is a bad idea for him in this matchup) because he's so huge and lacks any real approach that he's easy to hit with Chef. I find that it works. Besides, once you have Chef out, it will stop any other projectiles from hitting you if he tries to camp back. On BF, it might be a bit more difficult to camp against DDD though, but if you get him above you on one of the platforms, and then start using Chef, you'll likely connect with all the hits for pretty substantial damage.

 

[omegablackmage]

ddd boards have this listed as a 60/40 matchup in gw's favor

 

[Steel]

So.. is the Marth guide a bit outdated or is it legit?

I can't see this match any better than 60 40 in Marth's favor. I don't want to interrupt the Dedede discussion so if anyone wants to discuss it else where (pm's/aim/gw discussion thread on marth boards etc) please do so.

 

[slikvik]

If its not neo or azen, its done

 

[Steel]

Well, i'm convinced.

>_>

 

[slikvik]

one liners ftw

 

[Hoser]

Ike: (6/4)

General Matchup:

• Ike's claim to fame comes from his excellent strength and range. Even gw will find himself outmatched many times in terms of reach and kill strength.
• Places where Ike will often outrange you are his nair, fair, fsmash, and upsmash. Most of his other moves you will find that you can work around, however these are not guaranteed. Ike's moves have surprising amounts of priority, thus even moves like uptilt and ftilt etc can find their own ways around your moves.
• Kill moves, where do I begin? I find that fsmash, upsmash, and bair kill the most often, however just about all of his moves could be used to kill with the exception of his jab. These moves aren't particularly fast however, so at least you have the fact that they are telegraphed on your side.
  
  You're forgetting about his U-Tilt. It's a very good killing move, as it's surprisingly fast, the hitbox begins at his feet, it's got priority, and can kill off the top of the screen at early percentages.
  
• Ike will often side b when above the stage to recover, and dj to up b when below. Side b can grab the edge, thus the best way to combat this move is to either hog if you think they will go for the edge, or simply get in their way away from the stage and they will plummet to their death. To beat the up b, the only thing i have found is simple edgehogs, or run off the stage past ike and then up b beneath him to snipe the ledge from him.
  
  You will never see a good Ike use Side B to recover if he's above the stage. As a matter of fact, you will rarely see a good Ike use Quick Draw at all. It's been tested and proven, that if you can make it back to the ledge with QD, it's possible to make it back with Aether as well.
  
  As for Aether, it's usually possible to DI onto the stage with it, assuming you're not too far down. Of course if you are, then yeah, you'll die.
  
• Other than a risky fair, you will find that ike is pretty much unable to edgeguard gw.
  
  Ike's main edgeguarding moves are F-air, D-air, Aether(spikes) and Eruption.(spikes)`
  
• Ike's combos are incredibly limited, given the nature of his character. Nair cancels very nicely upon landing to jab, which he might be able to chase to another aerial. For the most part though, given you di away, ike has almost no combos.
  
  Ike may not have many combos, but he has a crazy jab game. Ike can jab cancel into various moves, such as Jab>Jab>Grab, jab>jab>U-tilt, Jab,Jab,(shield or crouch)Jab, Jab, ect. His jab game can easily put 20~40 (or sometimes even more) on you in seconds.
  
• Ike is fairly heavy, and has poor air movement. This allows up air juggling and nair combos to be used to a good extent. Ike rolls and techs pretty far, thus making it fairly difficult to tech chase him, dthrows should still be used sparingly, per usual.
  
  His movement isn't the fastest, but his air game is phenomenal. All his moves have ridiculous range, his B-air is strong and very fast, his N-air covers all around him, and eats spot dodges, his D-air spikes, and his U-air kills nicely and also eats spot dodges. And of course his F-air is legendary.
  

General Strategies:

• Some ike's will camp near the edge and up b when they have the advantage, regrabbing the edge. This can be dealt with by up b'ing underneath them and forcing them to the edge and to eat a fair.
  
  What? What Ike's have you been playing?
  
• Make sure to keep an eye on their approach. It is incredibly difficult to shield any of ike's approaches because they have enough force to push gw back out of grab range. Never try to counter their fair/nair approaches with any of your own aerials, you will lose every time.
• You'll find that a very defensive style is needed to beat ike. Annoying them with up airs and forcing them to use laggy aerials in bad situations is the key to punishing ike. Also, the use of the chef would help alot because ike is slow and has no projectile him self or quick aerials to cancel out the chef parts.
  
  Laggy aerials? D-air is really the only laggy one. Sure, N-air, U-air, and F-air take a while, but their hitbox lasts almost the whole animation. And as for N-air, you can auto-cancel it.
  
• Try to force ike into a situation off the stage. Either fthrows or bthrows, dtilts are all excellent to push ike off the stage.
• Overall this matchup is very simple. Ike's approaches are very simplistic and linear/telegraphed, thus you shouldn't have too much trouble punishing him.
  
  XD

Stages:

• Just about any stage would hurt ike. Rainbow cruise of course works well, along with frigate and other stages with missing ledges or quirks.
• Personally i would avoid norfair maybe, or simply neutral stages.
  
  Look out for Corneria, or other levels with walls, where we can infinite you.

Yeah, I came here to see what you guys thought of the match-up numbers, because we are currently discussing number of match-up's we've already covered, and a few people were saying 50:50. After looking at what you had though, I couldn't make an accurate estimation. You guys should have asked us to put our input into the match-up, as you missed many of Ike's advantages, such as his jab game, his infinite, and his grab game.

 

[DMG]

Yeah, I came here to see what you guys thought of the match-up numbers, because we are currently discussing number of match-up's we've already covered, and a few people were saying 50:50. After looking at what you had though, I couldn't make an accurate estimation. You guys should have asked us to put our input into the match-up, as you missed many of Ike's advantages, such as his jab game, his infinite, and his grab game.

It's 60 : 40 or higher for G&W. Ike's grab game sucks, his infinite is sooooooooooo situational, and his jab game overall is not really exceptional or anything.

Now as for Dedede, I would say maybe even or in G&W's favor, but not 100% sure of that. Not very many Dedede's to play against in Texas, so it would be kinda hard to tell.

 

[Buuman]

It's 60 : 40 or higher for G&W. Ike's grab game sucks, his infinite is sooooooooooo situational, and his jab game overall is not really exceptional or anything.

Now as for Dedede, I would say maybe even or in G&W's favor, but not 100% sure of that. Not very many Dedede's to play against in Texas, so it would be kinda hard to tell.

This is not anywhere near even. How is this even remotely close? I don't see how some people are saying this matchup goes back and forth. If the GW plays right, it's extremely feasible for GW to not take a hit, whilst destroying dededes sheild, spot dodging and rolls.

Yeah dedede can camp with waddles, but gw is more than capable of sheilding, or jump/airdodging to approach and begin with the pressure game. His nair ***** dedede hard. GWs d tilt is good, for covering a missed arial, and in general a very quick move to throw out every now and then. And edge guarding dedede is laughable...its so predictable is sad. Once dededes offstage, chase his fat *** down.

I feel that this match is 70-30. No more, no less.

 

[omegablackmage]

im going to respond to the ike comments made, (as i read them)

• ya i'll agree that the up tilt is a good kiling move, i really never said it wasn't. Whether its his most used? that i think depends on style.
• If ike players don't use the side b to recover, then that makes his recovery that much worse. You've taken away options, and now i know what path you will use to get back to the stage, and it will be much easier to interrupt you, especially given gw's moveset.
• Fair i see being the only useful one, dair is nice but will put you in a reeaaally bad situation, even if you hit with it. Up b and neutral b are useless against gw, given his recovery path.
• Jab combos i would hardly consider potent. Other than jab, jab, grab throw your not going to be stringing much together with ike.
• DT actually. When i played against him at CH3 he often times would just sit at the edge and just camp with up b. Hes up on the gb ranking, got like 3rd at nintendo world, and im sure he's considered a halfway decent ike.
• Hmm i remember nair killing me many times off the stage because the move took forever to finish, and if gw is below ike, the only move that can compete are nair and dair, both of which are very laggy moves.
• Could you describe this infinite? is it just jab jab duck jab jab?

 

[Gishnak]

Hylian... I'd have to disagree about your assessment of this matchup. I've played several good D3s, including Teba and Aero, and even discussed this matchup briefly with Teba who seemed to agree that it's in gdubs favor.

Gdub can shield pressure D3 with correctly spaced turtles. One of the only characters that can shield pressure D3 without being punished. Juggling is too easy with nair uair, and bair. Bthrow does 16% damage then stales to 15, then 14... How is this almost 20%?

If GDub just spends the game avoiding D3's utilt, then gdub only has to worry about an unexpected bair/fair to be killed.

As far as gdub getting the kill... It's all about edgeguarding. Easy fair predicting, and if the D3 doesn't cancel his up B, gdub can shield for a friend dsmash/fsmash (Maybe usmash? Need to go try...). If he does cancel it, just put a fsmash out there right before he tries to grab the ledge...

Dtilt also makes it difficult for D3 to return to the stage.

I still think this is 60/40 or 65/35.

 

[Hoser]

I'll respond to the rest of that post later, I'm to tired right now. But the infinite is a constant F-throw against a wall.

 

[clowsui]

I'll respond to the rest of that post later, I'm to tired right now. But the infinite is a constant F-throw against a wall.

Here is what this thread has about Corneria vs. MK, Corneria being the primary walled stage.

Corneria, if on, will work well as it has a short ceiling (gw has more upward killing attacks than mk) and you can fin camp/infinite as well. Stay in the middle if you need to avoid getting killed and your at high percents.

Fin camp. Infinite. Stay in the middle if you need to avoid getting killed and you're at high percents.

Ike is SLOWER than MK and relies on, just as MK does, one or two vertkill moves (UTilt, UAir being the two most useful), and a few horizontal killers (FTilt, FAir, BAir). Are you telling me that you are going to take GW to Corneria when he beats a character with similar killing tools?

Get real.

 

[Hoser]

It's 60 : 40 or higher for G&W. Ike's grab game sucks, his infinite is sooooooooooo situational, and his jab game overall is not really exceptional or anything.
Ike's grab reach sucks, yes, but his grab game itself does not. Ike has a great deal of grab release combos, (including a few chain grabs on certain characters, such as squirtle and gannondorf). We've yet to test anything on GaW yet though.

And as for his gab jab, like I said, it can add anywhere from 20~40 in seconds. I'd say thats pretty good. and with heavier characters, if you're right by the edge, you can Jab>jab>Dtilt to spike them off the edge. There's so many possibilities with his jab game.

im going to respond to the ike comments made, (as i read them)

• ya i'll agree that the up tilt is a good kiling move, i really never said it wasn't. Whether its his most used? that i think depends on style.
  Every good Ike I've seen uses this move a decent amount of times throughout a match. Why wouldn't they? It kills early, has a disjointed hitbox, AND comes out fast.
• If ike players don't use the side b to recover, then that makes his recovery that much worse. You've taken away options, and now i know what path you will use to get back to the stage, and it will be much easier to interrupt you, especially given gw's moveset.
  I had phrased that wrong. They don't use it in the terms you described it in. QD is very situational, and good Ike's rarely use it due to how easily gimpable it is. It's basically only used if you're positive it'll make it back and you're not positive you can make it back with QD.
• Fair i see being the only useful one, dair is nice but will put you in a reeaaally bad situation, even if you hit with it. Up b and neutral b are useless against gw, given his recovery path.
  If you set your C-stick to attack (which most Ike's do), then you can walk-off D-air and make it back to the ledge no problem. As for Up B, it's all about when to use it.
  
• Jab combos i would hardly consider potent. Other than jab, jab, grab throw your not going to be stringing much together with ike.
  Jab>jab>UTilt, Jab>jab>(cancel)Jab, Jab, (and so on), Jab>Jab> Grab (into D-throw>Aether at low %s), and Jab>Jab>Dtilt spikes if you're on the very edge. There's plenty of them, those are just my favorites.
• DT actually. When i played against him at CH3 he often times would just sit at the edge and just camp with up b. Hes up on the gb ranking, got like 3rd at nintendo world, and im sure he's considered a halfway decent ike.
  Well I've never heard of an Ike doing that constantly, other then appearently him.
• Hmm i remember nair killing me many times off the stage because the move took forever to finish, and if gw is below ike, the only move that can compete are nair and dair, both of which are very laggy moves.
  Well yes, that's why you don''t use Nair off stage, unless you're looking to die. On stage you can auto-cancel it. As for Dair, like I said, if you set your C-stick to Attack, it stops the fast fall of it, and you can recover no problem.
• Could you describe this infinite? is it just jab jab duck jab jab?

Here is what this thread has about Corneria vs. MK, Corneria being the primary walled stage.



Fin camp. Infinite. Stay in the middle if you need to avoid getting killed and you're at high percents.

Ike is SLOWER than MK and relies on, just as MK does, one or two vertkill moves (UTilt, UAir being the two most useful), and a few horizontal killers (FTilt, FAir, BAir). Are you telling me that you are going to take GW to Corneria when he beats a character with similar killing tools?

Get real.

Ike can kill GaW at low percents, and Corneria has low blastzones, so it's even easier to kill him at low percents. U-tilt could probably kills you around 70%~90% here.

And besides, that's the primary walled stage, not the only one. There's delphino plaza (which our spike also comes in handy during the water parts), which I tend to enjoy more so then Corneria.

Now don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying I think Ike has the advantage. I'm saying others are saying that, and I wanted the facts, because I doubt this claim. But at the same time, I wanted to make sure you had your facts straight, because you were missing a good amount of information on Ike's gameplay.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Can we move onto another matchup? I honestly would like to do Ganondorf because I think it's a fun matchup that is deceptively challenging.

 

[omegablackmage]

when i was talking about the nair being slow i was refering to using it in the air to avoid getting combo'd. The only moves has that hit below him are either really slow or easily avoided (nair, dair, b, up b).

I'm going to have to test the dair as an effective means to edgeguard gw, however i think that if gw hugs the stage on the way up that ike will be too far from the stage horozontally to connect with gw.

And i will make an add on to the original post to include ike's jab combos and up tilt as a kill move. I think overall i covered most of ike's abilities and attributes though, at least enough to make a fair assessment of the matchup.


~I will make the update finishing ddd soon. Im at a toss up for 60/40 or 65/35

 

[omegablackmage]

King Dedede: (6/4)

General Matchup:

• Dedede's strong suits are his ability to camp and play defensively, strength, and his exceptional grab/throw game. Keep these in mind when playing against D3 players.
• You'll find that ddd has a lot of priority on a lot of his attacks, just not enough in most cases to get through gw's. As a general rule, you will want to avoid challenging his smashes, luckily these moves aren't too fast and are telegraphed. Ftilt, Upair, Dair will usually beat all of your moves and bair can sometimes find its way around your attacks.
• Most ddd's will find themselves resorting to uptilts, bairs, fairs, upairs, and his other strong attacks at random (smashes, dash attack, gordo) for kills. Most of these aren't too hard to avoid as long as you simply don't put yourself in bad positions or use your better range to your advantage.
• Edgeguarding ddd is where he hurts the most in this matchup. Almost all of his options for recovering can be foiled by gw. He will usually use his jumps in sneaky ways possibly along with air dodges to get around gw, and if needed he will up b and either cancel it or land on the stage.
• DDD is not too bad at edgeguarding gw. If they know what they are doing ff'd bairs (sometimes fairs/dairs) will be able to take you off guard. Always remember that up b will go through all of these (maybe not dair sometimes, but that will only knock you up or just knick you, allowing another up b and him in a bad situation). Also be weary of the occasional gordo that might be tossed out.
• D3's combos are usually derived from his grab game. A grab, hit, dthrow to tech chase can rack up a lot of damage. Back airs can sometimes be chained together along with some of his other aerials.
• GW's combos, per usual, are found in the air. Up air and nair both destroy ddd's chances in the air exceptionally well. The only option they have when above gw is to dair, which increases their falling speed and has a pretty good amount of priority. Dthrow works alright because of his size, but his large tech roll length and buffer roll speed/range make it hard to techchase him. Use up throws to start combos and pester him.

General Strategies:

• DDD players will make good use of his defensive attributes. His spot dodge and roll both have excellent amounts of invincibility frames compared to the lag, making it hard to punish ddd. If you find the ddd player doing this alot, make use of gw's multi hit attacks, turtle and nair work pretty well. Also fsmashes have a lot of frames where a hitbox is out, this can work on occasion too.
• Another form of camping that you will see is waddle throwing. This will probably be used in conjunction with his roll i-frames to make for an annoying strategy that works well against most character w/o a projectile (gw's projectile will probably be nullified in this situation). However, if they leave a waddle doo out, you can bucket his laser beam for a decent kill attack. Also in general, gw's air movement is pretty good, so when used with smart shielding, it probably wouldn't be too hard to get next to ddd.
• DDD has an excessively long/quick grab that will get annoying pretty quick. Not only can he grab you out of most of your aerials (save the turtle when spaced well), he can rack up a lot of damage with tech chasing. Using your up b to escape the ground and put gw in his element is a good idea in this situation, and will give you time to collect yourself. Also note, that if the techchasing isn't working well for ddd, they will resort to back throwing (16% when fresh, which will hurt after a while).
• When ddd camps with dodges, make sure your spacing is very tight or else you will get grabbed. Even landing behind ddd with say a nair, there isn't enough shield stun to avoid him turning around and grabbing, as his grab is very quick. Also ddd will use the ftilt to combat the turtle, it works, especially if you sh your turtle. Luckily the move doesn't do a lot of knock back/is kinda slow/doesn't do too much dmg. Thus it isn't too hard to either full hop your turtles, just just feign an aerial and air dodge to grab.
• When edgeguarding ddd, you have a lot of options, and this is likely where you will rack up most of your damage/kills. The best thing he can do is simply jump to the ledge and do his best to get from the ledge to the middle of the stage. However, since his up b is quite slow, you can always predict the path he will take if he does this. A simple fair will either force him to dodge or get knocked further out and he will then likely have to up b. This will cause them to try and use aerials near the ledge to swat you away next time. If you see this happening, just sit by the ledge and dtilt, it goes through all of his aerials.
  Now we get to when he starts up-b'ing. If you up b into ddd at any point on his way down, it will always knock him back out, assuming your facing off the stage. Nair will also work, into an up b. This process can be rinsed and repeated. Their only other option is to cancel the up b and go for the ledge or fake you out. As long as you keep an open eye for this, you can punish ddd hard and hog him. Just remember to keep the edgeguarding simple: take his jumps away through aerials, sausage (works well to make clutter), and dtilts. After this just sit near the edge and up b or hog, simple as that.
• When you have ddd in the air abuse your up air. If they air dodge, make sure you nair them out of it (his large size will make this easy). If they decide to dair, try to get to where you think the move will stop and punish there or land on the ground next to him, easy to punish with a fsmash or upsmash if your spacing is right.
• When recovering as gw, make sure you are tossing out fairs to take out his bair attempts, or simply up b into the bairs to knock him away and grab the ledge. You shouldn't be getting gimped to much by ddd, although it is possible so keep it in mind.
• DDD kills with uptilt alot, learn its range. Gw really shouldn't be putting himself in this range if he is playing right. Only dair when you know it will hit (im pretty sure dair goes through the up tilt, but trades more often that would be safe to use it), so don't be attacking his shield with it, that will get you grabbed at the very least, if not uptilted. Never challenge any of his smashes (that includes dair v his upsmash), and always be weary of the bair.

Stages:

• Counterpick rainbow, frigate, corneria (i wouldn't personally but it could work), jungle japes
• Ban norfair, halberd, maybe a neutral.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lucario vs G&W? I'd say 6/4 at least in G&W's favor. Probably a little more, but I dunno.

You excel at edgeguarding and KOing at low percents. Two things Lucario doesn't like. The main annoying thing about him is that he's not as vulnerable from below as most chars thanks to his D-air, but you can U-air stall that.

I dunno otherwise, I haven't played Lucarios in a long time.