Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory

[omegablackmage]

So.. is the Marth guide a bit outdated or is it legit?

I can't see this match any better than 60 40 in Marth's favor. I don't want to interrupt the Dedede discussion so if anyone wants to discuss it else where (pm's/aim/gw discussion thread on marth boards etc) please do so.

Any interruption at any point is fine btw, i would prefer any errors that i have in the first post be corrected, whether it be through what i have written being dated, or simply wrong, call it to everyone attention so that it might be discussed further.

given that, what about the marth write up to you feel is outdated? i just reread it and i feel as though it is still pretty accurate. I made mention of his main methods of punishment (forward b, counter, up b), which is probably what gives him the slight edge in the matchup if at all. Either way lemme know.



Also, sorry A2 about not doing ganon, he's not quite difficult enough to be doing yet, although coming up soon. I would like to finish the upper tiered characters first (rob, lucario, ice climbers, kirby, and pit) before i will move on to ganon, as seeing a ganon in tourney is much less likely that the characters i just listed.

 

[Browny]

I dont find this that much of a bad matchup (DDD is worse imo). since although G&W can KO early, lucario is one of, if not the single most evasive character in the game. If he had a killer Oos attack then it might be a problem but lucario can generally stay out of his range for a fair while. Full charge AS are the only way to go here. turtle and the key are slow enough approaches such that if lucario predicts it (not especially hard vs G&W) he can easily roll away and punish heavily with the AS. there is NO reason whatsoever why a lucario would be spamming BAS, or full charge AS when it is easily bucketable and is a horrible tool in matchup discussion, we are assuming the players are smart here, it should always be used against G&W's commited approaches and thats it.

obviously G&W edgeguarding is silly and what i think is enough to put it in G&W favour. however tbh, when i play vs G&W i play more campy than imaginable, nothing but retreating full charge AS and fsmash with the occasional d-air. G&W may be able to force approaches from very long range, but when it comes to mid range he risks a punishable approach himself vs a powerful projectile, or can play defense vs lucario fsmash which is practically unpunishable

 

[Timbers]

Pit GaW vs. Lucario on like Smashville or something and you have a relatively even matchup. The small advantage going to GaW. Throw them on battlefield or some **** and it's so incredibly one sided in GaW's favor.

I'll watch this thread. Don't really have anything to say. GaW's fair can net early kills due to the above-average edgeguard game that GaW has on Lucario. Luc can SDI bair into free dairs. Whiffed aerials on GaW's part set up for easy punishment with fsmash and aurasphere.

Uh..

GaW shuts down Luc's airgame way too hard, which forces a relatively campy game from Luc, and camping isn't the easiest thing against a character that can pull a bucket on aurasphere and has a plethora of safe options at his disposal.

On a stage like Smashville or Final D, I could see the match being as good (for Lucario) as 45:55. Much easier to control GaW on both of those stages. Then stages like battlefield and lylat and **** can just wreck Lucario. Yoshi's Island lip makes it stupid easy to edgeguard with gaw.

I dunno, so many variables to this matchup. GaW has much better CP options against Luc than we do against GaW.

 

[CO18]

DDD matchu looks good.

 

[Drecker]

As for Dedede, his Utilt can hit G&W's D-Air. Dedede will take damage as well, but if they're going to eat it, it's for an uptilt.

 

[Samuelson]

Against GaW i will use very little AS at the start of the match and start using it more toward then end. If they get a bucket at the end of the match then who cares because they would have to get 2 more and that isn't going to happen because i won't let it happen.

 

[Timbers]

Against GaW i will use very little AS at the start of the match and start using it more toward then end. If they get a bucket at the end of the match then who cares because they would have to get 2 more and that isn't going to happen because i won't let it happen.

Generally this. In addition, it's nice to pocket full auraspheres to use and punish any form of baited aerial from GaW.

 

[omegablackmage]

alright thanks for the info about the uptilt. I had heard that there were even invincibility frames on it, so i wasn't too sure about that part.

 

[Neb]

Oshi, stickies!

 

[slikvik]

good thing azen lives in my region. every other lucario gets badly *****

 

[A2ZOMG]

F-air > Lucario's kill moves.

Srsly, that thing is underestimated on stage, and it kills REALLY early if undiminished. Like at 110% fresh reliably on even heavy characters.

Btw, G&W can do two F-airs in a fullhop. The first one ends in the air laglessly, which can't be punished, and he still has the option of watching for that opportunity to hit with the second F-air. I can't remember if Lucario is tall enough to be hit by the first fullhop F-air, but seriously, it's **** on stage when G&W is looking for a KO.

 

[cutter]

It even outranges Lucario's Fsmash? Remember that thing has transcendental priority.

 

[Hylian]

good thing azen lives in my region. every other lucario gets badly *****

That's not true. I had more trouble with LeeMartin's(Best in Louisiana..won the GS tournament with Ike guy) Lucario then I did with Azens.

>_>

 

[A2ZOMG]

It even outranges Lucario's Fsmash? Remember that thing has transcendental priority.

If he tries to F-smash right as you just completed 1 F-air, the 2nd F-air more likely should punish him.

 

[slikvik]

That's not true. I had more trouble with LeeMartin's(Best in Louisiana..won the GS tournament with Ike guy) Lucario then I did with Azens.

>_>

he has a tendency to have really close matches with everyone but still pull out the win. I'm sure you noticed it when he was in texas

 

[Hylian]

he has a tendency to have really close matches with everyone but still pull out the win. I'm sure you noticed it when he was in texas

Yeah. Though DMG knocked him into losers >_>.

Lee's Lucario is **** though. Seriously lol.

 

[DMG]

Yeah. Though DMG knocked him into losers >_>.

Lucario vs Watch, maybe 50 : 50, I never use G&W against Lucario's much anyways.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's gotta be better than 50/50 especially since G&W has better counterpick stages than Lucario.

 

[slikvik]

Yeah. Though DMG knocked him into losers >_>.

Lee's Lucario is **** though. Seriously lol.

Neo just knocked him into losers over the weekend too. never said he was unbeatable. i'm curious about lee's lucario now. you got anything recent?

 

[FakeGeorge]

This is all from October 26, Louisiana's most recent tournament. We're having another one this weekend, so there should be some stuff of Lee's recorded. I'm not sure if he got recorded at the previous HOBO.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=lee+dibbz&search_type=&aq=f

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dPLx1La8nU

The second is Lee ****** my G&W, but that's probably due more to player skill than the actual matchup.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, your spacing was terrible there lol.

 

[omegablackmage]

Lucario: (65/35)

General Matchup:

• Lucario specializes in a lot of things. Good survivability, good range in some moves, good combos, good camping, and he gains strength when his percent increases and as he becomes behind in stock. All of these factors make for a pretty well rounded character that has few flaws but no real solid advantages.
• Lucario's priority and range are only on some of his attacks. Fsmash, ftilt, upsmash, dair, even forward b all have either good range or good priority or even both. You'll find the upsmash beats the key, fsmash will outrange quite a few of your approaches, and the dair can even make a quick approach from below tough sometimes.
• Lucario's best kill moves are most likely his fsmash and aura sphere (charged). These moves are excellent punishing moves and you will likely find yourself dying after making critical mistakes from these. Bair, forward b, ftilt, upsmash, and dair are also quite strong when used in the right place so watch out for those moves as well.
• Lucario has an interesting recovery at best. First of all he moves in a floaty manner through the air and has a decent double jump, so he will likely not find himself not able to recover. When in range of landing on the stage lucario can manipuate his up b to land in a variety of places, so keep this versatility in mind. Because it has no attack attached to it, any attack is fair game to my knowledge, but i would stick with a ledgedropped nair to edgeguard, mainly because it covers so much ground.
• Lucario would likely edgeguard with a dair dropped low, possibly a bair unless he is stringing you off the stage. Aura spheres can also be used to pressure you into making bad decisions, but remember the up b goes through these and it is likely that a dair won't be going through your up b too often. Any other aerial should be countered easily by a fair or something of that nature.
• Lucario has a pretty fearsome combo game if i say so myself. Fair ends quickly in the air, and nair auto cancels. These moves string together well in a shorthop and then a jab to grab will certainly pressure you further. Lucario can also combo out of dthrows/upthrows at low percents either by hitstun or watching you and punishing. Also the dair combos nicely out of fairs. Overall many of his attacks string together nicely, don't be surprised by high damage combos.
• Gw's combos work much in the same against lucario. He has quite the short tech roll, but a lengthy buffered roll. This works well for you as tech chasing shouldn't be too hard against lucario, if they are buffering rolls punish by jabbing and grabbing again or dsmashing. Up air if they are above you and dair spamming. Other than that, standard combos apply.

General Strategies:

• Other ways to edgeguard lucario would be to apply a lot of pressure offstage with fairs weak or strong. This can sometimes push them too far away for their up b to reach.
• They are quite capable of camping most characters with aura sphere, although it is likely they will only use a fully charged one against gw's in times of need (punishment). Don't expect the bucket to make or break this matchup, it only forces them to approach you instead of them being able to camp.
• Fsmash is an excellent tool to punish sloppy gw play. If your turtle happy, expect to get stuffed by a lot of fsmashes. Its quite easy for a lucario to walk away and fsmash these attempts, so get more creative with your approaches and mix it up. Also don't get too trigger happy with the keys, these will also be thwarted by an upsmash if the lucario has some timing.
• Landing kills can be tricky, but luckily gw has strong ones to get rid of lucario quickly before the percent advantage kicks in too quickly.
• Overall this matchup comes down to approach methods and who punishes who better. Overall turtle/fair will beat most of lucario's aerial approaches. Up air can make it difficult for them to approach with the dair from above. Their approaches will be limited to creep forward ftilts/fsmashes, which you can certainly do something about if you see it coming. Keep a cool head and this matchup should play out in your favor, just don't rush in to get punished, because lucario can do this very easily.

Stages:

• RC works pretty well, avoid frigate (lucario's tend to like this stage, flat edges and all). Pick a smaller stage if possible, corneria would work nice i imagine.
• Ban fd, yoshi's island, frigate, norfair, etc.

 

[Levitas]

Edrees and a few others insist that it's even, but I've found it to be ad. G&W.

Fair can poke through turtle given correct spacing, but the opposite is true also.

Bthrow kills G&W rather early, which would be more advantageous if Ness could recover well.

 

[K 2]

This is definitely NOT an even matchup. I say G&W has a comfortable matchup ratio on this one against Ness. 70:30, possible 60:40 if you are fighting a REALLY good Ness.

G&W has an extremely easy time edgeguarding Ness. The Bucket is nice to be fancy and all, but fair works way better. Use fair to rob Ness of his double jump or use it to hit him out of his PKT. One fair + edgehog = one stock. Ness's like to use fair and they are recovering with their second jump...G&W can also kill Ness absurdly early with is over powered smashes. Dthrow into Dsmash works nice to set up gimps against a ness.

You need to be careful with bucket useage in this matchup. Don't use the bucket at high percents, beause Ness will probably bthrow you to your death if you do. Instead, use your tilts to cancel out is PK whatever attacks.

If he does PKT2 against you, use up b and send him into the air in the helpless animations. One free usmash (or bucket)

 

[Gaussis]

Putting PKT in front of Ness prevents such edgeguarding. Bucket can be avoided by figure-8ing the recovery. Also, his DJ can't be stolen if used correctly.

If you plan to use the bucket, keep in mind that the tail of PKT is worthless to you, as it only sets up for PKT2 if absorbed in the wrong spot and a bucket stocked with them will only kill at high percents. The pillar of PK fire is also similar.

 

[phi1ny3]

Lucario: (65/35)

General Matchup:

• Lucario specializes in a lot of things. Good survivability, good range in some moves, good combos, good camping, and he gains strength when his percent increases and as he becomes behind in stock. All of these factors make for a pretty well rounded character that has few flaws but no real solid advantages.
• Lucario's priority and range are only on some of his attacks. Fsmash, ftilt, upsmash, dair, even forward b all have either good range or good priority or even both. You'll find the upsmash beats the key, fsmash will outrange quite a few of your approaches, and the dair can even make a quick approach from below tough sometimes.
• Lucario's best kill moves are most likely his fsmash and aura sphere (charged). These moves are excellent punishing moves and you will likely find yourself dying after making critical mistakes from these. Bair, forward b, ftilt, upsmash, and dair are also quite strong when used in the right place so watch out for those moves as well.
• Lucario has an interesting recovery at best. First of all he moves in a floaty manner through the air and has a decent double jump, so he will likely not find himself not able to recover. When in range of landing on the stage lucario can manipuate his up b to land in a variety of places, so keep this versatility in mind. Because it has no attack attached to it, any attack is fair game to my knowledge, but i would stick with a ledgedropped nair to edgeguard, mainly because it covers so much ground.
• Lucario would likely edgeguard with a dair dropped low, unless he is stringing you off the stage. Aura spheres can also be used to pressure you into making bad decisions, but remember the up b goes through these and it is likely that a dair won't be going through your up b too often. Any other aerial should be countered easily by a fair or something of that nature.
• Lucario has a pretty fearsome combo game if i say so myself. Fair ends quickly in the air, and nair auto cancels. These moves string together well in a shorthop and then a jab to grab will certainly pressure you further. Lucario can also combo out of dthrows at low percents either by hitstun or watching you and punishing. Also the dair combos nicely out of fairs. Overall many of his attacks string together nicely, don't be surprised by high damage combos.
• Gw's combos work much in the same against lucario. He has quite the short tech roll, but a lengthy buffered roll. This works well for you as tech chasing shouldn't be too hard against lucario, if they are buffering rolls punish by jabbing and grabbing again or dsmashing. Up air if they are above you and dair spamming. Other than that, standard combos apply.

General Strategies:

• Other ways to edgeguard lucario would be to apply a lot of pressure offstage with fairs weak or strong. This can sometimes push them too far away for their up b to reach.
• They are quite capable of camping most characters with aura sphere, although it is likely they will only use a fully charged one against gw's in times of need (punishment). Don't expect the bucket to make or break this matchup, it only forces them to approach you instead of them being able to camp.
• Fsmash is an excellent tool to punish sloppy gw play. If your turtle happy, expect to get stuffed by a lot of fsmashes. Its quite easy for a lucario to walk away and fsmash these attempts, so get more creative with your approaches and mix it up. Also don't get too trigger happy with the keys, these will also be thwarted by an upsmash if the lucario has some timing.
• Landing kills can be tricky, but luckily gw has strong ones to get rid of lucario quickly before the percent advantage kicks in too quickly.
• Overall this matchup comes down to approach methods and who punishes who better. Overall turtle/fair will beat most of lucario's aerial approaches. Up air can make it difficult for them to approach with the dair from above. Their approaches will be limited to creep forward ftilts/fsmashes, which you can certainly do something about if you see it coming. Keep a cool head and this matchup should play out in your favor, just don't rush in to get punished, because lucario can do this very easily.

Stages:

• RC works pretty well, avoid frigate (lucario's tend to like this stage, flat edges and all). Pick a smaller stage if possible, corneria would work nice i imagine.
• Ban fd, yoshi's island, frigate, norfair, etc.

I know this is old, but you might want to add uthrow as another throw where Lucario can "combo" with aerials after. Sorry to bring it up. Oh, and bair will also be used as an edgeguard (seeing as bair has a better chance of connecting immediatly after G&W upB over dair).

 

[omegablackmage]

sure thing, thanks for the comments

 

[ColinJF]

Ness has the range advantage on the ground because of dash attack, up smash, and forward smash. Third hit of dash attack is completely safe versus Game & Watch's down tilt and hits him. Ness's forward air outranges Game & Watch's, but is marginally outranged by the turtle. It's very close though. Down air works as a good approach versus the turtle since it will hit Game & Watch out of it (sometimes trading hits) and Ness's double jump is better than Game & Watch's giving him some flexibility in spacing this.

Ness has a great shield and can easily shield the whole turtle without being shield stabbed.

Ness's dash grab is fast and has good range, and all of Ness's throws (except down throw) are good against Game & Watch. As has been said back throw kills him at low percentages, but forward and up throw lead to good follow up as well.

Game & Watch's aerials, aside from the key, are not well suited to attacking the head of pk thunder while avoiding the tail (which can't be attacked). So pk thunder is pretty good against him when he doesn't have the bucket to use. Smart use of pk thunder against Game & Watch's bucket usually causes him to absorb the tail, and absorbing the tail fills up the entire bucket with 1% tail hits, and the resultant Oil Panic will not kill until high percentages. Also, if Ness is close to Game & Watch when he absorbs the tail it's just as good as being hit by the tail and combos into pk thunder 2 which kills at extremely low percentages.

The turtle is high enough commitment that if Game & Watch retreats it or something like that, Ness can hit him with pk thunder before it finishes.

Ness is exactly median weight, not light, so Game & Watch does not kill Ness "absurdly early". Down throw to down smash doesn't "set up for gimps" because it doesn't work; learn to tech.

Game & Watch can edge guard Ness better than Ness can edge guard Game & Watch, but it's not a complete blow out over the edge. Ness's forward air outranges Game & Watch's, and most of the time he doesn't even need to use pk thunder 2 to recover; when he does, it's only bad if Game & Watch happens to already be near the side of the stage, otherwise you can do it such an angle that it isn't easily interrupted.

That's all I can think of now, but it's a few points to discuss.

I think it's 55-45 Game & Watch, but 60-40 is somewhat reasonable as well.

This is definitely NOT an even matchup. I say G&W has a comfortable matchup ratio on this one against Ness. 70:30, possible 60:40 if you are fighting a REALLY good Ness.

Obviously we are assuming that both opponents are at a high level of play. Otherwise I could say the match up is 80-20 Ness unless you are playing a good Game & Watch.

 

[Samuelson]

lol at Lucario vs GW being 65:35...

that matchup is honestly more like 55:45 or 60:40 at the very very worst.

 

[DMG]

lol at Lucario vs GW being 65:35...

that matchup is honestly more like 55:45 or 60:40 at the very very worst.

My thought as well. 65 : 35 is too much, Lucario does about the same vs G&W as Wario can do, and he's rated 55 : 45 (Which I disagree with but 5 points or so is not worth haggling over when it's close enough to even lol.)

 

[_clinton]

Ness is exactly median weight, not light, so Game & Watch does not kill Ness "absurdly early". Down throw to down smash doesn't "set up for gimps" because it doesn't work; learn to tech.

That isn't the only reason why you don't want to let G&W grab you actually...if you roll left or right and the G&W "gets" it...
His 2-D *** can chase you down with an Usmash...

IMO G&W getting a grab on Ness can be just as ****ing to him almost (it isn't 100% after all...close though) as much as Ness can on G&W (120% or so is the magic number for example on FD...as in the % that will be needed to land a Back Throw KO)

But really people...6-4 G&W is fine by me for the most part...

Ness isn't Lucas just to let you know ^_^

 

[ColinJF]

That doesn't work either. If you tech the down throw you can shield, spot dodge, or roll before the up smash hits. In case there's any confusion, teching isn't the same as rolling after you miss the tech.

 

[_clinton]

Really...well ok then...thanks...I thought he did have that...

Still feel it is sort of 6-4 though for the most part...but whatever...still

Colin is better with Ness than I am ^_^

So...

 

[cutter]

Even though Ness is middleweight, GW's ridiculous smashes can send Ness to his grave at alarmingly low percentages.

 

[_clinton]

Indeed...I think it is around 75% on FD for the Usmash...if it isn't stale...Well something around that...the other 2 need more % of course...still it might be around 90% for the Fsmash...

Ness happens to need like 100% or so for an Uair at ground level on FD...93%-100% or so at the mid point for the Bair is needed...it ranges though...it could also take 120% if it is done at the far side for example...so it is pretty much like the Bthrow...

I sort of wish they didn't take away the food absorbing magnet from SSBM >_>
Not that Chef really matters that much for Ness to work around...but just more along the line that I don't like losing things ^_^

But yeah...still overall on average...each character can cause some pretty early KOs if things go funny like that...Anyway...good night for now

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fastfall B-air from above counters pretty much everything Ness does.

Ness only has B-throw for KOs on G&W, and grabbing G&W is not easy.

Ness is easily gimped by G&W.

7/3 G&W's favor.

 

[_clinton]

Colin already said it but I repeat it...

"Ness has a great shield and can easily shield the whole turtle without being shield stabbed."

And Ness has around 7 different things that could cause a KO if used right in his list of KO moves (Well I might as well take that down to 6 for G&W...but it could still be used for mind games I guess)...

Bthrow is just the most ready to use option...and because of it I can say Ness has a 6 frame KO move in 1v1 fights ^_^

 

[Hylian]

Well, this will be fun.

GW vs Ness: 70-30.

First off: I found it funny that people brought up Edreese. I JUST played him in an online crew battle for the SBR. GW vs Ness. 3 stock each. I 2 stocked him while taking 34%.

Disclamer: Online sucks and doesn't mean anything. It was just ironic.

Ness has the range advantage on the ground because of dash attack, up smash, and forward smash.

Right, even though Dash attack is the only move ness has that outranges GW's Dtilt. I don't know why you brought up the other ones. Not to mention that out of those Dash attack is the only move you are going to be using with momentum disreguarding stutter stepping. The GW player isn't just going to sit there and let you hit him. I'm going to go ahead and state right here that I'm going to base how good the GW is relative to myself. Which means the GW isn't going to be spacing things poorly and getting hit by one of those three moves due to a whiff. Not that any of these moves matter anyways. GW's aireals beat out all of these moves.

Third hit of dash attack is completely safe versus Game & Watch's down tilt and hits him.

You are disreguarding the fact that Dash attack is practically useless vs a good GW player. Dtilt has IASA frames and GW won't just be sitting there spamming it so you can dash attack him. That is the only way Ness would be able to dash attack GW anyways. GW won't dtilt ness unless he plans on hitting him. Even so, Ness would have to start his dash attack before GW dtilted to hit him. Otherwise GW has time to just shield due to the IASA frames on his Dtilt.

Not only that, but Ness's Dash Attack is useless against GW's shield. It is impossible to space his DA against GW's shield without being punished. If you hit with only the third hit, GW can SH fair out of shield and it's a free hit on Ness. If you don't space it like that, GW can grab or use any aireal OOS and punish. The only way Ness has to space against GW's shield without being punished is retreating fair. Because of this approach Ness is extremly easy. His best option is extremely telegraphed and can just be countered by RARing a bair. The only thing Ness's DA is useful for against GW is punishing whiffed smashes and dair's. It's great for that, but that is it.

Ness's forward air outranges Game & Watch's, but is marginally outranged by the turtle. It's very close though. Down air works as a good approach versus the turtle since it will hit Game & Watch out of it (sometimes trading hits) and Ness's double jump is better than Game & Watch's giving him some flexibility in spacing this.

Ness's fair is good, but it's not even a match for GW's aireals. Seriously now. GW's bair outranges this move, and nair will trade hits with it from the front and back. Fair is also the only aireal Ness can actually use against GW without being punished easily, so it becomes very telegraphed.

Dair to beat Turtle? Are you insane? It's impossible to hit GW with dair while he has his turtle out unless he has absolutly horrible spacing. Ness can NOT hit GW with dair from a SH. Bair will beat it. GW's Nair will also destroy Ness's dair and tack on a guarented 17% in the process, AND lead into either another nair/up-b or Uair. Nair actually beats all of Ness's aireals except his fair. They trade hits. You also seem to be disreguarding GW's up-b, which gives him a substaintial amount of invincibility frames and the ability to escape any follow-up ness could possible have. GW can tap DI and up-b out of PK fire before Ness can grab him. If GW ever feels threatened by PK Thunder he can just up-b away.

Ness has a great shield and can easily shield the whole turtle without being shield stabbed.

This is very true. It's also true that ness has 0 OOS options against GW's turtle, so he can just pull back and do it again. Or frame trap ness with Dtilts. Ness can't reach GW out of his shield before GW can react.

Ness's dash grab is fast and has good range, and all of Ness's throws (except down throw) are good against Game & Watch. As has been said back throw kills him at low percentages, but forward and up throw lead to good follow up as well.

First off, It's impossible for Ness to follow up GW from any throw due to GW's up-b.

Secondly, Ness may have strong throws, but GW is eaisly one of the hardest characters to grab in Brawl. It's one of the reasons he does so well against Ice Climbers. Ness has no grab set-up's on GW. PK fire I explained above. All GW has to do to avoid being grabbed by almost any character is carefully space Dtilt/Bair and know when to use Up-B. Ness's ability to kill GW from a throw is one of the only reasons he even has a chance in this match-up. Too bad GW has so many options to avoid grabs eh?

Game & Watch's aerials, aside from the key, are not well suited to attacking the head of pk thunder while avoiding the tail (which can't be attacked). So pk thunder is pretty good against him when he doesn't have the bucket to use. Smart use of pk thunder against Game & Watch's bucket usually causes him to absorb the tail, and absorbing the tail fills up the entire bucket with 1% tail hits, and the resultant Oil Panic will not kill until high percentages. Also, if Ness is close to Game & Watch when he absorbs the tail it's just as good as being hit by the tail and combos into pk thunder 2 which kills at extremely low percentages.

GW doesn't even need to use the bucket against Ness. If Ness ever PK thunders while GW is on the ground then GW can just approach Ness with shielddashes. If GW get's scared that he might get hit by PKT2 then he can just up-b. It's extremly simple and easy to avoid. You might be able to get GW players that are inexperienced in the match-up with some simple PKT tricks, but any experienced player will know what to look for. Also, I'm pretty sure PK thunder's tail can only fill up a max of 2 bucket slots in one shot. The bucket also has a tremendous range and will absorb the head even if it isn't close. I disgress though, GW has no need to use the bucket vs PK thunder or PK fire. GW can just Dtilt PK fire lol.

The turtle is high enough commitment that if Game & Watch retreats it or something like that, Ness can hit him with pk thunder before it finishes.

This is just False. That would only be true if GW started his bair after Ness PKT'ed and he was close to ness. Which doesn't make sense. You must be getting desperate...

Ness is exactly median weight, not light, so Game & Watch does not kill Ness "absurdly early". Down throw to down smash doesn't "set up for gimps" because it doesn't work; learn to tech.

Ok, Ness is not medium weight, because GW's dthrow to Dsmash doesn't even work on Med weight characters, yet it works on ness. He may be at the top of light...but he isn't very heavy. GW can kill ness in the 70's with Fsmash or Usmash and with sweetspotted Dsmash at 76% fresh.

Ok, let's assume you can tech GW's dthrow every time. Well, it doesn't do much for you. GW can techchase with fair before Ness is out of the teching animation. It's the only move GW can hit with before Ness is able to shield, but it will always be sweetspoted and has the perfect trajectory for edgeguarding. Not only that, GW can techchase Ness with fair ON REACTION. I don't have to guess. Ness's roll is pretty slow.

Game & Watch can edge guard Ness better than Ness can edge guard Game & Watch, but it's not a complete blow out over the edge. Ness's forward air outranges Game & Watch's, and most of the time he doesn't even need to use pk thunder 2 to recover; when he does, it's only bad if Game & Watch happens to already be near the side of the stage, otherwise you can do it such an angle that it isn't easily interrupted.

I'm sorry, but GW has an extreme advantage off the edge vs ness. Fair isn't a problem. GW can just bair to edgeguard. It works fine. Dtilt stops PKT2. So does fair. All I have to do is run off the edge and fair to interupt it. Or I could just edgehog and then uair Ness giving me a free move. Of course if Ness is in a good position to recover then he can get back pretty often, but if he can't reach the stage with his double jump then it's GG ness. GW simply just has too many options for Ness to recover reliably. In my combo video "Sugoi Syndrom" I have some good clips of me edgeguarding ness if you want an example.

Random fun fact:
GW can Dtilt Ness's pk fire then use bucket and it will be filled immediatly. Feel free to use this as easy damage. It kills at 65% and is easy to aquire.

Note: I play ness. In fact, I probably have the best ness in texas. I play him a lot and enjoy playing him. I'm not just pulling this information out of my ***.

Hopefully you can see my points and understand why this match-up is bad for ness. Maybe the GW's you play are just approaching the match-up wrong. Maybe you have never played a good GW. I don't know but I've set straight pretty much everything you've said and if you would like to know more feel free to ask about anything that I didn't cover.

-Hylian

 

[ColinJF]

The business about punishing whiffs and whatnot falls into the domain of "playing the game", and we could go back and forth on that forever, so I'm not going to bother.

Fair is also the only aireal Ness can actually use against GW without being punished easily, so it becomes very telegraphed.

Down air is really good. You seem to underrate this move.

Dair to beat Turtle? Are you insane? It's impossible to hit GW with dair while he has his turtle out unless he has absolutly horrible spacing. Ness can NOT hit GW with dair from a SH.

You don't have to use it from a short hop.

In my combo video "Sugoi Syndrom" I have some good clips of me edgeguarding ness if you want an example.

I've already seen your combo video and the Ness players just recovered incompetently. In the first clip he still could have connected pk thunder 2 if he knew how to use pk thunder, and he shouldn't even have used it from that place. Looking at clips and talking about what players "should have done" and such is pretty silly, I know, but I'd seen your video, and my impression was that the Ness players did not know how to recover. (I think there's also one clip of a Ness player missing a tech of the down throw and being punished badly for it, and only bad players are going to mess the tech.)

GW can tap DI and up-b out of PK fire before Ness can grab him

PK fire I explained above

GW can just Dtilt PK fire lol.

Random fun fact: GW can Dtilt Ness's pk fire then use bucket and it will be filled immediatly

Random fun fact: I didn't talk about pk fire in my post because it isn't very good. There are a plethora of ways I could take advantage of Game & Watch throwing out Judgement Hammer, but I don't talk about that because no one is going to be using it.

Secondly, Ness may have strong throws, but GW is eaisly one of the hardest characters to grab in Brawl. It's one of the reasons he does so well against Ice Climbers.

Ice Climbers' grab and dash grab are worse than Ness's dash grab.

Note: I play ness. In fact, I probably have the best ness in texas. I play him a lot and enjoy playing him. I'm not just pulling this information out of my ***.

You're not pulling information out of your ***, eh? What about this then:

Ok, Ness is not medium weight

In fact, Ness is exactly median weight. Take a look at this weight list. Count the number of characters heavier than Ness. Then count the number of characters lighter than Ness. You'll notice it's the same number (19). This is why we say that Ness has the median weight.

Good job pulling "Ness is not medium weight" out of your ***.

I'm not going to get into some back and forth discussion about things that are just "playing the game" though, and I don't find your "I play Ness" business very compelling. I play Game & Watch as well, but that happens to be wholly irrelevant to the actual discussion.

I only posted my match up comments for the sake of conveying my opinion and some relevant points, which I gather we were supposed to do. I don't intend to convince you or anybody else here, and it's your forum, so you can put whatever you like. I've already posted my arguments, so you can make what you want of them.

I'll leave it to some other people to post their opinions.

 

[Hylian]

Way to dodge the majority of my response and reply with a bunch of one liners that don't even relate to the quotes for the most part.

Reguarding Ness being "Medium" weight, ok. I still listed the kill %'s. You're just arguing semantics at this point.

I'll reply to your post more in depth when you actully spend the time to find a good argument against my post instead of a bunch of one liners that don't really say anything but subjective information.

You don't even aknowledge the points I make.