Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory

[omegablackmage]

your starting to use the upair to combo more, which is good, most gw's don't use this yet. also, lol at full charge upsmash. i think your spacing has improved too

 

[A2ZOMG]

I find it surprising that nobody has mentioned the super-armor properties on some of Wario's moves.

I thought it was just F-smash you have to worry about. If you space badly against his F-smash, he can hit you. Fortunately it doesn't exactly have amazing range, but he does have some good setups into it.

And if he Wafts, I wonder if you can Up-B or U-air out of shield and kill him lol.

 

[Neb]

Bump?
-__-

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Where are you, OBM???

 

[omegablackmage]

i'll be updating this soon, i was tryin to wait for hylian to post, but i don't think he's gunna

 

[Neb]

OBM, don't ever leave us again, !

 

[Blad01]

Hello G&W mainers !

This week is G&W match-up discussion in Falco's forum We thus wait you over there, to discuss this match-up, and to arrive at the most just possible conclusion. ^^

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=198018

Thanks

 

[omegablackmage]

Wario: (6/4)

General Matchup:

• Wario's biggest asset is his incredible air speed/movement coupled with a good short hop. This allows him to move back and fourth through the air simliar to jigglypuff in melee to either bait attacks or to slip in through openings quickly to stike the opponent or land a grab.
• Despite his famous characteristic of being fat, wario has quite a bit of speed to his attacks. His aerials in general are all very fast and can start some very devastating combos.
• Wario doesn't have very much range on his moves, or too much priority, thus gw will almost always beat him in that department.
• Wario has a pretty good assortment of reliable, stong, and fast kill moves. First off, the fart. It can be either half charged or full charged for effective use. When full charged it does something like 40 damage with pretty decent knockback (110 seconds (slightly less than 2 minutes)) and when half charged it does less damage but quite a bit more knockback that can kill really early (55 seconds (bit less than a minute)). His other kill moves are his up air (very strong when fresh), and his forward smash (this move has SA frames, so watch out).
• Wario's recovery is very interesting to say the least. He has the bike, bike jump, double jump, up b, and even farts to recover. This allows him to change his recovery path almost every time he comes back to make him hard to edgeguard.
• Wario's edgeguarding usually consists of fairs off the stage for gimps on some characters, but it is likely that unless he suicide bites you, you won't be getting edgeguarded.
• Wario's combos are usually combinations of nairs, dairs, bites, boosted upsmashes, up airs, sometimes fairs, and farts/fsmashes for finishers. Become familiar with the ranges on the moves and the proper way to di out of these attacks to minimize the damage you take.
• Gw's combos will probably be simliar to other characters, except take note that up air combos will be minimized because he can move through the air faster than you, thus escaping the upair chains.

General Strategies:

• Edgeguarding is best done by trying to fair to interrupt key moves. If you see him get on his bike and he's near you (probably a mistake on the wario's part) make sure to keep a fair out directly above him for when he jumps. Also, take note that wario cannot auto sweetspot the ledge, so make sure you either dsmash or dtilt to hit him out if they miss.
• Make sure that when you approach with aerials, you keep your max range up. It isn't as precise as needed for marth or metaknight, but you need to avoid getting bitten or fsmashed from his SA.
• Watch out for wario's amazing sheild pressure game. It is very possible (especially since gw's grab isn't very long) for them to dair on your shield and then back off too far for you to grab. If you find that wario is pressuring your shield too much, make good use of your up b out of shield before he gets to you to relocate.
• Wario players will usually admit that his range is his worst asset, thus this needs to be abused to full capacity. Approach with good spacing while he's in the air and you will beat him often.
• Going for the kill can be quite difficult to do since he can move so fluently in the air. If you think you can get away with it, randomly smashing at times you normally wouldn't could certainly score a kill now and again. Be sure not to spam your smashes when its time to kill, he will punish you hard for this and rack up damage quickly. Up smash does particularly well because wario doesn't have any excessive range to punish you with.
• When grabbing make sure to mix it up between upward throws and dthrows. Wario isn't particularly easy to tech chase, however he also is hard to chase in the air with up throw to up air, so use both and see which gives better results.
• When he dthrows, make sure that you vary your pattern frequently. They usually expect you to roll into, shield, or to spot dodge. I think rolling away and up b are much safer options, just make sure to mix it up enough.
• Watch out for the boosted upsmash. Wario can cover a lot of ground very quickly with this, so it can throw anyone off. This move and the dair can be smash di'd out of try to make use of that.

Stages:

• Moving stages and stages with missing ledges work wonders as usual. Rainbow cruise, frigate, etc work well.
• Wario works pretty well on neutrals, stages with low ceilings could work against you like corneria, up to you and your comfort level on that stage.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I thought it was rather neutral?

 

[omegablackmage]

are you talking about wario? im not entirely convinced of that. imo, wario has little to approach with other than air dodging and nair approaches kind of ruin that. gw wins in recovery, edgeguarding, range, and priority. I feel like wario is better in shield pressure and weight, and they both are even in kill potential and combo game.

Most of the good wario's i've seen play against good gw's had an extremely hard time getting in on gw. Would everyone prefer i change it to 5/5? or leave it at 6/4? I also updated falco a few pages back.

Other than that its pikachu time.

 

[Neb]

I say 6:4 just because G&W out-prioritizes and out-ranges him, plus Watch's aerials are dangerous in this match-up since Wario extends his hurtbox on all his moves-- he's forced to evade, and play a cat-fight.

 

[MK26]

Can you guys discuss Kirby next week? Kirby boards are probably gonna discuss G&W next

Link: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=195032

TY

 

[A2ZOMG]

vs Pika, 65/35 or 6/4 in favor of G&W.

It comes down to G&W's better priority and better kill moves. Thanks to better priority, he has an answer to Pikachu's aerials. Pikachu is mediocre at scoring KOs since his D-smash is easily DIed, his F-smash is too slow and unsafe, and because his aerials lack necessary kill strength. Basically he's left with U-smash to kill you, which isn't bad, but it's just one option on the ground.

I'm pretty sure if any character can ledgecamp against Pikachu, it's G&W. If he Jolts, you can Bucket it and I'm pretty sure you can still make it back to the stage.

 

[DMG]

are you talking about wario? im not entirely convinced of that. imo, wario has little to approach with other than air dodging and nair approaches kind of ruin that. gw wins in recovery, edgeguarding, range, and priority. I feel like wario is better in shield pressure and weight, and they both are even in kill potential and combo game.

Most of the good wario's i've seen play against good gw's had an extremely hard time getting in on gw. Would everyone prefer i change it to 5/5? or leave it at 6/4? I also updated falco a few pages back.

Other than that its pikachu time.

I would put it as 5/5. It's not too hard to get past Nairs while approaching, I did that to Hylian a few times and even punished him before he could Upb or get away.

They are about the same recovery and edgeguarding wise (neither one should be getting gimps or having their recovery interfered with much) and Wario seems to have a small edge when it comes to killing, I know he definitely has an easier time landing a kill move than G&W here. I would put it as 5/5 for now, I'll talk to Hylian about it in about 1 1/2 weeks from now at a tourney, or I'll catch him on Smashboards sometime before then and ask him.

Sorry I don't have anything good for Pika, but something like 6/4 for G&W vs Pika sounds about right.

 

[M15t3R E]

G&W does have the advantage over Pikachu due to better priority and faster kill moves.

When an experienced Pikachu plays an experienced G&W, what the Pikachu needs to have on his mind is comboing. Shieldgrabbing is always crucial to achieving victory as Pikachu when they're disadvantaged due to priority or range. Same applies to this match.

Don't take a Pikachu lightly. A good one will know exactly when to t-jolt and catch you off-guard, however sparingly. If you let them get in one too many combos, they'll surprise you with a Nair KO. Also note that if you make one false step at even moderate damage, f-smash will blow your 2D body to pieces. Watch out for the QAC's too. That is definitely my best friend in this kind of match-up.

Edgeguarding is so difficult to perform against a G&W- lucky you. But by the same token, you'll find it very difficult to edgeguard a good Pikachu.

BIG NOTE: If you let your bucket gain 3 charges and become full, the Pikachu will have absolutely no reason not to try and spam t-jolts or edgeguard you with thunder. Definitely keep that in mind.

I would say this match-up is 6/4 in G&W's favor.

Watch Anther vs. Juntah videos. I don't know how he does it, but Anther always pulls off the win.

 

[omegablackmage]

vs pika theres a lot of key things to help you out.

upsmash hurts, but is really his only stand out kill move other than the thunder (this is avoidable in every case through good di). Downsmash can be di'd out of really easy, forward smash is only best utilized when really close, because a tip'd forward smash is incredibly weak. Other kill moves are fresh nairs (fairly strong) along with fresh dairs.

when the thunder jolt spam, i would recommend collecting them in your bucket, but only when you have low health. i think its definitely worth eating two upsmashes for it, because its always a free stock if you know how to land it.

edgeguarding comes down to running off the stage and nairing, imo. Other options are hogging so that your invincibility just runs out if he were to go into the stage, forcing him up over the stage, and especially if you have a bucket this could probably reach. Also remember that dtilts will push a forward b sweetspot away (only a pixel perfect sweetspot can avoid a dtilt) from the edge forcing him to up b.

up b tricks on the stage can suck, but imo the technique itself is pretty telegraphed mainly because he can't grab out of it. If you see him up b into you just keep shielding and up b if necessary, shouldn't trick you up too much.

anyone else have any thoughts on this matchup?

i'd say its a 6.5/3.5

 

[cutter]

Pika's Usmash can hurt but isn't NEAR the terror it was in Melee. It's definately worth it take a hit from a smash for absorbing something (obviously 3rd absorbtion cancels the lag) on the first two.

I think you can max out the bucket in one sitting if you're under Thunder. I was able to this once a long time ago and I was pretty sure I hadn't absorbed anything else. Once your bucket is full Dtilts and dash attacks will block neutral Bs.

You can clank Pika's Fsmash with dash attack which is nice.

To get around with QAC, I agree with OBM. Shield (it won't deplete it that much) and possible Up B OoS to get out any pressure. I really really love Up B OoS.

65/35 maybe 60/40 seems about right to me.

 

[omegablackmage]

ya the sparks that come off the thunder can fill the bucket instantly, but its hard to do because the hitbox around pika for the thunder is awkward

ANNOUNCEMENT:

For those who follow this thread, which matchup numbers do you think should be changed? its been a few months since this project has been started, so obviously the meta game is going to change and matchups will also change.

Im guessing most people would like to see mk and snake listed as disadvantages, and probably toon link moved to advantage? (personally i think diddy should be moved to disadvantage as well)

 

[Mmac]

I made a Compact Universal Matchup Template for you to use, if you want to use it. Just add in the Title/Numbers yourself, and whatever else you want to do with it. If you want me to make you a more Unique design, then PM me with a Rough estimate of what you want.

This thread could have used a bump too

 

[Neb]

Ooh, nice.
Thanks Mmac!

A tad off topic.
I personally think the TL match-up is even or an advantage. Maybe we should review the match.
Discuss?

 

[cutter]

That template is REEEEALY nice; especially how it's organized by tiers. I like that a lot. *thumbs up*

And yeah it wouldn't hurt to look at Toon Link again. It was a consensus 4:6 disadvantage back in like April-June, but now I'm starting to disagree on if it's that bad of a matchup.

Too bad you hardly see Toon Link in tournament play. I'll be going to a smash party tomorrow night and hopefully I can get tons of Toon Link play in if I can.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Edgeguarding is so difficult to perform against a G&W- lucky you. But by the same token, you'll find it very difficult to edgeguard a good Pikachu.

G&W does however have the most ridiculous lingering hitboxes though. If you go for the edge when recovering, you eat a D-air if he knows what he's doing.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think you should revisit the Marth and the Snake match-up first. The general consensus gives them the advantage while the OP has it as a neutral

 

[Neb]

-__-.
Bump.

Can we please discuss?

 

[DMG]

G&W vs TL should be 60 : 40 probably. TL has trouble getting kills when he has to get past the range Watch has where as G&W can kill and edgeguard fairly well. Projectiles can be canceled with Dtilt or even sometimes aerials, and you can just flat out dodge or Upb through Bombs if you absolutely have to.

For Pika, 65 : 35 probably. Same problems as TL, except his projectile is easily worse, he has an arguably harder time landing a kill move, and he has less overall range to work with.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Marth IMO is fairly close, advantage only slightly to Marth. I don't think it's 6/4 Marth.
Marth is better onstage, except when he's above G&W. Offstage, he usually should eat a D-air when recovering, something the Marth Boards probably overlook.

Snake is around 6/4 Snake.
Snake's main advantage is grenade shielding, which can effectively counter all of G&W's approaches (well, you can grab and throw Snake, but that's super slow and you need to either do it fast or it's controller port dependent IIRC). Without it, G&W IMO has the advantage on Snake slightly. Everything else about Snake is easily workable if handled carefully. His F-tilt can be punished with a B-air, and chances are he doesn't have a grenade with him if he's F-tilting. His Mortar Slide can be punished by F-smash or Chef. You can easily juggle him by U-airing as he does an aerial, then punishing. His recovery gets eaten alive by F-airs or even D-airs. D-air beats the U-tilt and U-smash too.

 

[cutter]

I'm just not convinced Toon Link has the advantage over G&W now. We thought that back in April and it carried through the summer, but now I'm really questioning this matchup again.

Toon Link has leet projectiles but you can swat them away with whatever + Up B. Once you get inside the midrange area where the projectiles aren't much of a factor TL is in pretty big trouble.

 

[Neb]

|IMO
TL: 6:4 or 45:55 (G&W>)
Snake: 4:6 (Snake>)
Marth: 6:4 (Marth>)
Pikachu: 6:4 (G&W>)

N 'like Cutter said, the match-up rank for Toon is a bit dated.
If G&W is using his priority and upb intelligently to dumb-down TL's projectile game, he can really get inside, where he's most comfortable, considering Link's smashes aren't safe on block, and he's just really not a nose-to-nose fighter.

TL's only counter against juggling is his bombs, but trumpet covers that, possibly making the juggle even more lethal. His recovery is also a cinch to gimp, this is true especially with slow-fall'd dair, chef, bair, etc. I could go on, but the best card he has to play is the zair, the long-range, and its transcendental priority, combined with his stockpile of weapons, makes approaching easier said than done.

 

[omegablackmage]

i agree with snake (i think you all know how i feel about that matchup at this point, no one really seems to agree with me) and toon link, but marth def does not have the advantage against gw.

 

[Neb]

i agree with snake (i think you all know how i feel about that matchup at this point, no one really seems to agree with me) and toon link, but marth def does not have the advantage against gw.

Whats your thoughts on Marth?

 

[A2ZOMG]

What matchup values do you give Marth? I think it's close. About 55/45 Marth.

He has the advantage mainly due to a slight range + speed advantage on most attacks. However you have juggling on him and you can edgeguard his Up-B with D-air, and mind you, his range is NOT unbeatable by any means.

 

[Neb]

I personally think chef ***** in this match-up, it violates his- spacing, camping, zoning and approach.
But just like with MK, its easy to camp with his lack of projectiles and weak (in comparison to G&W) edge-guard game.

|Maybe we should go over (and agree with) out-dated match-ups before we continue with any others?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You should write that stuff on the Marth boards. They have it as their advantage

 

[Hylian]

OBM have you played Neo?

Marth wrecks GW >_>....

 

[A2ZOMG]

But Neo is too good. Isn't that like fact? I heard he beat some other guy's Marth (probably EL's) with IKE. =/

 

[DMG]

Marth vs G&W is not merely 55 : 45. He out ranges you in a lot of areas, Upb OOS ***** G&W's approaches, tippers WRECK G&W (I MEAN WRECK), he can counter anything predictable, Dancing Blade is hard to get past, and he's not exactly easy to edgeguard.

So we have a character that out ranges you mostly, one that can match/rival your power with good spacing, one that can counter a lot of approaches with Upb or counter, and I'm pretty sure that would not make him 55 : 45.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Quite frankly though, it can't be any worse than 6/4. Marth sucks so much when he's above you. Also, he IS easy to edgeguard. His Up-B can be D-aired or edgehogged. Also, Marth SUCKS at the ledge even if he does make it there. Also seriously, his range isn't all that hard to get into. It's annoying at the least sure, but Brawl is too chock full of defensive options for his range to be that hard to get by.

 

[Neb]

Marth vs G&W is not merely 55 : 45. He out ranges you in a lot of areas, Upb OOS ***** G&W's approaches, tippers WRECK G&W (I MEAN WRECK), he can counter anything predictable, Dancing Blade is hard to get past, and he's not exactly easy to edgeguard.

So we have a character that out ranges you mostly, one that can match/rival your power with good spacing, one that can counter a lot of approaches with Upb or counter, and I'm pretty sure that would not make him 55 : 45.

I'm very lenient on either one, 6:4, or 55:45.

G&W juggles Marth like a rag doll, because of the blind spot below him, he really has little options. The uair can leave him suspended for days, and Watch has rights to just nick and poke his every attempt at retaliation. Even if he goes for the ledge, it sets him up for abuse. This makes uthrow beastly in battle.

Returning, Marth is very easy to gimp, and since G&W gets most of his KO's from left to right, he has to rely on Shield Breaker to get the tiny feat of horizontal momentum that leads into his Upb. This opens three weak points- above, behind, and below. And considering how dangerous Watch's edgeguard is, Marth is in a lot of trouble, he might as well have Olimar's recovery.

Another weakness is Marth's ledge return, his options are yet again few, since he can't space, zone, or punish (unless the G&W is predictable). If Game & Watch stays at the correct distance, he can apply pressure at that hot-spot. There's penalty waiting for almost all of Marth's choices.

IMO, chef can be used sparingly in this match-up. Its as if it was made for Marth, the bits of food can wreck his spacing, retreating and approach, which is a big centerpiece of Marths game, temporarily neutralizing it. Marth can't just fan away the foods like projectiles, since others will back them up, not only that but he is now focusing on the food, which gives GaW a silent approach. Chef is like having six meat shields, and its properties auto-set Marth into a fierce trap.

Almost every option has backlash-

• Shield: Grab, Chef Reset, Shield Poke, Re-space, Run
• Air-dodge: Punish Lag (Multi-hit Attacks), Grab, Smash, Chef Reset, Aerials, DashA, Run
• Run: Space, Chef Reset, Pressure into Edgeguard
• Roll: Smash, Upb->Re-Space, Grab, Jump->Aerial, DashA, Run
• Attack: Chef can Out-prioritize, Punish Lag, Jump back-> Chef Reset, Dtilt/Chair, Bair (may need to Upb afterward), Shield Approach, Run
• Counter: Punish lag, Shield Approach, Upb, Run, Chef Reset, Vertical Approach, Backdoor Grab
• Dancing Blades: Stuffed by food, Vertical Approach, Rear Approach, Chef Reset, Shield Approach, Upb, Run
• Upb: Chef Stuffs, Punish Lag, Shield Approach, Chef Reset, Juggle, Smash, DashA, tilts, etc.

If Marth does get stunned by the foods, G&W succeeds in creating a safe approach. This is just for convenience.

Other Points

• Dancing Blades: Escape' able with shield and Upb.
• Counter: G&W shouldn't be predictable, he'll need to use fake'd approaches
• Upb: Same as Counter
• Spacing/Zoning: Dtilt, Bair, and Chef

 

[AndrewCarlson]

Is Meta Knight vs. Game & Watch still 50:50? I thought the general consensus was now 60:40 in Meta Knight's favor?

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=198110

 

[A2ZOMG]

MK vs G&W is 6/4 MK, but no worse.

vs Marth btw goes 65/35 MK in that matchup.