Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory

[Dj Chopin]

nappy has a much more respectable debating style.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Eh?

This is just how I post. And what I say is valid and quite honestly, worth reading.

I have lost to one G&W in tourney, but that was months ago and has little to do with why I'm posting. That G&W was Velocity, my friend and former crew mate BTW.

Anyway, You make it sound like I said G&W is trash. I didn't. I'm saying I disagree with the reasoning behind alot of G&W's match-ups.

Also yes G&W has options after his d-throw, but what makes a tech trap good is that it limits options. You aren't limiting your opponent at all really. You are simply forcing them to react, which is a good thing, but it would be alot better if they couldn't tech and it would definitely be better if they couldn't choose which side they could land on.

Also...what brought me here?

Incorrect match-up info and ratios brought me here.

I don't like false info is perpetuated among the community.

Plus talking about this stuff is fun.

Also...emblemboy? I would wager that I'm older then you, but even still, why the need to make fun of my name?

Why so serious?

 

[Neb]

Also yes G&W has options after his d-throw, but what makes a tech trap good is that it limits options. You aren't limiting your opponent at all really. You are simply forcing them to react, which is a good thing, but it would be alot better if they couldn't tech and it would definitely be better if they couldn't choose which side they could land on.

lol, ignore them. I enjoy your visits, xD. Our boards have been off-track lately.

Back to topic. You're actually limiting your opponent. Sure they have plenty of exploitable escape-routes, but they're restricted to a ground getaway. It only takes a split second to react to your foes tech, and its really easy to take advantage of. Believe it or not, the dthrow has some mental persuasion too. As most characters know, the dthrow>dsmash is deadly, so right off the back they're gonna wanna tech everything. But if they don't, they get spanked, and it'll lead them to teching in the long run, which is just as bad. Either way, they're screwed.

G&W won't land all of them, but it only takes one to count.
Moreover, Snakes dthrow is actually very similar, you have all the same escape options.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Snake's d-throw gives you 4 options and you are laid straight down. You can do normal wake-up, wake-up attack, roll left, or roll right.

Snake can cut his opponent's options in half with a simple action.

A shield. When he shields it counters two options. If the do a normal wake-up or wake-up attack it's free hit or grab for Snake and then he could reset the throw trap. They must roll left or right. So in this case Snake can use a Mortar Slide to cover either direction. Or a dash attack. He could even do a shield drop dash grab. It's much much easier for Snake to get a hit in because his opponent is much more limited.

With G&W they can tech in place, tech roll left or right or not tech and do wake-up, wake-up attack, or roll left or right. They an also choose which side they land on. And since I'm a Marth player tech in place to up b is a good option for me as well.

G&W leaves his opponent with alot of options and he really has to try to predict what his opponent will do. That's not a good trap. A good trap is when your OPPONENT has to try to predict you, otherwise they get wrecked. Ok, saying it's not good is going too far. It's decent and it definitely should be used, but there are better traps in the game.

 

[Hawks go Caw]

Snake's d-throw gives you 4 options and you are laid straight down. You can do normal wake-up, wake-up attack, roll left, or roll right.

Snake can cut his opponent's options in half with a simple action.

A shield. When he shields it counters two options. If the do a normal wake-up or wake-up attack it's free hit or grab for Snake and then he could reset the throw trap. They must roll left or right. So in this case Snake can use a Mortar Slide to cover either direction. Or a dash attack. He could even do a shield drop dash grab. It's much much easier for Snake to get a hit in because his opponent is much more limited.

With G&W they can tech in place, tech roll left or right or not tech and do wake-up, wake-up attack, or roll left or right. They an also choose which side they land on. And since I'm a Marth player tech in place to up b is a good option for me as well.

G&W leaves his opponent with alot of options and he really has to try to predict what his opponent will do. That's not a good trap. A good trap is when your OPPONENT has to try to predict you, otherwise they get wrecked. Ok, saying it's not good is going too far. It's decent and it definitely should be used, but there are better traps in the game.

I'm not 100% sure, but I remember reading somewhere that you can only tech roll out of Dthrow; you can't just tech in place. I think a lot of us agree that against heavier characters, Dsmash isn't an option. However, Dtilt comes out significantly faster and can hit anybody that doesn't tech and lands in front of G&W. Jab occasionally covers both sides.

I don't know. I'm not really here to argue with you about how friggin' amazing the Dthrow is or isn't. I don't remember seeing anywhere anybody claiming that G&W's Dthrow was the greatest trap in the game or anything. We usually just give it a lot of praise because it's an important part of G&W's game.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yeah, of course you are right. I was just putting things in perspective. I'm not trying to argue about this either really.

 

[Neb]

Yeah, I see where your coming from. And just like Snake's, if they wake-up attack, or just tech in place, you can also shield and re-grab, etc. The thing is, Snakes dthrow is escaped at a quicker roll pace than G&W's dthrow, which makes follow up options kinda choppy, they're easier to avoid, and are already limited. You can't tech-chase into tilts, and the remaining of his attacks are slow and have to be set previously, which leaves only DashA and Mortar Slide.
So while Snake's trap is more full-proof, his follow-ups are dull in comparison to G&W's.

Your getaway with Marth has holes, Watch can easily evade that with an angled Upb, or shield, and punish your landing. But its clever. What do you think about GaW's uthrow?

 

[napZzz]

Whats better about snakes dthrow anyways is that the options you can do from it are much better. THe dthrow itself does 12%, and following through with an ftilt or another dthrow then ftilt can put on 35%+. Or utilt from dthrow is an easy kill.

wtf neb you can tech chase into tilts! They have broken range and you dont have to go very far before you can hit them after getting up -__________-

 

[napZzz]

No, some characters can. But not enough to say that its a clear-cut solution to escaping the dthrow.

And I said if they tech, but don't move, you can time your smashes so that they land after the invincibility frames, while a fsmash would touch do to the lazy hitbox. Besides, I gave the penalties to each escape route, I wasn't inquiring that they do it, or react a certain way.

About the Usmash not hitting rollers. Look at some Hylian vids, .

With Snake, I agree with you on how he can KO G&W early. But its not like Game is going to ever be that close, knowing Snakes tilts. He'll be really campy, and most of all his approaches would be tightly spaced. Even a shield-dropped nade can be avoided with a retreating full-hopped bair. Plus, Snake has worst to worry about than a bair with that sh***y air-game and recovery.

Snakes air game isn't that bad....and he doesn't really need it all that much with his b and a moves..

A good snake can put pressure on someone and control the field with explosives and the likes and force players into tilts and grabs and teh mortar slide...eh you dont get it >.<

And its not only the ability to kill game and watch early, its how scarily easy it is to rack up damage with snakes tilts and other moves..

 

[Neb]

Whats better about snakes dthrow anyways is that the options you can do from it are much better. THe dthrow itself does 12%, and following through with an ftilt or another dthrow then ftilt can put on 35%+. Or utilt from dthrow is an easy kill.

wtf neb you can tech chase into tilts! They have broken range and you dont have to go very far before you can hit them after getting up -__________-

Why the face Nappy, why the face? Don't give me the f***ing face, ><.
Er. I thought we were speaking against G&W here, avoiding a tech-chased tilt is as easy as rolling and escaping with an angled Upb. But anyway, Snake doesn't have much options to punish a tech...against G&W.

Snakes air game isn't that bad....and he doesn't really need it all that much with his b and a moves..

A good snake can put pressure on someone and control the field with explosives and the likes and force players into tilts and grabs and teh mortar slide...eh you dont get it >.<

I was talking about how, once G&W gets Snake in the air, he's a camouflage-wearing rag doll. B-moves, with the exception of C4, are not gonna save his *** from an aerial juggle by GaW.

 

[napZzz]

Pulling a nade saves a bair juggle ( Or anything thing else..period.)I know I'd rather take damage as well as the opponent knowing they can die before me and I wont get my *** tossed around , and all he need to do in the air is fast fall, DI away from anything, and air dodge back to the ground >_<

And saying you can escape snakes tech chase is ridiculous! His dthrow cant be teched so they cant roll out right away a farther distance making snake only need to basically turn his direction and walk one step or two, or just stand still and shield for an easy utilt kill

Dont act like game and watch is special enough to not get tech chased for some reason neb, thats kind of stupid.

You are acting like this is melee and there is hit stun to juggle people in the air with geez.

 

[Neb]

Pulling a nade saves a bair juggle ( Or anything thing else..period.)I know I'd rather take damage as well as the opponent knowing they can die before me and I wont get my *** tossed around , and all he need to do in the air is fast fall, DI away from anything, and air dodge back to the ground >_<

And saying you can escape snakes tech chase is ridiculous! His dthrow cant be teched so they cant roll out right away a farther distance making snake only need to basically turn his direction and walk one step or two, or just stand still and shield for an easy utilt kill

Dont act like game and watch is special enough to not get tech chased for some reason neb, thats kind of stupid.

You are acting like this is melee and there is hit stun to juggle people in the air with geez.

Your forgetting uair. If Snake wants to pull a nade while being juggled with uair, fine by me.
Uair will take care of ff, air-dodge, and can drift you to the ledge if your DI'ing, which can lead to more aerial punishment, or edge-guarding. Not saying its unnavoidable, but its definitely one of the problems for Snake in the match-up.

The animation where a character is laid down last the same time Snake takes to get out of his dthrow animation. If they don't roll, they can be tilted or sticked with a C4. A roll is both quicker than his run/walk. There's barely even a window for Snake to take advantage of, if G&W Upb's straight out of his roll, but if he doesn't, he gets tilted. The only things that can close the distance quick enough, is a DashA or Mortar Slide, and that's not even taking account if the Snake shields or not.

And you know what I'm talking about. I'm making reference to Snake's air-game vs G&W's air game, hit-stun or not, it isn't very hard to juggle someone heavy, with little aerial options.

 

[Hylian]

I don't think xyz would agree that MK has the advantage on G&W. IIRC he hasn't yet been beaten by a single MK in Florida. =/

But no seriously, G&W's D-throw ***** any lightweight who can't tech consistently. That definitely includes Marth, Metaknight, and G&W himself. Not to mention Toon Link.

So? At FAST I beat all the Florida MKs in MM's and a bunch in tournament. I don't think a Florida MK even got top 20 there >_>.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ok, on topic:

60:40 for GaW vs. Wolf. I know about that since Wolfs my main and GaW my 2nd and I can tell you, that GaW can do a lot to Wolf, although it's not something, that Wolf can't win. GaWs turtle obviously ***** Wolf as it outranges everything including Wolfs beloved bair but Wolf can kill GaW obscenely fast with his epic dsmash.
If Wolf gets a chance to grab GaW he'll always have the adv since GaWs grab sux and Wolfs grab is pretty fast. Wolfs main problem is that GaWs finisjers are so absurdly overpowered (**** you, Sakurai!) otherwise the match-up would be rather neutral. Wolfs blaster has good priority btw so don't expect it to be canceled by every move of GaW. And never try to edgeguard Wolfs forward air or you'll get spiked.

Basicall it's the turtles range and the uber finishers that give gaw the adv here

 

[omegablackmage]

Wolf: (6/4)

General Matchup:

• Wolf is really known for having exceptional range on certain attacks and having quirky aspects that can make him difficult to deal with.
• Wolf's priority seems to be average, none of his attacks being disjointed as far as i know except for his blaster. The fsmash is really one if his few moves that will be outranging you.
• Wolf's kill potential is very much based on the player using him. Wolf can kill very easily with the dsmash, fsmash, bair, and maybe even upsmash/fair depending on how much the moves are used. Most wolf players will use the fsmash a lot for spacing and approaching purposes, not to mention the move can be easily di'd out of. The bair is also used often for aerial approaches but still can be used to kill near the edge even when weak. Dsmash will probably be his kill move 75% of the time.
• It is no secret that wolf's recovery is not good, being that it is very one tracked and interruptable. Gw's aerials all can cut through the wolf coming back and put him in a worse position than before.
• Most wolf players will make use of their blaster at mid range to keep pressure on you. This move is bucketable, but watch out for counters on their part when you bucket this.
• Wolf has a very limited combo game in my experience. Mostly his game revolves around quick pot shots that might get you off the edge or blaster spamming to rack up damage and then land a kill move.
• Wolf is a pretty heavy character, expect no problems juggling him in the air. Also he can buffer rolls out of your dthrow, so you'll have to tech chase him.
• Wolf's edgeguarding tactics usually revolve around timed back airs, but you can recover so low that i wouldn't worry about it.

General Strategies:

• When approaching wolf the biggest thing you have to worry about are getting around the blaster shots, and the fsmash. Landing spaced aerials on his sheild may not always be a good idea as the fsmash might be able to reach you after you land. Also, if they are expecting it, they can walk out of your range and then fsmash after you land as they'll be able to slip in.
• Blaster spam. If they're across the stage using it, don't be afraid to bucket it at lower percents. If your at the blaster's maximum range, wolf will have a hard time reaching you before the lag is up. If your at mid range (where most wolf's will abuse it) you can try to bucket at lower percents and take a smash hit. If you can get two (and they stop using projectiles, big plus) or the three (its a free last stock if you hit them with it) you should be able to punish them enough for the blastering.
• Although i don't have much experience edgeguarding wolf, i can't imagine why most of your aerials won't go through the side b and up b. Just try to control which one he has to use so you can know what to expect. If he can, i would think most wolf's would use the side b because its faster and can spike you. Try to force them into using their up b from below and drop a weak fair to interrupt these moves.
• Keep in mind that wolf can move pretty fast and far with his boosted upsmash. This can definitely be used as a surprise tactic at any time or to even punish you for things like bucketing.
• Other than the points made above, wolf is a pretty average character. Has a decent amount of speed to compete, but not nearly enough range in most cases, so don't expect to be challenged that often.

Stages:

• Per usual, make your move to rainbow cruise or frigate orpheon to punish his bad recovery. Also i imagine halberd and delphino would make it more difficult than normal to recover.
• They'll probably go to neutrals against you to avoid bad recovering situations, there isn't a specific counterpick stage that i can think of that they would take you to.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Falco is definitely in G&W's favor. I'd say 65/35 at least.

You can easily shut down the centerpiece of his metagame by simply ducking. He can never hit you with a laser as long as you duck, and this will force him to approach you, which you can counter easily with well-timed D-tilts most of the time.

However, you don't want to get grabbed. If he grabs you at low percents, he'll get 30% on you right off the bat with a D-throw combo that could end with a DAC. Also you can't get into spotdodge wars with him. He will win those because his spotdodge and options from a spotdodge are better than yours. Instead, you must punish his spotdodges with lingering hitboxes when the opportunity arises.

If he looks like he will Illusion, most of your attacks will obliterate it if you time them well. His recovery is also fairly easy to punish. A well timed B-air will stuff Illusion recoveries. A slowfalled D-air will ruin Up-B recoveries.

Beware. his D-air can outprioritize your Up-B if you aren't in the invul frames (I dunno, do his feet still have invul frames like in Melee?). but that shouldn't be too much of a concern honestly.

If you need to counterpick, Rainbow Cruise will ruin him. However if he gets to counterpick, watch out if he goes to Jungle Japes. He can get really lame there since lasers and Forward-Bs get a lot of bonuses on that stage.

All in all you want to be able to keep Falco away from you during this matchup, and eventually the KO will come as the match progresses. If Falco is allowed to get in your face however, he's pretty good at following up and that can get dangerous.

 

[cutter]

It seems like a lot of Falcos try to grab you right off the bat and into the chaingrab to start off a stock. At least that's my experience.

Play it safe until around 35% when he can't chaingrab anymore. Bair wrecks him since he can only stop it with a shine or laser. Bucket and ducking shut down lasers. He also has no good answer to G&W's Dair. He also gets Dthrow-Dsmashed if he doesn't tech.

If he attempts a spike, Uair him. Thanks to Uair, G&W is virtually spike-proof; this takes away one of Falco's best ways of killing. Falco's recovery is pretty abysmal if you ask me. Most Falcos will use side B to recover since Up B is just so ****ty.

 

[omegablackmage]

grabs are quite painful, since at the beginning of the stock it equals 40 percent or so because they will always end it with a dash attack to upsmash (btw, is it possible to smash di the dash attack so you don't get hit by the upsmash?).

Other things i've noticed are to bucket when your at low percents, they usually shoot a lot of lasers to try and control the field so you'll be able to catch two at once more than likely, which will make them stop shooting or you'll fill the bucket to hurt them etc.

Their best kill moves seem to be bair, fsmash, dsmash, upsmash, sometimes up airs and spikes.

Anyone have any experience as to how the refector affects this matchup? it has more range than anything gw has and how does it affect the bacon?

Also which other stage would be best vs falco other than rainbow cruise? frigate?

Just trying to stimulate some discussion about an important character (very commonly used, def top 10 in the character list)

 

[A2ZOMG]

Anyone have any experience as to how the refector affects this matchup? it has more range than anything gw has and how does it affect the bacon?

IIRC, they can stop approaches with reflector, which can be annoying. I haven't tested it yet, but can you duck under reflector?

Also which other stage would be best vs falco other than rainbow cruise? frigate?

FD from my experience is surprisingly good against Falco because it limits his approach options severely since he can't really laser camp against G&W anyway, so he'll be forced to approach in any circumstances. D-tilt limits his approaches even more, which is ridiculous. That's my opinion.

The main thing about Falco is that you don't want to take him on in Jungle Japes, since his Phantasm is **** there, and lasers for some reason are very good at controlling the flow here. Also remember spike into water is deadly, and he has a lot of opportunities to do that.

 

[Hylian]

G&W vs Falco is 60:40.

I will post reasons later.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This is GaWs advantage.

One thing to watch out for are his lasers. A smart Falco will try to bait out your bucket to make use of the lag afterwards. Or he'll do some fake SH to bait it...

Personally I think ducking > bucket vs Falco

 

[cutter]

Here's my 2 cents on the Falco matchup (and I play against a very good Falco player):

Do your absolute best not to get grabbed when you're around 0% so Falco doesn't get a free 55 or so % on you right off the bat. I like to space Bairs and Dtilts because Falco has problems against disjointed hitboxes unless he wants to use his shine.

And for the shine... it has transcendental priority which means it goes through ANY attack. It outranges the turtle and it DOES reflect Chef back at G&W. Don't worry too much about that though; the food has very rarely hit me back. The good news about the shine is that it always goes out in a line, the hitbox doesn't stay out for very long, and Falco suffers some pretty major lag when his shine comes back to him. You can easily shield/airdodge the shine if you think Falco is going to toss it out and then punish him afterward.

Bucket is great as always. My friend barely uses lasers against me now because he knows I can bucket them far away. Although you won't have a 0-death on Falco with Oil Panic, it can take out Falco at ~70-80% pretty easily. G&W also has a fantastic crouch to avoid lasers which is also really nice.

Falco's main kill moves are Usmash and Bair. Fsmash has a bit of startup lag and I can hit Falco with a Dtilt as he lunges forward. And IIRC, dash attack clanks with Falco's smashes. G&W's Dsmash is a great kill move; a tipper kills Falco in the 75-80% range and a non-tipper hit will send out of the stage and make it hard for him to recover.

He really can't spike G&W as long as you know what you're doing. Uair blows him up away from you stopping most spike attempts and you can override his Dair with an Up B when you're invincible (careful with Up B though; I think both attacks might hit simultaneously if you're not invincible during that time).

If Falco doesn't tech the Dthrow, he gets Dsmashed.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

^ I think GaWs upB can escape the CG earlier than 55%. I'm not sure but from 31% it usually works for me

yay post 500

 

[cutter]

^ I think GaWs upB can escape the CG earlier than 55%. I'm not sure but from 31% it usually works for me

yay post 500

You get chaingrabbed to ~35% and Falco has a free followup with a Dair or Usmash. That's another 15% or so.

 

[omegablackmage]

im going to wait until we get hylians input on this matchup, because he probably has the most experience with it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

^ Well, Hylian said he'd post it "later". But that's a week ago now -_-

 

[omegablackmage]

Falco: (6:4)

General Matchup:

• Falco's largest assets are in his chaingrab and follow ups from that, and his very controlling laser game. He also has a solid edgeguard game, along with a very high priority reflector.
• Aside from the lasers and reflector, his range and priority are pretty run of the mill. You will find that in most situations you will outrange/prioritze falco.
• His best kill moves are his fsmash, upsmash, bair, and dsmash. These moves don't have any particular set ups other than boosted upsmashes, so the usage of these moves might be seen from far away.
• His combos are usually in the form of grabs, a grab at 0% will lead to a good 50 damage assuming your not near the edge, and even then a reverse boost grab would nullify that problem. Dash attacks to upsmashes are pretty deadly and lasers can stun you to get hit by other moves if he's close.
• Falco's edge guarding usually takes the form of him trying to either spike you or sneak a strong back air in, both are quite deadly. Chaingrab to spike won't kill you (your up b goes too far) but will certainly put you in a bad situation, and the bair won't outrange you, but is quite fast and can kill early when fresh.
• To edgeguard falco, throw a bair out when you think a forward b is coming, or try to predict where he will land and smash. If he has to up b, light hits from fairs work very well to drop his height along with nairs.
• GW's combos work pretty well against falco, he falls fast which is very nice for nair chains, and his aerial movment is only average which makes him quite susceptible to up air chains. Also, dthrow to dsmash works very nicely if they don't tech.

General Strategies:

• If the falco laser spams a lot, you know what to do, stand and bucket. When spamming, they usually throw two lasers out, both of which can be caught when on the ground I believe. Also, if you duck, he can't hit you with a laser unless its from the ledge.
• If you want to avoid the chaingrab, the best advice i can give you is to use your range well enough to avoid getting grabbed. When in the grab just don't panic, because he can't spike you and kill you, you can always recover. If he dash attacks to upsmash at the end try to smash di the dash attack to jump out of the upsmash and save yourself some damage. If he spikes you make sure to tech.
• I don't see this too often from any falco's, but he does have a guaranteed laser lock combo on gw. At low percents he can footstool you out of a dthrow and then land on you with a spike. He will then immediately start lasering you because you've been stunned too long. Certainly something to look out for.
• If they try to use the reflector to beat your range, remember that it has a crazy amount of cooldown, and he's really only safe if he hits you with it, otherwise note that a free smash is ensured.
• Laser baits (for your bucket) are a trick some falco's use to get free smashes in, if you think this might be the case either only bucket at low percents or when your far away. If you do fill your bucket, dthrow and tech chase is amazing because the bucket comes out so fast and has a lot of range.

Stages:

• Rainbow cruise, frigate, etc work well against his terrible vertical recovery.
• Avoid jungle japes (forward b tricks) and final d (lots of laser room).

 

[DMG]

I guess I will throw my two cents out. I've played Hylian a bit in tournaments and I used to main G&W alongside Wario, so I have a pretty good grasp on both of them.


Wario likes the air a lot. His best setups and combos come from aerial moves, and he can deal a lot of damage very quickly if you are not careful (16% on Dair and 18% on Uair alone). He has insane aerial DI, and it's not uncommon to see a Wario hit someone's shield and back off just in time to avoid a counter attack. He can also approach and retreat with Airdodges well, making him formidable on defense as well as offense.

He is very good at pressuring you into making mistakes up close, and it can be hard shaking off a Wario that is persistent and mixes it up to keep you on your toes. He has some powerful kill moves that are lethally fast, do a lot of damage, and have surprising range. His Waft, depending on how far it is charged, can kill G&W even in the 40% range on certain stages without DI.

It is important to know that his Waft does more damage fully charged but less horizontal knockback. He will glow brown when it is fully charged, but you should be more concerned about it hitting you before he glows brown, so keep an eye on the clock. Watch out for the time period 1 minute to 1 min 50 sec's from the last time he uses a Waft.



Wario's biggest weakness is his lack of range. He has some of the worst range out there, even though the range he does have has surprising disjointedness/priority. Focus on exploiting his reach problem by using fast long ranged moves like Bair, Nair and Dtilt to name a few. If Wario can't get close, then he can't hit you. Even using Chef can sometimes work, just don't do it with Wario around close by.

Killing Wario can be a pain, he can be a squirmy little fellow and play it safe if he senses a Smash Attack from G&W. If you have to play differently to land a Smash attack, then go for it. It's better to try something new and figure out what works instead of trying the same thing over and over and getting burned for doing it.


In short, Wario will beat you if he gets in close and starts swinging, but you will beat him if you abuse your range well and keep him from getting past your "wall". The Wario boards have this matchup listed as 6 : 4 G&W's Favor, but I am a bit inclined towards it being 5 : 5.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Eh, somehow in G&W's favor, by how much I dunno. This is not a common matchup for me.

Wario has good shield pressure, but G&W has slightly better shield pressure. Wario has a few good kill moves, but G&W has many good kill moves. Wario has a better grab game.

That's all I vaguely know from the top of my head.

Oh, and non-sweetspot F-air >>> Bike recovery. I think grounded bikes can be punished by a well timed Up-B out of shield.

 

[Hylian]

Sorry guys. I need to get a hold of a computer lol. I'm posting from my wii, so I can't type much :/.

When I get the chance I will do Falco + Wario in one shot. And I agree with everything DMG said about Wario. Seems to be even to me.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

These has to be the match-up ... where shields suffer the most. seriously...Warios Bite + Dair vs. GaWs Dtilt + Jab + Bair + Nair = Shieldpressure at it's finest.

I don't know about Hylians experience against Wario but DMG played very good...made good use of Warios aerial properties.

Either way, I still say it's GaWs advantage, even if it's only minor...55:45 at best
Spacing is important vs Wario but also very hard to do. However, Wario is all about aerial battle and GaW just ***** in the air...

...maybe I need a bit more experience vs good Warios though...

 

[DMG]

Eh, somehow in G&W's favor, by how much I dunno. This is not a common matchup for me.

Wario has good shield pressure, but G&W has slightly better shield pressure. Wario has a few good kill moves, but G&W has many good kill moves. Wario has a better grab game.

That's all I vaguely know from the top of my head.

Oh, and non-sweetspot F-air >>> Bike recovery. I think grounded bikes can be punished by a well timed Up-B out of shield.

Wario's shield pressure is better than G&W's. Trust me, Wario has a ton of options after he hits your shield, especially after Dair. After G&W uses Bair, Dtilt, Jad, other shield pressure moves, there's not much left that he can do. Now if you are talking about shield poking, then yeah G&W is better for that, but for pure pressure Wario is like a king.

Wario has about 4 kill moves, 3 use able constantly (Waft, Fsmash, Clap, Ftilt), G&W has around 4 kill moves (3 Smash attacks and Fair). They are about the same on killing, maybe a slight edge for Wario just because of the versatility Waft gives him. And Wario only has a better grab game because of the guaranteed damage that his Fthrow gives, compared to G&W's dthrow setups where you sometimes have to guess well to get a bonus hit in.

It's hard to gimp Wario if he recovers right, and you can sometimes put yourself in a bad position if you miss with an Fair or Upb Attempt.

These has to be the match-up ... where shields suffer the most. seriously...Warios Bite + Dair vs. GaWs Dtilt + Jab + Bair + Nair = Shieldpressure at it's finest.

I don't know about Hylians experience against Wario but DMG played very good...made good use of Warios aerial properties.

Either way, I still say it's GaWs advantage, even if it's only minor...55:45 at best
Spacing is important vs Wario but also very hard to do. However, Wario is all about aerial battle and GaW just ***** in the air...

...maybe I need a bit more experience vs good Warios though...

There is a lot of shield pressure going on sometimes, but usually it's just a battle of exploiting air weakness.

IDK, I mean G&W is good in the air, but Wario can hold his own if he isn't trying to beat you head to head when he isn't close enough. I personally think it's even.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

In my defintion 45:55 is even. Not like 50:50 even but a neutralish match-up, where one just has a little an easier time...for whatever reasons. In this case I'd give the nod to GaW b/c he seems to have slightly better properties and better choices, when it comes to stages. But like I said before, I need a little more experience vs good Warios...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Wario's shield pressure is better than G&W's. Trust me, Wario has a ton of options after he hits your shield, especially after Dair. After G&W uses Bair, Dtilt, Jab, other shield pressure moves, there's not much left that he can do. Now if you are talking about shield poking, then yeah G&W is better for that, but for pure pressure Wario is like a king.

That's what I meant I guess. G&W is also better at escaping shield pressure thanks to having a very good Up-B that keeps his options open and outprioritizes everything.

Wario has about 4 kill moves, 3 use able constantly (Waft, Fsmash, Clap, Ftilt), G&W has around 4 kill moves (3 Smash attacks and Fair). They are about the same on killing, maybe a slight edge for Wario just because of the versatility Waft gives him. And Wario only has a better grab game because of the guaranteed damage that his Fthrow gives, compared to G&W's dthrow setups where you sometimes have to guess well to get a bonus hit in.

I said Wario had the grab game advantage because he has better grab range Wario and D-throw trap vs G&W's D-throw and U-throw since Wario's D-throw has set knockback, but mind you U-throwing isn't bad for G&W since he likes to keep people above him.

Oh, and G&W's D-air kills if fresh and is a very good edgeguard when slowfalled (can happen, since G&W is better at dealing damage with N-air, B-air, D-tilt, and grabbing anyway). Waft takes two minutes or something like that to charge, so won't happen all that often.

It's hard to gimp Wario if he recovers right, and you can sometimes put yourself in a bad position if you miss with an Fair or Upb Attempt.

I guess. However I'm just pointing out that if G&W is allowed to initiate a F-air above Wario, it can make it significantly harder for Wario to recover. Either because it will knock him off the bike and force him to recover from a different position, or it will hit him and possibly kill him.

 

[omegablackmage]

waft takes 55 seconds to charge

 

[Needle of Juntah]

i beat MW best wario in 2 sets on saturday so ill post vids. i think only 1 set got recorded. its sad because the first set i did the nastiest ***** combo i swear to god lol it came straight out of Melee

 

[cutter]

i beat MW best wario in 2 sets on saturday so ill post vids. i think only 1 set got recorded. its sad because the first set i did the nastiest ***** combo i swear to god lol it came straight out of Melee

Lcanceled Dair to Jab cancel to Dtilt to Nair? That's what I liked doing with Melee G&W.

I have no experience with Wario guys. Sorry... He seems to act like a fat Jigglypuff that has kill moves while keeping her fanastic shield pressure from Melee.

 

[Ruuku]

I find it surprising that nobody has mentioned the super-armor properties on some of Wario's moves.

 

[Needle of Juntah]

Lcanceled Dair to Jab cancel to Dtilt to Nair? That's what I liked doing with Melee G&W.

ummmm i guess lol

 

[Needle of Juntah]

lol here is what im talking about heh. it sux because this isnt the good set. i did some ugly **** in winners, this is losers bracket after i lost to a DDD


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y6WY9dHWEA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HclCHC4ofMQ