Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory

[ColinJF]

since ness has no *quick* projectiles to bother a gw player with at mid to long range, he can certainly play a defensive style against ness. Thus we would look at ness's general approaches. Dash attack has been mentioned quite a few times, which isn't a bad move by any means, but doesn't really break gw's defense. If ness is dashing at gw, its likely he will dash attack, sliding upsmash, or grab. In gw's retaliation, dtilt beats upsmash and grab of course, shielding beats dash attack and upsmash, and either rolling back or up b'ing out of shield will beat grab as well.

thus we move to his air game. fair seems to be the only real approaching aerial, and if gw is chilling on the ground, up b out of shield is certainly capable of beating this, although I imagine that its possible to space this move to avoid getting grabbed against shields. I can also see the dtilt beating the fair when ness is approaching because it hits so high.

The charge hitbox of Ness's up smash outranges Game & Watch's down tilt actually. This might be an esoteric fact but when you charge the yoyo at all, it has longer range (and it hits while charging). After hitting with the charge hitbox, there is exactly a one frame window for Game & Watch to SDI and avoid the yoyo release sweetspot.

Unlike many multihit moves in Brawl, Ness's forward air keeps you in shieldstun/hitstun for the whole move, so you can't use Fire out of shield while this is hitting your shield, and Ness also lands too far away to punish it. Ness also gets pretty far away with down air on shield, and it finishes in the air so it doesn't have any more landing lag than landing without using an aerial. Down air is a good approach both versus shields and versus Game & Watch in the air.

turtle - if the gw player sh's a turtle and ness is trying to be defensive, he has choices of sheilding or trying to attack it with a fair. We've already covered that the turtle will beat the fair. Thus they either have to shield it fully and move away, or try to dash/walk away and punish. Since ness has no long range attacks to do this, he either has to move out of the way or sheild it thats it.

Depending on the spacing of the turtle, Ness might be able to benefit from blocking the first hit and then rolling behind Game & Watch and trying to hit him with something before the move finishes. Or he might be able to SDI through the turtle and use neutral air on the other side. Or it might be to his advantage to try to get above Game & Watch and use down air... his double jump is a lot higher than Game & Watch so he has flexibility in doing this. At close quarters, Game & Watch cannot use the turtle again, because Ness's neutral and forward air both come out faster.

dtilt - no projectiles or grounded range attacks. gw can simply walk near the ness player and start spamming to pressure his sheild. If he tries to go into the air the dtilt will catch him. He can really only roll away and regroup.

There are sixteen frames where there is no hitbox is out between two Game & Watch down tilts. If I remember correctly, including shieldstun, down tilt against shield is a -10 advantage for Game & Watch. Ness can just do charged up smash out of shield, which will hit Game & Watch. Ness can even drop his shield and dash grab Game & Watch.

key - if landed behind the shield i don't think ness can turn around and grab fast enough. the only times that this approach doesn't work for gw that well is when either the character has a move that will outprioritize it (upsmash might, but since that is a tricky timing situation, slowfalling would certainly be an option to get by that) or they have a very fast grab/oos shield option. Ness doesn't really have either of these, thus its probably another safe approach.

Key has fifteen frames of landing lag. Ness can do short hop neutral air in eight frames (including the four frames ot get off the ground).

Overall gw's combos will be much better and rack up much more damage, not to mention they are easier to land. Ness has no answer to up air spamming, which he would drastically need to avoid nair combo'ing along w/ a high priority/range dair (none to be found).

How about fast fall air dodge through the wind hitbox of up air...

When gw is recovering, he goes low, and ness has really nothing he can use to interrupt him, fair will block a pkt, which is the only thing i can see ness using to edgeguard.

Ness can get some extra damage with his forward air, but he won't actually be able to edge guard Mr. Game & Watch, it's true.

Ness's spike killing at 0 is a pretty moot point, unless he has a guaranteed combo to go with it ( i have yet to see anyone bring one up, thus i'll assume it doesn't exist) or it could be used to effectively edgeguard, both of which don't seem to be options.

Game & Watch is never spiked, but in case you aren't aware, Ness's down air is used more often on the stage. It is a viable approach and it starts combos that cannot be escaped by double jump -- and Ness can easily punish air dodges. It also sets up for tech chases.

Ness's kill moves are: fsmash, bair, bthrow, upair, dair. Fsmash is certainly much too slow to really do anything, bair would be nice if it beat any of gw's approaches, bthrow is legit (kills early, might be his only reliable kill), upair/dair don't have enough range or priority in any situation to hit gw.

Also pk thunder 2, which kills Game & Watch at something like 30% from the centre of the final destination, and can be comboed into from bucket absorption of the tail of pk thunder, or other things.

Ness's back air pushes back shields a lot and also wears them down a lot. It also shield stabs easily. Up air is easy to land; down air -> up air cannot be escaped by double jump, air dodges can be hit anyway, and all of his aerials are too slow to hit Ness before the up air at the range Ness will be before Game & Watch can act after a down air.

Gw as you know has a lot of kill moves, all of his smashes (most of which are safe on block v ness because has no ground range), and fair (only ness's fair will beat it), and bucket (can be used out of grab release or in a lot of other situations). Most of these are reasonable to land vs ness due to his lack or range.

Grab release -> Oil Panic doesn't work. Game & Watch's grab release animation is too slow, and his pummel is much too slow to force a ground break even if his grab release animation weren't too slow. Bucket can be powershielded on reaction assuming you keep your distance from Game & Watch, and while his bucket is full he has a hard time dealing with pk thunder because his aerials do not lend themselves well to avoiding the tail of pk thunder while trying to attack the head. (Key is the best at this, but since it's his only good option, it's easy to deal with.)

 

[A2ZOMG]

A lot of the arguments you are using only apply in a situation where G&W has really bad spacing, or situations that require too much perfect timing for Ness to pull off consistently.

Ness shouldn't even be using projectiles in this matchup due to how much he telegraphs them by the way.

 

[K 2]

Geez...screw the arguments. Why don't you two just duke it out? Who ever gets three stocked loses the argument.

Just a few things:

Instead of useing the key (15 frames of landing lag, like you said). G&W can FF a nair, which outcancels.

FF through G&W uair is really, really hard if the G&W is experienced, expecially for floaty characters. One the G&W catches on to the fact that you are airdodging through it, he can simple wait a few frames for your airdodge to edge and then hit you with uair again.

PKT2? I've never been hit by that in a 1 v 1 match...ever. The only reason G&W should be hit by that is if his shield breaks or if his controller dies on him. I believe G&W can Fire (up b) right before PKT2 hits him and abuse the wind push effect and invincibity frames of Fire. Ness will be sent into the air in the helpless state, ready for G&W to brutally punish him.

 

[Ref]

Ness shouldn't even be using projectiles in this matchup due to how much he telegraphs them by the way.

Since when is Pk thunder telegraphed? Ness has the most control over it. He can do so many different things with them.

Start up lag / ending lag does not make a move telegraphed.

You can actually easily tail whip to PK thunder2 game & watch especially if he buckets to fill up it with tails. Ness will just either hit invincibility frames and stay until they run out, then you will get hit, or just plain out hit you because you had to put the bucket away.

Tail out prioritizes the key, meaning a Game&Watch using that to hit the ground faster when pk thunder is out will be hit by it.

Many of G&W attacks can be punished especially by Ness, one of the best characters for this thanks to a fast grab slide, and other factors.

D air can punish a ton of stuff, that G&W does. This leads to another aerial on G&W. One of the more deadly ones being a U air. The U air actually has the priority to beat a downward key, let alone it also has the faster start up time from my experience. If you air dodge, Ness can punish with another aerial.

Ness will F air an offstage G&W not necessary to gimp, but to rack up damage.

Ness' B air can hit G&W pretty well when edge guarding. I believe with proper spacing it can extend past the F air. Due to some body retraction stuff Ness does.

 

[omegablackmage]

The charge hitbox of Ness's up smash outranges Game & Watch's down tilt actually. This might be an esoteric fact but when you charge the yoyo at all, it has longer range (and it hits while charging). After hitting with the charge hitbox, there is exactly a one frame window for Game & Watch to SDI and avoid the yoyo release sweetspot.

Yes, that may be true, but your also not going to win a match or gain that much of an advantage by hitting with this very picky spacing once, if this move combo'd then i might be inclined to think it was good, but it doesn't.


Unlike many multihit moves in Brawl, Ness's forward air keeps you in shieldstun/hitstun for the whole move, so you can't use Fire out of shield while this is hitting your shield, and Ness also lands too far away to punish it. Ness also gets pretty far away with down air on shield, and it finishes in the air so it doesn't have any more landing lag than landing without using an aerial. Down air is a good approach both versus shields and versus Game & Watch in the air.

No what i was saying is that you could use the up b out of sheild before you start hitting gw's shield since it has i frames in it.


Depending on the spacing of the turtle, Ness might be able to benefit from blocking the first hit and then rolling behind Game & Watch and trying to hit him with something before the move finishes. Or he might be able to SDI through the turtle and use neutral air on the other side. Or it might be to his advantage to try to get above Game & Watch and use down air... his double jump is a lot higher than Game & Watch so he has flexibility in doing this. At close quarters, Game & Watch cannot use the turtle again, because Ness's neutral and forward air both come out faster.

No move of ness's will hit gw if he rolls away and tries to hit him during his cooldown, there isn't nearly enough there. The second option would require you to take probably 9 damage yourself, which isn't really the best idea, and also would require that the gw doesn't start maneuvering backwards, which makes it not work. If i see ness use his dj to get above me, im gunna dj myself under him and either up b or nair or up air, all of those would win. Also the dj dair doesn't even hit a standing gdorf, so it probably won't hit a gw using his turtle. After the turtle has pressured ness's shield, gw can most certainly use another turtle before ness can do anything.



There are sixteen frames where there is no hitbox is out between two Game & Watch down tilts. If I remember correctly, including shieldstun, down tilt against shield is a -10 advantage for Game & Watch. Ness can just do charged up smash out of shield, which will hit Game & Watch. Ness can even drop his shield and dash grab Game & Watch.

I really doubt that you could drop your shield, run (the distance of the dtilt) and dash grab, w/o getting hit by the next dtilt. If its possible please show me a video or something and i'll agree. Really his only option for punishment is upsmash oos

Key has fifteen frames of landing lag. Ness can do short hop neutral air in eight frames (including the four frames ot get off the ground).

This would require that gw be exactly next to ness after landing, which won't happen, this move doesn't have enough range to punish (you also forgot sheild drop frames no?). either way you won't hit gw with a nair, he really has no punishment.

How about fast fall air dodge through the wind hitbox of up air...

I can see your inexperienced vs upairs. If you air dodge through the puff you WILL get hit by a nair, guaranteed. I watch for this when suspending opponents and 95% of people try to air dodge through and eat a nair and get sent back up.

Ness can get some extra damage with his forward air, but he won't actually be able to edge guard Mr. Game & Watch, it's true.



Game & Watch is never spiked, but in case you aren't aware, Ness's down air is used more often on the stage. It is a viable approach and it starts combos that cannot be escaped by double jump -- and Ness can easily punish air dodges. It also sets up for tech chases.

Gw's up b out of combos not air dodge. you won't be punishing him here.

Also pk thunder 2, which kills Game & Watch at something like 30% from the centre of the final destination, and can be comboed into from bucket absorption of the tail of pk thunder, or other things.

As mentioned before, this move never connects, feels like moot point.

Ness's back air pushes back shields a lot and also wears them down a lot. It also shield stabs easily. Up air is easy to land; down air -> up air cannot be escaped by double jump, air dodges can be hit anyway, and all of his aerials are too slow to hit Ness before the up air at the range Ness will be before Game & Watch can act after a down air.

Again up b might be able to escape this combo, and can you describe this combo to me? dair has too much landing lag so do you do them both in the air? seems really awkward.


Grab release -> Oil Panic doesn't work. Game & Watch's grab release animation is too slow, and his pummel is much too slow to force a ground break even if his grab release animation weren't too slow. Bucket can be powershielded on reaction assuming you keep your distance from Game & Watch, and while his bucket is full he has a hard time dealing with pk thunder because his aerials do not lend themselves well to avoiding the tail of pk thunder while trying to attack the head. (Key is the best at this, but since it's his only good option, it's easy to deal with.)

Pk thunder is also really slow and will get ness into a lot of trouble if they try to use this to pressure gw. bucket is also useful against edgeguarding ness, he has no way around this, also works the same against all of his approaches.

i feel i have adressed most of your issues here. Overall upsmash oos saves ness in a few places, rest is mostly left up to the fair, which can be avoided or beat by turtle or up b. 7/3 still. Essentially i feel its not even close to a 65/35, thats what i have lucario rated as at the moment, and he can deal with gw's approaches so much better than ness can.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Since when is Pk thunder telegraphed? Ness has the most control over it. He can do so many different things with them.

He stops moving, and he shouts "PK THUNDAH!" When using his Up-B, so it's telegraphed.

Sure you can do fancy things with PK Thunder but there is a lot of time for G&W to react accordingly, and if he punishes you for using PK Thunder which he can, you won't like it at all.

You can actually easily tail whip to PK thunder2 game & watch especially if he buckets to fill up it with tails. Ness will just either hit invincibility frames and stay until they run out, then you will get hit, or just plain out hit you because you had to put the bucket away.

Pshaw, doesn't matter. G&W can just approach and hit through the PK Thunder or hit Ness himself if he wants to.

Tail out prioritizes the key, meaning a Game&Watch using that to hit the ground faster when pk thunder is out will be hit by it.

Big deal, that takes time to set up, and you're not actually going to punish him for having the key already out with PK Thunder.

D air can punish a ton of stuff, that G&W does. This leads to another aerial on G&W. One of the more deadly ones being a U air. The U air actually has the priority to beat a downward key, let alone it also has the faster start up time from my experience. If you air dodge, Ness can punish with another aerial.

For that to happen you need to HOPE that he doesn't D-tilt your D-air approach. U-air outprioritizing Key is silly. For that to happen Ness's head must come up from an angle and hit G&W diagonally from the side.

Ness will F air an offstage G&W not necessary to gimp, but to rack up damage.

You can't hit him out of his Up-B 99% of the time, so that doesn't matter at all.

Ness' B air can hit G&W pretty well when edge guarding. I believe with proper spacing it can extend past the F air. Due to some body retraction stuff Ness does.

Pshaw, just hit his foot and he'll die.

A lot of your arguments are silly. Almost everything Ness does in this matchup is situational and doesn't even work reliably. As long as G&W keeps himself well spaced, nothing from Ness is going to touch him. A lot of the scenarios you mention assume Ness is the only one reacting to everything G&W is doing, and mind you G&W unlike Ness is a character that almost always has a way to escape from being harmed if he thinks the situation looks bad.

 

[Ref]

The D air actually has almost No landing lag and a load of hit stun. Basically Ness short hops D airs then lands lag less and jumps up to follow the character upward.

Pshaw, just hit his foot and he'll die.

Hit Ness foot and you send him forward, and you will probably just been hit by a back air being much closer to the blast zone.

D tilting a Ness Down air gets you hit.... And U air's hit box is not only Ness' head is is actually a bit above Ness' head.

Ness will not use Pk thunder at point blank, he will use it from a distance in which you can't punish it, and not only that but Ness can then curve it pretty much all he wants before going to hit you. The move travels quite quickly.

 

[omegablackmage]

ok i see the dair thingy now, dunno why but when i was using it earlier it looked like it had a lot of landing lag.

also, uair never outprioritizes the dair

 

[K 2]

Geez...Ness people...stop it! Every argument you come up with gets refuted in a millisecond. You Ness users haven't come up with any *viable* solution to deal with G&W. Your only arguments are when G&W screws up spacing or attacks the shield or something less that is the PLAYER's fault, not the CHARACTER's fault. Don't forget about the projectile defense guide for G&W. G&W can cancel most (if not all) projectiles with his tilts, aerials, and bucket. I believe G&W even has a few moves that cancel PKT2.

G&W completely shuts down Ness's projectile game, which is 30% of his moveset.

G&W's dtilt beats out any of Ness's ground approaches.

G&W's bair outranges and outprioritizes Ness's aerials.

G&W can gimp Ness offstage like there is no tomorrow, while all Ness can do is shoot PKT's and fair, all of which G&W can simple up b through using his invincibilty frames.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

"Never" outprioritizes isn't true. Ness' Uair will beat the dair at close range befo. I don't know why, but it happens (and I'm fairly certain the hitbox is out with the animation when this happens).

*edit*
K 2, your post was hardly helpful, and a bit of it was wrong.
A few things in regards to your post:

Dtilt doesn't actually stop Ness' ground approaches, despite it seeming like it does. I have been grabbed a few times out of rapid dtilts by Colinjf. It doesnt stop what Ness is good at, also, aerial approaches. And PKT!

Gimping Ness happens a handful of times in a bunch of matches. Smart use of Ness' second jump will save you a lot of grief, and it is pretty obvious when G&W is going towards an offstage Ness, where the Ness can throw out a fair/uair/nair in response.

Also G&W cant cancel out PKT2's first half. Ness is invincible. The second half can be stopped by stuff like Usmash, but your best bet to a grounded PKT2 is to shield and then usmash Ness.

 

[ColinJF]

Game & Watch cannot use Fire to escape Ness's down air combos because you can't use a special while in hitstun; your options out of hitstun are using an aerial or an air dodge, not a special or a double jump.

Ness's up air comes out faster than the key, so if they are at close range, you will see the key animation, and then Game & Watch will be hit by the up air... nothing is actually being beat since the key has no hitbox out, but that's what it looks like.

Jumping out of shield doesn't have the usual shield drop lag.

Pk thunder 2 is a practical kill move.

Geez...Ness people...stop it! Every argument you come up with gets refuted in a millisecond. You Ness users haven't come up with any *viable* solution to deal with G&W.

Oh don't be so condescending.

You could easily say the reverse... every argument you come up with is refuted in a millisecond. You Game & Watch users... blah blah blah. What a bunch of drivel.

 

[A2ZOMG]

D tilting a Ness Down air gets you hit.... And U air's hit box is not only Ness' head is is actually a bit above Ness' head.

All G&W has to do then is retreat, then D-tilt. or up-B out of shield.

And the disjoint on Ness's head doesn't go past D-air btw.

I'll play this matchup with someone, just to prove that it's bad for Ness.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Edit:

Actually, I will fight you, A2ZOMG! With my supreme Ness >:]

 

[Ref]

Ah okay, I guess I was angling the U air properly, nonetheless it does activate faster, which is essential to the the key not hitting Ness from the D air to u air.

The key for Ness to win this match up is closing gaps so he can compete with G&W's turtle. Projectiles aren't completely hindered for Ness in this match up like some state. Ness just has to play smart, G&w has gaps in his attacks for Ness to take advantage of. Ness has tools to close this space. Ness is usually a master at punishing rolls so a G&W trying to create space by rolling will not be doing a smart move if he isn't at the space to do it. D airs are the usual tool for roll punishment. Thanks to a long hit box lasting D air and aerial mobility.

Dash attack, up smash, Down smash and grabs make up most of Ness' ground game. This does not make it weak, because it has the ability to beat spot dodges and grabbing is self explanatory against shields. Ness will use A d air or N air if needed against rolls or spot dodges, due to the ease of doing them out of shields and the chaining ability they have.

Projectile usage is just like any other character once G&W's bucket is full. If you guys are thinking about bucketing pk fire pillar parts do not, this can pretty much lead you into a pk thunder 2 or a semi charged bat. Pk thunder can still juggle G&W with proper usage of the tail.

A G&W D air landed can be grabbed. I believe it might be possible to still have the time to grab G&W if he is at a decent height, and fans a Pk thunder with the D air then proceeds to land with lag.

And I hope you guys are basing this on Offline experience, because online, a Ness is hindered drastically. Some of the attacks you find un punishable by Ness can be found to be easily punished when you come off of Wi Fi. Online proves nothing.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Edit:

Actually, I will fight you, A2ZOMG! With my supreme Ness >:]

Sure thing. I guess try to catch me at 3:00 PST after school. Especially on Friday where I have free time from school.

 

[ColinJF]

MrEsc doesn't even play Ness. He was joking.

 

[omegablackmage]

its true that gw has gaps in his approach games and whatnot, but so does mk.

you guys are right, ness can win in this matchup, when playing smart, which is why the matchup isn't a 100/0.

i think maybe the ness players need to take a step back and look at the big picture. Ness has little range, gw has lots of it, they have comparable speeds, gw has much better recovery than ness, gw has much better edgeguarding than ness, gw kills better than ness. I still say its a 7/3, read what i wrote about lucario and see if you can tell me that ness is better at punishing gw than lucario, then i might be convinced.

 

[Ref]

Ness has a lot more range / priority you guys give him credit for the. Ness also has a much better dashing grab / general throws than Lucario. Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't Ness have a lot more KO power than Lucario unless Lucario is losing and at higher percent? Ness has very similar range to lucario, a well spaced F air has more range than Lucario's attacks, with more general KO power and pretty much similar tools to punish moves.

Ness and Lucario are both talked similarly about their recovery, both can pretty much be gimped just as badly.

What Lucario does have over Ness is a bit more grounded range, both have moves that are made to punish spot dodges.

Ness has more control over his projectile game than lucario, Lucario fires an aura sphere and he travels in the same path toward the opponent, Ness uses Pk thunder 2 and it can be maneuvered drastically.

Pk thunder can juggle G&W, how does Lucario juggle G&W? Probably by out spacing the aerials and avoided them, this is just like Ness would with his aerials,however he does have slightly more ranged than Lucario in the air.

If you want to compare Ness to Lucario then go ahead but Ness has more if not the same options to G&W.

Lucario is heavier than Ness though.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Ness has little range? He has quite a bit of it through his quirky hitboxes. He outranges G&W on the ground save for Oil Panic, and his Fair has more range than any of G&W's aerials save the turtle. Overall, Ness has the frame advantage on the startup time of his movements, and this is being over looked quite a bit, since he has to be poking G&W for consistent damage.

Also, Ness doesnt have a rough time landing a grab on all but the most conservative G&W's, and it's only easy to avoid these if he's making a point trying to land one.

G&W is a better character by far. Better recovery, safer kill moves, and a great edgeguarding game. If it was just based on how good they are in the elements in brawl, I would agree with it being 7:3 for G&W, but lower tiered guys still have answers. Just look at what A2ZOMG thinks about Ganon vs G&W. :/

This shouldnt be about convincing you, OBM. That makes this list feel really like IvanEva's matchup chart, and not what the two communities agree on.

 

[Gaussis]

Ness has comparable range to G&W.

A 7/3 matchup is warranted when the lesser character has to mindgame the opponent to win because there isn't much that character can do. Ness does not fall under that category in this matchup. Rather, he has very good options for some of G&W's good moves. He has the range to fight G&W in the air. Finally, his projectiles aren't fully negated by the bucket, as many assume. If you still feel really on the extreme side, put it at 65:35. I feel a 60:40 is a more correct score.

 

[omegablackmage]

no im not saying that I have to be convinced, but i think i do play a fair part in the discussion. Most of what i see the ness players talking about is very situational things, whereas gw has the advantage the majority of the time.

ref - lucario has much much better combos than ness does. Ftilt/fsmash/upsmash all have really good range. Aura sphere is a much better punishing projectile than any of ness's imo. Lucario is much heavier as mentioned. I would say that lucario/ness are pretty even in the ko department. The big thing that sticks out in that matchup is lucarios severe lead in being able to punish on the ground. Fsmash and ftilt are both excellent and give lucario a fighting chance against gw's offense, whereas ness really doesn't have anything.

is there a good example of ness's projectiles being able to fool someone? if i see a pkt, i know that i probably won't get hit by it if i just air dodge through it, and it puts ness in such a bad position. IMO i'd rather have lucario's projectile than all of ness's.



gaus - honestly if im fighting a ness, i will probably spam bair more than usual knowing that ness has nothing to combat it with, thus i really don't think he really wins in the air. One multi purpose move can really make or break a matchup. Look at marths up b or his dancing blade for example.


also does ness have any good stages vs gw? that also hurts ness quite a bit in this matchup. Is there a video of a ness player competing with a good gw? and doing well? i would really like to see

 

[Ref]

Ness has little range? He has quite a bit of it through his quirky hitboxes. He outranges G&W on the ground save for Oil Panic, and his Fair has more range than any of G&W's aerials save the turtle. Overall, Ness has the frame advantage on the startup time of his movements, and this is being over looked quite a bit, since he has to be poking G&W for consistent damage.

Also, Ness doesnt have a rough time landing a grab on all but the most conservative G&W's, and it's only easy to avoid these if he's making a point trying to land one.

G&W is a better character by far. Better recovery, safer kill moves, and a great edgeguarding game. If it was just based on how good they are in the elements in brawl, I would agree with it being 7:3 for G&W, but lower tiered guys still have answers. Just look at what A2ZOMG thinks about Ganon vs G&W. :/

This shouldnt be about convincing you, OBM. That makes this list feel really like IvanEva's matchup chart, and not what the two communities agree on.

Ness has comparable range to G&W.

A 7/3 matchup is warranted when the lesser character has to mindgame the opponent to win because there isn't much that character can do. Ness does not fall under that category in this matchup. Rather, he has very good options for some of G&W's good moves. He has the range to fight G&W in the air. Finally, his projectiles aren't fully negated by the bucket, as many assume. If you still feel really on the extreme side, put it at 65:35. I feel a 60:40 is a more correct score.

These two post pretty much sum up what we talked about, for every situation we gave you a choice that Ness has, for every problem we presented a counter problem, the only thing that really makes this match up with Ness at a disadvantage is just the fact that Ness is said to be a worse character than G&W. Go ahead and write 65-35 if you believe it should be like that, but if you actually want to take all the points mentioned, write 60-40.

Comparing everything, we gave solutions / counter problems. So I feel these two post should be quoted.


And pretty much these two post are what is happening right now

Geez...Ness people...stop it! Every argument you come up with gets refuted in a millisecond. You Ness users haven't come up with any *viable* solution to deal with G&W

You could easily say the reverse... every argument you come up with is refuted in a millisecond. You Game & Watch users... blah blah blah. What a bunch of drivel.

Both sides have found ways to get around every argument, it seems there is nothing left to say. So with all this, I would easily come to the conclusion 60-40 G&W Advantage. But of course it is your boards so you G&W mains choose to put the match up % you want.

is there a good example of ness's projectiles being able to fool someone? if i see a pkt, i know that i probably won't get hit by it if i just air dodge through it, and it puts ness in such a bad position. IMO i'd rather have lucario's projectile than all of ness's.

It travels fast enough and the tail is long enough to hit you if you air dodge. Ness has more control over it than what you have after trying to avoid it with air dodging. I believe this is the last point that went unaddressed in this argument I stated that Lucario does have greater ground range than Ness and that lingering hit boxes do help Lucario, but Ness has the same but with less range but still enough to out range G&w' ground game being his up and down smashes plus, dash attack. Yes Lucario does have a better combo game but Ness has a combo game that leads to a very deadly aerial for G&W. Even with Lucario in KO power is probably only when lucario is at high percents, which he will probably rarely be at the higher percents because of G&W's KO power...

I feel that all points have been addressed and I say 60-40 in this match up...

 

[omegablackmage]

ok considering those two posts you quoted. lets say that gw realizes ness has a nice fair and starts to pressure with just back airs? what can ness do? even if ness runs away on the ground he can't do anything to punish. If he goes in the air above gw a quick dair can't hit him (goes too high), and after the bair is done gw can easily start punishing with up air/up b's nairs.

you guys make it seem like the fair is some unbreakable wall. I would agree if the turtle didn't beat it, but it does. In every other situation in the air gw will **** ness.

and i'll have to agree with hylian, gw is very difficult to grab. Up's out of anything will make it impossible for ness to chase to a grab.

if someone responds to this well enough i might be inclined to reduce it to a 65/35, given that this is the really only debated aspect.

(i still say that terrible off stage game [edgeguarding/recovery], terrible ko options, terrible stage picks, etc make it a 7/3 reguardless of this point being discussed)

 

[Ref]

Ness can shield, Ness' shield is huge compared to his body. We address the answers to the turtle, Ness just has to get closer. A bunch of B airs well spaced, will probably mean you having to head slightly back, in which case you will eventually have no room.

Once you are out of room what can you do? Other aerials can be out prioritized by an F air, jumping over Ness does leave an opening. If you choose to use the turtle again there is smash DI. Up B'ing over Ness, means you will have to land, landing leaves openings for attacks, now if you U air, you are raising Ness up allowing him to get to the other side faster with you, Unless you just want to keep U airing, then the gap is still closed and Ness can still do the aerials that even the turtle out ranges. Landing near ness with the turtle is asking to be grabbed.

If anything Ness will just stay back and Pk thunder all he wants, there isn't much to lose, until you either have to close the space between you and Ness, or just slowly be raised in percents. Now if you choose to fill up your bucket you will have to keep emptying it for you to take more pk thunders in.

Filling the bucket leaves you with lag.

The turtle can be answered, we addressed points like this before, everything has been discussed that one move shouldn't make a 60-40 match up if you truly consider all points go to 70-30.

Just wondering which good Ness' have you faced?

 

[omegablackmage]

i've played you before, did you forget? : )

you didn't really give an answer to the turtle. say we're both in the middle of the stage, and i turtle your sheild, you either have to roll back or sheild and move forward slightly, by the time i 'get' to the edge, your sheild will be broken or i will likely have been shield poked. what you were explaining didn't really make any sense.

pk thundering isn't really an option if you ask me, being on opposite sides of the stage, you have to shoot up and then you go twords the opponent. I can just run at you and then shield it, then what? if you do it again then i'll certainly be able to punish you, and otherwise im within turtling range, which goes to the first paragraph i made, where i point out that ness has no options.

 

[A2ZOMG]

G&W is a better character by far. Better recovery, safer kill moves, and a great edgeguarding game. If it was just based on how good they are in the elements in brawl, I would agree with it being 7:3 for G&W, but lower tiered guys still have answers. Just look at what A2ZOMG thinks about Ganon vs G&W. :/

Which reminds me:

Ganondorf is the only low tier character that has guaranteed combos on G&W at all percents (that do over 20%, no less). Not to mention he's able to actually KO G&W in the 60-80% range if G&W missteps his spacing slightly (F-smash has a pretty good disjointed hitbox, good leanback, and overall a lot of range and KO power). Or he can simply wait til 110% and combo into an undiminished F-tilt/D-tilt and kill G&W that way. Also, Ganondorf on most attacks actually has more range than G&W (not disjointed though, he still gets owned by a G&W that spaces well with B-air because of this).

Ness does not have good combos on G&W and he lacks a lot in terms of being able to KO G&W easily.

 

[omegablackmage]

i will say that i think gdorf does better vs gw than ness does.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, and once we get to that matchup OBM, I should emphasize Ganondorf still CLEARLY loses the matchup when you consider everything, despite obviously having better tools on G&W than pretty much any other low tier character.

 

[_clinton]

Funny how people take the other fight request but not mine...oh well...bye for now...

 

[A2ZOMG]

You want a match? Maybe I'll play you this weekend. You look like you live closer to me than Mr. Escalator. If you're up for it, leave me a message, and ideally tell me if you have access to IM service.

 

[Gaussis]

i've played you before, did you forget? : )

you didn't really give an answer to the turtle. say we're both in the middle of the stage, and i turtle your sheild, you either have to roll back or sheild and move forward slightly, by the time i 'get' to the edge, your sheild will be broken or i will likely have been shield poked. what you were explaining didn't really make any sense.

pk thundering isn't really an option if you ask me, being on opposite sides of the stage, you have to shoot up and then you go twords the opponent. I can just run at you and then shield it, then what? if you do it again then i'll certainly be able to punish you, and otherwise im within turtling range, which goes to the first paragraph i made, where i point out that ness has no options.

Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the turtle hitbox disappear as G&W approaches the ground with bair. If so, we jump and dair. If not, nvm.

PKT won't be used at long range, considering that the bucket can't be punished at that range and the shield. However, at midrange, Ness will throw it out to limit your options (and ideally to set up a PKT2). You may get hit out of the turtle if you start it later than PKT. Shielding it is a risky option since PKT can scrape the outside of the shield for a shieldpoke. Ref already described why airdodging is bad. Finally, unsuccessful bucketing may get you punished with a PKT2.

@A2ZOMG: Ness may not be able to combo G&W effectively, but he does have several KO options. One is bair, which can be match against even disjointed hitboxes. It reaches farther than the animation implies. Ness ends up trading hits a lot because if it, though. FF Uair is also a good option, as it can catch landing opponents quite well. Then there's the grab.

 

[omegablackmage]

no the turtle has a landing hitbox, so if it hitting your shield, one more hit comes out upon landing, adding to the shield stun. Next post will be the summary

 

[omegablackmage]

Ness: (70/30)

General Matchup:

• Ness works with a variety of specialized projectiles, and some range to boot. Become familiar with ness's capabilities.
• Ness's priority can be found in his dash attack, fair, and upsmash for the most part. A lot of his other moves do have a lot of priority, however they are either very short ranged or too slow to see that often.
• Most of ness's kills will be from the back throw. Make use of your up b to escape sticky situations that would get you grabbed. Other moves that can kill are pkt2, bair, dair, upair, and fsmash but these moves should be fairly easily outranged or simply avoided.
• Ness's recovering will usually consist of them doing what they can to return with a dj, avoiding using their upb. When dj'ing, they will usually fair to keep a hitbox infront of them to cover their path. Upb, when used properly can recover from a variety of situations and ranges, and can hurt pretty bad if you mess up edgeguarding it.
• Ness's edgeguards by tossing an up b your way to possibly hit you, or maybe drop down and fair, these don't work too well and can potentially put ness in a bad situation, he won't be able to edgeguard you for the most part.
• Most combo's i've seen from ness are from a dair that was landed while gw was on the ground to an up air or another aerial. Other combos might be landed pk fires to grab combos. These are pretty specific however, most of ness's play styles involve hit and run methods.
• Gw's combos work pretty well, per usual. He is pretty small, which works to your disadvantage, nair/bair don't get as many hits in per average, but still work well. Dthrow works well vs teching ness's as his tech roll is pretty average. I would still up throw a lot to get up air chains in, he really doesn't have an answer for it.

General Strategies:

• Offstage when ness is recovering, all gw really has to do is wait. If ness is looking to use his dj to get back from below (slowfall key works nicely) and from the side (dtilt beats both fair and just him trying to grab the edge). Overall you'll be working around ness's fair. If gw sees the ness start the up b sequence, a fair will knock him out of this easily. If he's too far away for that, its likely that he needs to grab the edge, which a hog solves. If you are too far into the stage to do anything, grab the ledge and use the up air to get a smash off and punish. Also the bucket is useful to absorb the whole pkthunder killing ness, and the up b can push ness really high up out of range for the thunder to hit him.
• Ness has a pretty silly fair, don't underestimate this move. It will out reach all but your bair head to head. If the ness is throwing this out a lot use your back air to close the distance and then you can apply pressure through the normal methods.
• Dash attack and sliding upsmashes are decent approaches when spaced correctly (coming from ness). You'll know he's going do to do these however as he has to be dashing to get effectiveness out of these. Remember to up b out of shield if you feel pressured by ness at all.
• This matchup is pretty boring overall. The two characters are reduced to a few moves to approach with. Gw will take the cake off the stage and on the ground, and the two characters will go pretty even in the air. Make use of your combos to rack up lots of damage and perfect your edgeguarding to ensure victories.

Stages:

• Given ness having very picky recovery, RC, frigate, and japes all will work pretty well. Even norfair and corneria would probably work well too.
• Personally i would avoid yoshi's island, because he could potentially camp under that platform, but he doesn't have too many advantages on too many stages.

 

[Hylian]

Very nice OBM.

 

[A2ZOMG]

ROB is like 65/35 in G&W's favor easily, if not worse for ROB.

I use ROB on the side, so I've played this matchup on both sides. G&W in short is really hard to hit. ROB DOES have a range advantage over him, but it's not disjointed, and ROB in general is a huge target, so it's very difficult to safely rack on damage to G&W. Well, you can of course try to camp against him, but lasers can't be spammed against him because of the Bucket. Gyro is good against G&W and starts up combos in the right situation, but if he grabs it, he's really scary because he has better glidetoss combos.

G&W is also very good at edgeguarding ROB. D-air edgeguard is scary for ROB to deal with and not only hurts ROB, but puts ROB above G&W or stagespikes him, which is to his disadvantage.

Since G&W is ridiculously powerful on Smashes and F-air, ROB doesn't survive as long as he'd like to in this matchup. His ridiculous juggling makes it hard for ROB to get back to the ground too, and it can deal a lot of damage to ROB if he's unlucky.

Oh yeah, and U-tilt is actually a viable attack on ROB in this matchup. ROB is so floaty and has so much trouble dealing with stuff below him that a well-timed U-tilt can be used to punish him as he comes down. Personally, I've actually used this as a surprise KO move at high percents.

Now for what ROB has going for him:
Range. As long as you can interrupt G&W's attacks with your superior speed, you have the advantage. F-tilt is faster than most of G&W's attacks and has HUUUUUGE range. Grab is pretty good. D-tilt outclasses G&W's. D-smash is risky in this matchup because of the lingering hitboxes G&W can use to punish it. N-air is good for scoring KOs on G&W due to having more range and pretty good vertical knockback.

D-throw -> U-air is a combo on G&W as long as he doesn't jump away, keep in mind. Does like 36%, so G&W doesn't want to be hit by that.

U-throw is good at high percents since G&W is lightweight.

Dunno, I'll add more if anything occurs to me.

 

[DRaGZ]

Game and Watch is easily R.O.B.'s second worst match-up, Meta Knight being the first because he's so much faster.

All R.O.B. really has going for him is the f-tilt and the ability to throw out projectiles in diverse ways, but that's it man.

And Game and Watch is one of the few characters in the game that really, really messes with R.O.B.'s recovery, so much that he can potentially just run out of gas somewhat often if the Game and Watch knows what's goin' on.

65:35 for G&W. The flat man is just too good.

 

[omegablackmage]

I think gw edgeguards quite well in this matchup.

Usually what i do is sit on the ledge and toss bacon if they are coming from the side or below diagonally.
If they come from above dj up b will usually knock them back out. If they come from below, rar'd key near the edge will hit them.

When they get closer i switch from bacon to dtilt usually, rob's will approach with aerials or try to grab the ledge. If they come from below try to get a key out like before. Dtilt beats upairs from below and fairs spaced. Jumping off and fairing can also work well in your favor if you know when to use it.

If they grab the ledge i usually wait, i'll shield when i see movement. If they get up attack, you can sh a fair to knock them back out. If they roll turn around and grab them/throw them out. If they get up, this can throw you off, try to predict it i guess and grab them. If they jump from ledge, either jump nair to up b or just up b to knock them back out.

If you rinse and repeat this method, they will run out of gas shortly and die. Of course smart players will have their tricks too, this doesn't mean gw will always kill rob if he's off the stage. Lasers, going under the stage, smart up b'ing can all help save the rob.

 

[GameQ]

60/40, this is until I master the match up, **** and record...

I wish....

~GameQ

 

[A2ZOMG]

There is only one real way for ROB to win this matchup from what I've seen.

Camp G&W, hope he doesn't Bucket lasers, hope he doesn't catch the Gyro, grab him a LOT as this is ROB's most reliable means of tacking on damage to G&W, D-smash if he badly spaces an approach while you camp, F-tilt or D-tilt when he whiffs an attack in close range, and space a N-air carefully or go for a U-throw when KOing him.

 

[GameQ]

G&W actually uses his laggy smashes to his advantage in this match-up. ROB has trouble spot dodging the hammers, flame stick, and helmet cause it hits after the spot dodge. Rolling away and coming back in is an option, but G&W has a habit of dashing into an up smash to make me regret thinking that...

I agree with the post that camp, camp, and more camp can give ROB an advantage, but if you fighting a ROB then you should already have a game plan to get around the camp.

My first time facing a pro G&W vs Princess Aura

notice I only do somewhat well when i go 100% camp mode, the rest is all G&W

Game1
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