Game & Watch Match-up Export Thread Directory

[Mr. Escalator]

That Kirby and that G&W sucked (in both of you two's examples).
It's probably a 65-45 matchup in G&W's favor. I have only played a handful of Kirbys and I wasnt impressed.

 

[Asdioh]

That Kirby and that G&W sucked (in both of you two's examples).
It's probably a 65-45 matchup in G&W's favor. I have only played a handful of Kirbys and I wasnt impressed.

lulz, blunt much?

wifi?

65-45 makes sense? phail

on top of the fact that "only playing a handful of kirbys" somehow makes you an expert :/

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I didnt say I was an expert, nor do I expect my word to be taken on the matchup. My post was made to comment on both of your videos: The kiby A2ZOMG played sucked, as did the G&W you played. The rest of it was my opinion on the matchup based off of what is being said about the matchup and what I know about the both of them. I think G&W beats Kirby handily, and thats my opinion.

The way you type is really annoying.
OH LULZ HE MADE A TYPO OMG XDDD

Sheesh.

 

[A2ZOMG]

The point of the match I posted is that Kirby doesn't have enough on G&W onstage, and he loses by a lot OFFstage. Notice pretty much every single time he recovered from below, he got punished. What this means is you are forced to recover from above, which is still not a good position to be in against G&W.

In general, there aren't many positions where G&W is at a clear disadvantage in this matchup. However there are a few important ones where Kirby is at a significant disadvantage, and that is above G&W, and offstage. If G&W takes a hit, he just takes damage, and gets to continue what he was doing for the most part. If Kirby takes a hit, G&W has more options to follow up.

 

[Asdioh]

I didnt say I was an expert, nor do I expect my word to be taken on the matchup. My post was made to comment on both of your videos: The kiby A2ZOMG played sucked, as did the G&W you played. The rest of it was my opinion on the matchup based off of what is being said about the matchup and what I know about the both of them. I think G&W beats Kirby handily, and thats my opinion.

The way you type is really annoying.
OH LULZ HE MADE A TYPO OMG XDDD

Sheesh.

Sorry, it's just the way you said it made it seem like you were coming off as arrogant and all-knowing. You just threw a number out there and didn't say much else. I see what you mean though...and as far as I know, that G&W is actually pretty good, he beats me almost every time I play him, and he's high on the allisbrawl ladder.

He does rely a little too much on spamming though...

I thought you were saying my Kirby sucked, I was gonna be like "ARE YOU ASKING FOR A CHALLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNGEEEEEE?

In general, there aren't many positions where G&W is at a clear disadvantage in this matchup.

You know, I think that sentence just cleared it up for me, because it's pretty much true.

Still, 60-40 seems closest to reality for me.
I'd be willing to put it as 65-35 on wifi though ^_^

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Lol, nice reference Asdioh. Nah, your Kirby is pretty good.
I could go either one on this. 60 or 65 advantage.
I'll try and find a kirby with a good connection and do some matches

 

[Asdioh]

Lol, nice reference Asdioh. Nah, your Kirby is pretty good.
I could go either one on this. 60 or 65 advantage.
I'll try and find a kirby with a good connection and do some matches

Wow, you actually got that reference? That's impressive.

I have a pretty good conneckshin >_>

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I still feel the need to dispute Ness being 70-30 there. I finally have a vid to show why I disagree =) http://www.getyourtournament.com/multimedia/2008/11/ucla-monthly-vii-edrees-vs-leepuff_23.html Am I allowed to still post this regarding Ness even if it's Kirby time now?

I'd like to also point out that lee puff is the best game and watch in california and can take matches off DSF's metaknight. But he somehow managed to struggle versus a non Ness main. I just think it's something to think about it.

EDIT: sorry i linked to the wrong match

 

[Neb]

I still feel the need to dispute Ness being 70-30 there. I finally have a vid to show why I disagree =) http://www.getyourtournament.com/multimedia/2008/11/ucla-monthly-vii-edrees-vs-leepuff_23.html Am I allowed to still post this regarding Ness even if it's Kirby time now?

I'd like to also point out that lee puff is the best game and watch in california and can take matches off DSF's metaknight. But he somehow managed to struggle versus a non Ness main. I just think it's something to think about it.

EDIT: sorry i linked to the wrong match

He jumped into the **** first stock.
IMO, he wasn't using his advantages, and was somewhat treating the match-up like any other, that is, until towards the end. Ness did good in baiting bucket, and spacing fair, etc. Its more like, 65:35. Ness has the tools to win if G&W isn't on point.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I disagree with the Ness matchup as well, but meeeeerp.
Asdioh, if you want, we can try to do a few matchups!

 

[jiggly_owns_u]

I might not be known around here but i'd like to point out that leepuff obv didnt seem to have much experience vs ness, however i think that the ness-G&W matchup is more like 65-35

Ness's aerials (specifically his fair) are pretty decent and f-smash is a good killing move

 

[jiggly_owns_u]

Also, towards the kirby&G&W matchup...

Against good kirby's i wouldn't suggest approaching with short-hopped bairs cuz he will simply jump and punish u with a bair and his f-smash stings if ur caught with it by the ledge/if u dont react to di accordingly

 

[K 2]

I still feel the need to dispute Ness being 70-30 there. I finally have a vid to show why I disagree =) http://www.getyourtournament.com/multimedia/2008/11/ucla-monthly-vii-edrees-vs-leepuff_23.html Am I allowed to still post this regarding Ness even if it's Kirby time now?

I'd like to also point out that lee puff is the best game and watch in california and can take matches off DSF's metaknight. But he somehow managed to struggle versus a non Ness main. I just think it's something to think about it.

EDIT: sorry i linked to the wrong match

Matchups are based off of theoritcal advantages and disadvantages. If the player screws up spacing or does something stupid (like SH fair into Ness's shield), that's human error.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I thought matchups were based off the metagame and realistic ability for two really good players to perform at that level. I don't see the practicality of assuming neither people makes any mistake and is perfect. Would not IC have a nearly 100-0 matchup versus everyone in that case? Oh well, I just treat the matchup discussion differently on the Peach boards. Assuming both players are completely perfect and make completely no mistakes at all, I'd actually be fine with how you guys have it set.

 

[Cubone]

Wow I made a mistake here. I was more focused on the ratios or w/e you want to call them rather than the actual discussion and I just realized I was looking at most of them backwards. My bad just ignore it -will try not posting when he's half asleep anymore-

 

[omegablackmage]

moot - tell me which ones in particular you think are out of date, i read them from time to time to see if they still make sense and as far as i can remember they still fit...

ness matchup - couple points: lee is very good, but essentially fell into a very very bad trap.
☼ matchup inexperience caused a lot of damage first stock, gets back thrown
☼ spends 80% of his next stock spamming kill moves, lands it, then gets back thrown
☼ begins to spam again, lands the kill, taking less damage this time
☼ learns to space and gets a pretty **** lucky up smash.

overall what i feel like this match shows is that, yes given matchup inexperience you will get *****. If you guys can come up with more videos of ness's competeing with gw, i'll certainly change the ratio. But for now i don't think i can given the circumstances of the terrible playing in the match.

btw, really nice ness edrees, you play so aggressive.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

That's fair enough, I like your breakdown there, very logical.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I have several replays of me beating ColinJF, and he likely has several matches of him beating me. Should I try and sort out a few of the closer ones between us?

 

[K 2]

I thought matchups were based off the metagame and realistic ability for two really good players to perform at that level. I don't see the practicality of assuming neither people makes any mistake and is perfect. Would not IC have a nearly 100-0 matchup versus everyone in that case? Oh well, I just treat the matchup discussion differently on the Peach boards. Assuming both players are completely perfect and make completely no mistakes at all, I'd actually be fine with how you guys have it set.

I'm not saying they had to be played perfectly. You can't let human error determine matchup ratios. As you said, Match-ups are determined by the current metagame and realistic ability of the players, but you have to assume they don't make *simple* errors such as spacing mistakes

For example, let's say G&W didn't space his bair properly against Ness. Ness shield grabs him and kills G&W. That's a human error.

 

[ColinJF]

Human error does determine match up ratios... specifically how likely it is to be made and the effects of it happening and so on. This includes spacing errors by the way. If human error doesn't determine match up ratios then every match up should be 100-0 or 0-100, except for dittos, since the only variation in the winner of a match comes from either human error or random elements, and the random elements in Brawl are too insignificant to account for matches not being 100-0. (We are assuming that both players are at the same overall "skill level", or propensity for making errors, for match up ratios in general, so that isn't a factor.)

A more formal approach might be something like this. What do we really mean when we say both players are at the same skill level? What we mean is that their skill levels, namely A and B, can be represented as two probability distributions with a characteristic function of the same family describing a distribution Q that depends on your character and the opponent, let's say A ~ Q(Ness, Game & Watch), B ~ Q(Game & Watch, Ness), and the match up ratio is P(B > A). In other words, the random variable A gives you a particular value for players A's skill in that match up, and the random variable B gives you a particular value for player B's skill in that match up, The match up ratio is the chance of a random value of random variable A being greater than random variable B.

It's plainly apparent from this formalisation that "human error" is the factor determining match up ratios. Interestingly, this formalisation also allows us to explain some related ideas. For example, in the later rounds of a tournament we might expect the variance in Q to be lower, since you are "warmed up", giving rise to more extreme match up ratios (closer to 100-0).

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

I love G&W, I just don't like how some players use him. That fortress of priority = death.

 

[fox219]

Toon Link I agree is probably a 4/6 matchup, in favor of Toon Link naturally.

I think Toon Link is a bit better at escaping U-air stalling than most other characters, because he can drop bombs (fortunately you can U-air those back up if you wish), and if he manages to move outside of G&W's range with DI, his D-air can bring him to the ground fast, and it's fairly low lag even when it hits the ground, and it seems to send out a shockwave that makes it a little harder to punish him if I recall. Fortunately, he can't really D-air through your U-air because your U-air's pushback beats that anyway.

Yeah, Toon Link also basically has the best attacks with which to kill G&W. His U-smash is fast and deadly (unlike Link's which mainly is a damage dealer with high priority). U-air can beat your D-air. Yeah.

I can't remember if TL's D-air has more priority than your Up-B...

Other minor things I find annoying is how most characters start up smash attacks faster than G&W.

Agreed!!!!!!!!!!!! Game & Watch rules!

 

[K 2]

Human error does determine match up ratios... specifically how likely it is to be made and the effects of it happening and so on. This includes spacing errors by the way. If human error doesn't determine match up ratios then every match up should be 100-0 or 0-100, except for dittos, since the only variation in the winner of a match comes from either human error or random elements, and the random elements in Brawl are too insignificant to account for matches not being 100-0. (We are assuming that both players are at the same overall "skill level", or propensity for making errors, for match up ratios in general, so that isn't a factor.)

A more formal approach might be something like this. What do we really mean when we say both players are at the same skill level? What we mean is that their skill levels, namely A and B, can be represented as two probability distributions with a characteristic function of the same family describing a distribution Q that depends on your character and the opponent, let's say A ~ Q(Ness, Game & Watch), B ~ Q(Game & Watch, Ness), and the match up ratio is P(B > A). In other words, the random variable A gives you a particular value for players A's skill in that match up, and the random variable B gives you a particular value for player B's skill in that match up, The match up ratio is the chance of a random value of random variable A being greater than random variable B.

It's plainly apparent from this formalisation that "human error" is the factor determining match up ratios. Interestingly, this formalisation also allows us to explain some related ideas. For example, in the later rounds of a tournament we might expect the variance in Q to be lower, since you are "warmed up", giving rise to more extreme match up ratios (closer to 100-0).

Human error shouldn't determine the match up ratio. It certainly affects the match up ratio, along with man other factors, such as current metagame and player skill level. As I said before, they aren't played perfectly. You just can't say, "Ness can easily shield grab G&W and bthrow kill him 3 times and G&W is over with 50-50". Of course, G&W will be grabbed more than once throughout the match, but so will Ness. If G&W effectively uses shield pressure on Ness, his chances of being shield grabbed become really small. You also have to take into account of the chances of Ness being shield grabbed. The theoretical players would make the same mistakes, the same number/percentage of the time, but taking into account the characteristics of the movesets and metagame of each character, the ratio changes from being balanced to becoming swayed.

 

[ColinJF]

Maybe you should reread what I wrote, since I already addressed most of your ideas. You actually seem to agree with my overall point. Are you sure you understood that my post was about match up ratios in the abstract? Your response is as though I had said anything about the Ness v. Game & Watch match up, which I didn't.

I didn't address any specifics of the Ness v. Game & Watch match up, since that wasn't what the post was about (unlike yours).

I might write a longer essay about match up ratios some time with tangible examples, if you're interested.

 

[K 2]

God, I'm tired of debates. Arguing over the banning of CG's and infintes wore me out.

I agree that human error plays a factor in matchup ratios, which is caused by players of similar skill level. I do NOT believe that it is the determining factor. I believe metagame and such are more important. Honestly...why are we arguing about this? I really don't care and it really doesn't matter. This is suppose to be the kirby matchup discussion and here we are arguing about some random topic that has nothing to do with anything...

 

[Tomkraven]

hey guys... why dont we get back on topic.. we are talking about kirby right?
Anyway, about kirby theres a few things i can say. First is that kirbys love their fmash which is quite good actually but theres a big disadvantage while using it, its cooldown lag. It is so long that theres enough time for a GnW to drop down their shield and fsmash back. Another advantage for GnW against kirby is that he is so light and floaty that their grab combos dont work very well on him. Also kirby's spike is kinda useless against him because of the great vertical range of GnW's up b.

well that all for now... ill continue later.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Agreed!!!!!!!!!!!! Game & Watch rules!

You quoted a reeeeeealy old post.

 

[omegablackmage]

Kirby: (60/40)

General Matchup

• Kirby has a lot of mobility and amazing combos. You'll find that he has plenty of ability to maneuver around your disjointed hitboxes and retaliate.
• Kirby's priority/range are not really all that profound. Some moves like fsmash, bair, hammer (side b), have pretty good range, but for the most part, gw's attacks will outprioritize and outrange kirby's.
• Kirby has plenty of kill moves to keep him a very viable character. Fsmash and hammer are probably his best. These moves are fairly fast and pack a huge punch. Upsmash, dsmash, bair, and dair spikes also account for some of kirby's kills.
• Kirby is probably one of the better edgeguarders vs gw, but still isn't all that amazing. The big thing here is the multiple jumps and his general maneuverability. He has the potential to sneak bairs in to push you further off, however you'll find that overpowering him with aerials and up b's will get you through. Kirby's down b will likely go through your up b if space right.
• Edgeguarding kirby is probably going to involve rushing him off the stage with fairs, and trying to force him to use his up b under the ledge. If you can predict this in time, a reverse dair will probably knock him into the ledge.
• Kirby has some amazing combos that spring from his grab. Fthrow at low percents usually lead into an upair to reverse up tilt. Up b as soon as you can to escape this (probably only after the uptilt). Other combos usually will come from well spaced uptilts, dthrows, etc. Don't underestimate how quickly he can rack damage up.
• Kirby is fairly small, which can make it difficult to tech chase and land solid bair/nair hits. Also kirby is fairly good at rolling/teching out of the dthrow and he can also avoid upair harrassment by down b'ing. This makes kirby pretty good at getting out of gw's combo tricks.

General Strategies:

• Learn to avoid his kill moves, they will wreck you pretty early if you don't know what your doing. Fsmash is really fast and is an excellent surprise killer. If the kirby is good, they will know when to throw the aerial hammer in, which can also destroy gw pretty early.
• A general thing gw's should always be doing, but keep in mind more often when facing kirby that up b's will save you alot when getting combo'd.
• Keep your spacing tight against kirby, mistakes here will likely be pretty costly for you. Missing the spacing on your moves can get you 40% in combos or a fsmash for the kill.
• When off the stage, make sure you make the most out of edgeguarding him. I listed above the best way to do this, I think that that reverse key will really hurt kirby in this situation.
• When using the upair against kirby, keep in mind that the rock will probably come out to end the aerial pressure. This can be punished just by staying to the side of him and readying a fair for if he drops out mid air. If he lands just go for the grab.
• If kirby copies you, you can dair them immediately, they can't avoid it.
• Bucketing the up b isn't usually a bad idea, it has enough lag time after it if i remember correctly to avoid punishment. Sometimes kirbies use this alot when out ranged (good kirbies shouldn't against a gw, as they know you can bucket).
• Overall in this matchup you just need to keep your spacing tight and keep the pressure on by matching his range as often as possible. Learn to weave your kill moves in, possibly save your fair for kills, and you should be doing fine in this matchup.

Stage:

• I would probably just stick with a neutral, maybe even fd. Im sure that frigate orpheon would work well if you need a cp stage, or even halberd/delphino.
• DONT pick rainbow cruise! Other than that norfair probably wouldn't work that well either.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ice Climbers.

Just don't get ****in grabbed, and you will own.

Yeah, you kinda need to approach cause of Ice block camping, but don't worry, it doesn't do that much damage.

As you get close, many ICs will want to use Blizzard or alternated Smashes, or of course, grab you. Just bait and punish as neccessary. Bliazrd is the hardest to punish however.

Space B-airs really well, and eventually you will separate the ICs and have an opportunity to rack on damage and KO them.

6/4 G&W.

 

[Barge]

GnW is a really pain for me. Most of his attacks out prioritize ice climbers attacks. And you can easily not get grabbed by staying the air, keeping nana at a high % and away from popo is probably your best bet at winning this match. Space Bairs and Fairs, Punish accordingly, don't get grabbed. I say 7/3 GnW

 

[FrozenHobo]

Ice Climbers?

70:30 G&W

bair kills ice climbers, as well as most tilts/smashes so its really shouldn't be a hard matchup. like A2ZOMG said: "Just don't get ****in grabbed, and you will own."

 

[K 2]

Yeah, definitely don't get grabbed. I can CG G&W from 0-80% easily (and I'm not even that good at CG's)

Be SURE to space bairs. They IC's grab range sucks, so G&W has no excuse to get shield grabbed.

I think G&W's jab will repel the ice blocks. You can also bucket the blizzard, but its your weakest bucket, so it might not be worth the punishment.

 

[A2ZOMG]

70:30 G&W

Well, I dunno, my personal experience is that the matchup can't be that bad for them because if they do get a grab together, it doesn't take much to kill G&W.

And I mean he HAS to approach. B-air is punishable with Blizzard (Bucketable, but isn't that threatening except for the fact it outranges Blizzard), and if he screws up trying to escape from it, you could possibly get something big on him.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Well, I dunno, my personal experience is that the matchup can't be that bad for them because if they do get a grab together, it doesn't take much to kill G&W.

And I mean he HAS to approach. B-air is punishable with Blizzard (Bucketable, but isn't that threatening except for the fact it outranges Blizzard), and if he screws up trying to escape from it, you could possibly get something big on him.

60:40 then, but its still a huge advantage. a lot of his attacks can separate them and then he can get an easy kill. bair is a real killer against the ice climbers.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno, my main problem in this matchup is that I can't really punish the IC's SideB and Blizzard. But I guess the other way around, they really can't punish his B-air, and B-air is a bigger threat.

65/35 maybe? A G&W inexperienced in this matchup usually gets owned as far as I know.

 

[FrozenHobo]

i'd go with that. 65:35 sounds fine.

 

[omegablackmage]

ic's def perform better than ness. They do have solid kills when they do land grabs, better than ness's bthrow because it works at any percent. Blizzard has much more range than anything that ness has, squall is actually safe on block (even if you grab them they can just smash you) if they move away. Their recovery (actual up b) is probably harder to gimp, and even the squall gets some amazing height.

 

[Barge]

Squall is better recovery than up B if they're synced.

 

[omegablackmage]

ya im not surprised, it gets really amazing height, but does it have more upwards priority? i would probably use the up b if i was worried about getting interrupted.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Up-B recovery should be edgehogged or D-aired.

Squall hammer is really difficult to intercept on reaction when they're together. My guess is Chef would be the best bet for racking on damage to their recovery from there, but I never tried it.

A single IC's squall hammer recovery on the other hand is fairly easy to deal with.