-Fox Match-Up Topic- (Week #3: Sheik)

[Binx]

Sheik:

Onstage Strategies:

Fox’s two primary aerials are his SHFFL nair and dair. Both are going to be extremely useful in this matchup. His nair is a decent lead in to waveshines at extremely low percents. At mid percents, SHFFL nairs can be linked into up smashes, or a series of SHFFL nair chains. As for Fox’s SHFFL dair, they are the perfect lead-ins to waveshines at any percents, due to the dairs non existent knock back. You have multiple options when trying to hit Sheik with your aerials. You can use your fluent dash dance to make Sheik wiff out a dash attack or a spot dodge. Running in and wave dashing back can also bait Sheik, in which you can punish with your SHHFL aerials.

Grabs are also essential in this matchup. Up throw to uair combos Sheik from as low as 0% to as high as 100%. Sheik doesn’t actually have an easy to answer to dealing with opponents who are directly underneath her.


It’s extremely important you don’t rush in and blindly throw out SHFFL aerials, hoping you hit Sheik. Sheik’s fluent wavedash, combined with her natural running speed makes here extremely mobile like Fox, meaning she can quickly turn the tables on you. Her dash dash attack around 30% can set Fox up in the air for a forward tilt, to a fair combo. So it’s extremely important you DI away during the forward tilt, and up when hit by the fair.

Sheik’s grab game is also very strong. In the middle of the stage she will rely on her down throws to start up a tech chasing game. This is why it’s extremely important to not be predictable with your techs. Many beginning players forget they have so many options, yet they only use one or two of them. You can tech roll to the right, left, in place. For mindgames sake you could purposely miss your tech and lay there…and do an extremely late wake up attack, or you could simply stand up and grab. Again, switch it up.

Off stage Strategies:

Both Fox and Sheik have extremely gay methods to kill the other when off stage. Let’s talk about Fox’s choices first. One option is to simply grab the edge while Sheik is off the level, recovering, and stall. A few second before Sheik disappears in a cloud of smoke during her Up B, ROLL (don’t simply stand up) onto the stage. If you time this correctly, you would have forced Sheik to land on the stage. Simply walk/run up to her and Up smash for the kill. But it is important to note that Sheik can switch up the precise spot she lands on the stage with DI.

If you are feeling confident and you see the opening, you can drop from the edge, jump at Sheik and bair. Or you can simply drop from the edge (with invulnerable frames) shine spike Sheik, and Up B back. Also remember the forward tilts are an excellent punishing tool to use if Sheik jumps too high above the edge.

Finally, we can quickly go over Sheik’s edge guarding strategies. Sheik can use her needles to actually manipulate your recovery. She can simply shoot a few needles to knock you out of your Side B recovery, thus forcing you to use your Up B recovery. From there Sheik can proceed to deliver a lethal fair. This one reason why switching up your recovery extremely important. You must also be careful where you activate your Up B, for it too is vulnerable during the charging phase. You are safe from needles if you are directly underneath the stage, from there you can angle your Fire Fox accordingly. Sheik’s second (and final one I will cover) edge guarding tactic is her bair. This can eat right through any phase of your Fire Fox.

There we go, nice and readable now

 

[ArcNatural]

The only thing I would add Miggz is that you can just get up if you time it right and Sheik will still fall. Even if they upB right near the edge.

 

[RaynEX]

Nair is however good if you cross-up. Nair, and land behind Marth lowers his options significantly. Especially if he's CCing, or Shielding.

What is this, Street Fighter?

Good **** Miggz.

 

[Rubyiris]

What is this, Street Fighter?

Good **** Miggz.

Please tell me you aren't being serious.

 

[RaynEX]

The "cross-up" is a big thing in SF. It forces your opponent to block the other way, and usually kills their ability to reversal and avoid your pressure after you knock them down.

I think you misunderstood me though. I wasn't implying that it was a bad idea.

 

[Rubyiris]

Cross-Ups are a big thing in every fighter. Not just SF.

 

[Miggz]

Thanks for the props, everyone. I just view this to test myself and how much I have learned.

Falco match up coming Friday.

Come back, .Tero. I need you to update the title of the thread. But if you are busy, its all good. lol =P

 

[RaynEX]

Cross-Ups are a big thing in every fighter. Not just SF.

I don't see why you feel you always have to correct me. Just because I didn't include ALL FIGHTERS in my sentence didn't mean I was excluding them from that concept.

 

[Rubyiris]

Falco match-up is :

Aerial - Shine.

Grab - Usmash/Uair/Chaingrab depending on percentage, and stage position.

Edgeguard.

in a nut-shell.

I don't see why you feel you always have to correct me. Just because I didn't include ALL FIGHTERS in my sentence didn't mean I was excluding them from that concept.

Because you keep making it seem like you don't know what you're talking about, outside of melee.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

That or you nitpick eveyrone's post trying to find something you can criticize.

 

[Rubyiris]

That or you nitpick eveyrone's post trying to find something you can criticize.

Except not. You don't know me, so don't accuse me as such.

 

[RaynEX]

Because you keep making it seem like you don't know what you're talking about, outside of melee.

Really? Because I linked a concept you were talking about to another game, and didn't include all the ones YOU had in mind? Oops.

But I digress...

this thread deserves better than this.

Thats the last time I make an SF reference.

 

[MarkLoo]

lol let it go ruby.

 

[Rubyiris]

You saying "What is this, street fighter." led me to the impression that you had no idea what you were talking about. =\

You're supposed to be exceptionally good at this game, but when I see responses like that, it makes me doubt you.

 

[RaynEX]

It was a joke. lol

alright that was seriously my last post.

gahh I'm going to europe for two weeks this sundaaaay

 

[KirbyKaze]

hi raynex <3

 

[Rubyiris]

It was a joke. lol

alright that was seriously my last post.

gahh I'm going to europe for two weeks this sundaaaay

Since I don't know you, I couldn't pick up on that. =\

 

[Cactuar]

I just typed up a whole thing on the usefulness of just shielding at the edge vs Marth's recovery, but IE failed and I don't feel like retyping it.

To summarize:

There are vids of me in crew battles vs Marth players. I just throw them off and shield at the edge. It's the best strat.

 

[Rubyiris]

My shield never works properly. I roll toward the edge several times to make ****ed sure I'm at the tip, and tilt my light shield, which I used Z to pull up, and it still knocks me away from the edge, rather than onto it.

What am I doing wrong? Halp.

 

[Cactuar]

My shield never works properly. I roll toward the edge several times to make ****ed sure I'm at the tip, and tilt my light shield, which I used Z to pull up, and it still knocks me away from the edge, rather than onto it.

What am I doing wrong? Halp.

You are probably angling your shield down a bit. You should just tilt it fully left or right


I don't use the lightshield edgehog that often. I like just standing near the ledge and holding shield way more.

 

[4% APR]

yeah but catuar, no one else can pull off your strats correctly

 

[DtJ Jungle]

And then doing...what?

 

[Rubyiris]

I'd assume he's meaning:

Run to edge - Shield as they return - stay in shield when they're on the edge - react to what they do with an OOS option

 

[Tero.]

Or just shine OoS their up B like PC does all the time.

 

[Cactuar]

Staying in shield near the edge while an opponent has the edge is usually a bad idea.

I do mean shine OoS vs their upB, as well as vs anyone who gets nervous and doublejumps in for a fair on your shield. You would be surprised how many Marth players will try to jump and fair your shield after you backthrow or forward throw them off the stage.

 

[Zgetto]

gahh I'm going to europe for two weeks this sundaaaay

Where you gonna stay in europa

 

[RaynEX]

Slovenia, Switzerland, Italy, Germany

 

[joeplicate]

You're supposed to be exceptionally good at this game, but when I see responses like that, it makes me doubt you.

lol

one post is all it takes to negate several years of smash experience
lighten up ruby, lol

 

[Rubyiris]

He already cleared that up, lol.

It's the internet, and I don't know him personally, so I wasn't able to pick up on what he said as being a joke.

 

[Tero.]

Slovenia, Switzerland, Italy, Germany

You should come and visit Freiburg
We're like the most sexiest city in south germany :D

 

[Aldwyn McCloud]

Slovenia, Switzerland, Italy, Germany

Where and when exactly are you going to Italy? If possible, I'd be interested in playing you..

 

[Miggz]

Falco Match up Information.

Onstage Strategies:

Fox is an extremely fast and mobile character that dominates with his SHFFL aerials, followed by shines/waveshines. However, this approach is somewhat altered whenever he battles against his wing mate/partner, Falco. Unlike Fox, Falco has lasers which have the ability to stun upon bodily contact. Despite the fact that this stun lasts less then a second, its more then enough time for Falco to actually punish you. Falco's laser game is solely based on the player's firing "rhythm." Some Falco's will fire rapidly, others may fire slowly, or passively.

Let's quickly discuss a few ways Falco players use their lasers. An easy yet effective method Falco players use is their SH (short hop) lasers while moving forward. This approaches forces you to go on the defense. As I mentioned earlier, the stun of Falco's lasers is extremely brief. But that stun time creates openings for Falco's grab and SHFFL aerial combos. But there is a way Fox can get around Falco's lasers.

My personal favorite method is to use full jumps to get over the lasers and then come down with an aerial (dair, nair or even *uair* if you are feeling creative). If you hit a shield on your way down don't forget to shine after your aerial. Now I'm not trying to imply that Fox's SHHFL game is taken out of the picture. Once you close the gap between you and Falco use your SHFFL nair/dairs to shine to apply pressure. Keep in mind Falco falls down to the ground when shined by Fox. Hopefully someone will discuss the whole "thunder's combo," for I am not an expert at it.

Now for the grab game. At 0% I believe Fox can chain grab Falco at least three times in a row. Regardless, anytime you grab Falco in the middle of the stage, it should almost always be followed by up smash. If you use up throw at 0% and straight into an up smash, it is very likely you can get in another up smash, since Falco is a fast faller. At higher percent, up throw to a charged up smash will send Falco flying (no pun intended) to his death. If you grab Falco at the edge of the stage, you can up throw (I think Fox's back has to be facing the edge) jump up and shine spike Falco off the level. In this particular match up, in my opinion, Fox has superior grabbing options then Falco. So use this to your advantage.

The final onstage strategy I wish to cover is Falco's shine. Falco can use his SHFFL dair/nair and follow it up with his shine. Falco's shine send Fox straight upwards. After Falco shines, he can jump cancel it and hit you with a dair while in midair, fast fall to meet you (Fox) at the ground, shine, repeat. This combo is extremely deadly, yet with the proper DI...you can make it far less effective. When you get hit with Falco's nair/dair start to DI away BEFORE the shine comes out. When the shine does hit it will send you upwards at angle, making it a lot harder for Falco to combo you. Even though you are free from the shine/dair combo, the Falco could simply proceed to full jump and fire lasers. I'd rather take the lasers from a distance instead of being shine *****, but that's me.

Off stage Strategies:

Edge guarding is so extremely important in this match up, I cannot stress this enough. Falco, in my eyes, has inferior recovering when compared to Fox's. Falco's Up B is extremely short, although his Side B makes up for it. Its important that when you get Falco off the stage...he stays off! I was told by RaynEX a long time ago that having Fox's back to the stage is the best way to edge guard, and I couldn't agree more.

Simply put, Fox can literally cover all options this way. Fox's down smash is an extremely important edge guarding tool. It can knock Falco out of his Side B/phantasms, and Up B. If Falco angles his Up B above the level jump up and use your bair. Believe it or not, Fox's up tilt can knock Falco out of his side B as well, and from there finish him with a bair. If you prefer to have your face facing the recovering Falco then you can utilize forward tilts and jabs to knock Falco out of his side B. You can also grab the edge to apply edge pressure to Falco. If Falco is charging his Up B below the stage, simply drop down (with invulnerable frames) and shine spike him. So broken.

Finally, we have Falco's strategies against you! Falco can use his gay lasers to control your recovering. Its extremely important you be careful where you chose to use your Up B. Falco can snipe you out of the sky, forcing you downwards, below the stage. This is exactly what Falco wants, because he can then proceed to use his vicious dair for the kill. You must learn to tech this move. Simply press L/R as soon as you touch the edge. That's the timing I use anyway. Keep in mind Falco's down smash, up tilts, jabs, forward tilts, ect, work almost exactly the same as yours. So Falco can return the edge guarding gayness right back at you.


Probably won't be around tomorrow...cause its meh birthday! See ya Monday. XD

 

[TheGeneral]

Hey, keep up the good work guys! I'm trying to learn fox and this info will definitely go to good use. Nothing is really too obvious for me, lol. I play with that woman and her cooking equipment, so the vulpine is going to take some getting used to.

 

[Rubyiris]

Even with impeccable DI, Falco can still combo Fox 0 to 60%. It's absolutely guaranteed on Final Destination, due to platforms being absent, unless the Falco makes a mistake. The same can be said about platformed levels due to Shine - Waveland, which is used by the more technical players, Zhu, DSW, and Forward to be specific. If Fox fails to tech after the 60% mark, or in any way avoid being chased by Falco, Falco can follow up, and continue the combo to 90~130% depending on DI, and stage position, though most likely they'll continue to 90%, or if near the edge, Shine - Bair, and begin to edge guard.

Though with Falco's amazing combo prowes, it can still be argued that the matchup is even, and in Fox's favor on Final Destination. Without platforms to DI away from, Fox's grab game becomes impossible to escape if the Fox doesn't make a mistake. Fox can chaingrab Falco to 50% if they don't DI, or DI up, and even longer if they DI left or right. However if they chose not to DI, Fox can Utilt, and regrab. At this point, if they DI left or right, Fox can Nair - Usmash for the KO.

Fox's edgeguarding game is superior due to his moves knocking at a lower trajectory than Falco. Fox's dsmash and fsmash knock them further down than Falco does, which is terrible for Falco, since he can't use the more safe option of illusion.

Miggs already covered the basics of the match-up, but I figured I'd further elaborate on edge guarding, and the gayness of Fox's grab game.

 

[Tero.]

Sorry guys I was too lazy to write summaries that's why I didn't move on.
I'm starting Sheik discussion now (even though Miggz is just too fast ) I'll summarize Marth stuff later.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Miggz I'll take a stab at your thunders combo thing. The original thunders combo is shine wavedash jab reset into a uair into an upsmash. Of course this combo isnt practical in it's entirety, but up to the jab reset its good. If you fail at wd'ing i know you can dair reset as well. A lot of players are learning you can buffer a get up attack, roll, or SDI up after you get jab reset. To take care of the first two things, I usually wavedash jab, wavedash back then follow the roll/wait for the get up attack and regrab. if they sdi up the jab reset, react accordingly, I usually use upsmash. if they tech the shine you can follow up with dtilt to keep combos going, or even jab to grab. You really just have to react to your opponent after the waveshine/jab. Sometime i just let them lay there and roll or get up attack, ti usually meansa free grab (meaning i waveshine then just sort of dash around until they get up/get up attack)

I dunno my thoughts, im no fox expert by any means.


edit: if they are trying to buffer a get up attack they usually get up attack before you can jab, but you can react and just jump out of your wd and fj dair on them or something.

 

[Miggz]

Sorry guys I was too lazy to write summaries that's why I didn't move on.
I'm starting Sheik discussion now (even though Miggz is just too fast ) I'll summarize Marth stuff later.

LOL!

Sorry, .Tero. XD

 

[unknown522]

Even with impeccable DI, Falco can still combo Fox 0 to 60%. It's absolutely guaranteed on Final Destination, due to platforms being absent, unless the Falco makes a mistake. The same can be said about platformed levels due to Shine - Waveland, which is used by the more technical players, Zhu, DSW, and Forward to be specific. If Fox fails to tech after the 60% mark, or in any way avoid being chased by Falco, Falco can follow up, and continue the combo to 90~130% depending on DI, and stage position, though most likely they'll continue to 90%, or if near the edge, Shine - Bair, and begin to edge guard.

Though with Falco's amazing combo prowes, it can still be argued that the matchup is even, and in Fox's favor on Final Destination. Without platforms to DI away from, Fox's grab game becomes impossible to escape if the Fox doesn't make a mistake. Fox can chaingrab Falco to 50% if they don't DI, or DI up, and even longer if they DI left or right. However if they chose not to DI, Fox can Utilt, and regrab. At this point, if they DI left or right, Fox can Nair - Usmash for the KO.

Fox's edgeguarding game is superior due to his moves knocking at a lower trajectory than Falco. Fox's dsmash and fsmash knock them further down than Falco does, which is terrible for Falco, since he can't use the more safe option of illusion.

Miggs already covered the basics of the match-up, but I figured I'd further elaborate on edge guarding, and the gayness of Fox's grab game.

most of this was good, until you came up to:

However if they chose not to DI, Fox can Utilt, and regrab. At this point, if they DI left or right, Fox can Nair - Usmash for the KO.

You can tech chase I guess, this is not a combo.

Fox's edgeguarding game is superior due to his moves knocking at a lower trajectory than Falco. Fox's dsmash and fsmash knock them further down than Falco does, which is terrible for Falco, since he can't use the more safe option of illusion.

lasers. Nuff said.

either way though, both characters shouldn't ever make it back, unless they get close enough to walltech.

 

[Rubyiris]

most of this was good, until you came up to:


You can tech chase I guess, this is not a combo.

lasers. Nuff said.

either way though, both characters shouldn't ever make it back, unless they get close enough to walltech.

You're wrong about the grab thing. Utilt - grab at 50% followed by uthrow nair usmash is in no way a tech chase, since they never hit the ground. =\

Also; Even someone of my level can consistently return against someone of Forward's level. Fox has a lot of options available to him for returning to the stage. Watch players like Mango live until extremely high percentages against even players like M2K because he's constantly keeping the other player guessing, and DI-ing properly.

Fox and Falco can angle their Up+B in several different ways, shorten their Forward+B in several varying distances, stall their recovery with Down+B, etc. Any combination of DI, conserving your jump, stalling your descent, and shortening, and angling your recovery keeps them guessing. A good, smart player can return more often than not, unless you're gimped, which again is usually your own stupidity, or Marth being gay.

 

[Mokumo]

i feel like if they DI the nair down theyll be able to tech it before the up smash