-Fox Match-Up Topic- (Week #3: Sheik)

[Rubyiris]

I've never seen it not work unless the Fox messed up.

 

[KirbyKaze]

ignore post

 

[unknown522]

lol, nair -> up-smash doesn't connect. Maybe in WC, but when you DI away, you will hit the ground.

also, if you do link those 4 moves at 50%, it won't kill anyway.

I am also aware that your are not WC, but yeah.

 

[Rubyiris]

lol, nair -> up-smash doesn't connect. Maybe in WC, but when you DI away, you will hit the ground.

also, if you do link those 4 moves at 50%, it won't kill anyway.

I am also aware that your are not WC, but yeah.

Wrong, again. Fox obviously has the speed necessary to l-cancel, then chase their DI and up smash them.

I'm starting to wonder if you know as much about Fox as you might think you do.

 

[EWC]

Wrong, again. Fox obviously has the speed necessary to l-cancel, then chase their DI and up smash them.

I'm starting to wonder if you know as much about Fox as you might think you do.

The only way you can connect nair->upsmash at that percent is if they DI into it.

Also, quit being a self righteous prick and disrespecting people who are better and more knowledgeable than you.

 

[Miggz]

My Peach match up information should be up between tomorrow and Tuesday. XD

P.S.

Can you guys keep your squabble out of here, please? Many of us are trying to keep this thread as professional as possible. If I was a newcomer to this game I would get kind of annoyed sifting through the silly 2003 arguments to find the actual match up information. Just PM each other or argue/debate through wall posts, which you can delete when you are done. I would really appreciate this. ^^

 

[KirbyKaze]

Lolllll

U-throw Nair U-smash as a combo maybe, but it still won't KO

Just setup an edgeguard with your throw and gay him unless he's already at KO percent

I'm about 99.9% sure they can escape U-throw --> Nair --> Move in a variety of ways but I'll just ask RaynEX or something lolll

 

[Rubyiris]

Lolllll

U-throw Nair U-smash as a combo maybe, but it still won't KO

Just setup an edgeguard with your throw and gay him unless he's already at KO percent

I'm about 99.9% sure they can escape U-throw --> Nair --> Move in a variety of ways but I'll just ask RaynEX or something lolll

I wonder why I've seen Uthrow - utilt uthrow - nair - usmash soooooo many times if it's obvious escapable.

Do you even know what you're talking about? I wonder if anyone really knows what they're talking about anymore on these forums. It seems like hardly anyone knows anything anymore.

*Edit*

If he's better, and more knowledgeable, he sure as hell isn't proving it.

 

[unknown522]

Wrong, again. Fox obviously has the speed necessary to l-cancel, then chase their DI and up smash them.

I'm starting to wonder if you know as much about Fox as you might think you do.

lol. I told you what it is, you can find out yourself that is doesn't work for more than 1 reason.

My Peach match up information should be up between tomorrow and Tuesday. XD

P.S.

Can you guys keep your squabble out of here, please? Many of us are trying to keep this thread as professional as possible. If I was a newcomer to this game I would get kind of annoyed sifting through the silly 2003 arguments to find the actual match up information. Just PM each other or argue/debate through wall posts, which you can delete when you are done. I would really appreciate this. ^^

lol, there's nothing wrong with defending myself and correct false information.

Anyways, I will respect your request because you asked nicely.

 

[Rubyiris]

I'm sorry that I'm correct. x[

 

[Tee ay eye]

lol, nair -> up-smash doesn't connect. Maybe in WC, but when you DI away, you will hit the ground.

also, if you do link those 4 moves at 50%, it won't kill anyway.

I am also aware that your are not WC, but yeah.

I'm pretty sure Mew2king's 06 Fox vs spacie matches are generally on EC players.

I'm also pretty sure that Florida isn't on the West Coast.

 

[4% APR]

I wonder why I've seen Uthrow - utilt uthrow - nair - usmash soooooo many times if it's obvious escapable.

Do you even know what you're talking about? I wonder if anyone really knows what they're talking about anymore on these forums. It seems like hardly anyone knows anything anymore.

*Edit*

If he's better, and more knowledgeable, he sure as hell isn't proving it.

It might work a decent amount of the time, but wouldn't the utilt not hit if you di the uthrow?

that's probably not the inescapable part you're talking about though so nvm

 

[Tee ay eye]

It might work a decent amount of the time, but wouldn't the utilt not hit if you di the uthrow?

that's probably not the inescapable part you're talking about though so nvm

If they DI the u-throw, you can just continue chaingrabbing til 70-80(?)

 

[unknown522]

I see......

 

[cykofox]

truth: nair combos into upsmash if hit with the right part of nair regrdless of DI.

 

[Rubyiris]

I explained all of this in my original post, yet unknown continued to argue it. I explicitely mentioned that the utilt combo only worked if they didn't DI the uthrow at 50%. Also; if they DI up you can either space the utilt differently, or uair. of course, if they di left or right, you continue to cg them.

 

[unknown522]

MM, your fox v falco, FD only. See if it works.

Edit: I just tried it out with europhoria. It doesn't work with proper DI.

It works in training mode, when you don't DI.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Oh, interesting..

Hmm... I guess....

Even if it's escapable, it works on quite a few people (no, not just WC. Go watch some M2k Fox on FD or Colbol v OTRU. There's probably a lot more examples, but that's all I can think of offhand)

 

[EWC]

Even if they DI right, a lot of people seem to miss the tech on this, so you can still land upsmash. Or even better, shine reset and chase with another grab then throw to charged upsmash.

 

[idea]

kk posting

ruby, you're silly. even if it is inescapable, it won't kill at the 66 (after the u-tilt part) that you suggested. on that note, it is escapable. people just di into it a lot because being sent off the stage is less desirable than being u-smash comboed (especially because there's no true follow after the u-smash at that percent that will work). that's why it's seen so much. you might as well say that marth's u-throw fair dair works on sheik even though it doesn't lol. it happens, a lot, but not because it's not escapable.

on that note, if they're survival diing, it is much, much better to link nair to them being offstage into shine or more bairs or whatever to force them to recover and then ACTUALLY kill them.

 

[Rubyiris]

None of you are disproving me, however, and even mentioning OTHER options that can be used with the percentages I mentioned.

I'd stop arguing the case, since I'm right, and this is just counter productive.

*Edit*

Just because I'm knowledgeable about the game doesn't mean I'm even on par with the average player in the WC, let alone the other more active regions. I'm not going to MM anyone until I'm much better at the game.

 

[unknown522]

alright, I'm just gonna drop it. Use whatever works.

 

[Miggz]

Peach Match up Information

Onstage Strategies:

Peach is an absolute tank, who is more then capable of punishing your mistakes like no other. Before covering her fearsome options, we'll discuss Fox's battle strategies. Your SHFFL game really needs to be fluent when fighting Peach. You can't afford to miss too many l cancels. She arguably has the best crouch cancel in the game. This is why its important to be extremely careful when using Fox's SHFFL nairs at extremely low percents. Peach can easily crouch cancel your nairs and punish you with her down smash. Since Fox is a fast faller he will suffer almost all the hits to Peach's down smash, which can easily rack up 50+ damage. However, at mid to high percents your nair will lift Peach off the ground, meaning she can't crouch cancel into a downsmash. So a series of nair chains are ideal after you've dished out some major damage to Peach. If for whatever reason your SHFFL nair hits her shield, remember to shine/waveshine. If the waveshine connects use your up smash, for it can kill her around 75% and higher.

Lucky for Fox his SHFFL dair cannot be crouch canceled by anyone, and Peach is no exception. Due to the dairs non existent knock back it serves as the perfect lead ins for waveshines. Again, I recommend you end your waveshines with up smashes. Remember to use Fox's fluent dash dance and wavedash to space yourself. These tools, if used properly, can cause Peach to wiff out a down smash, for which you can run in and grab or up smash. Believe it or not, Fox's dash attack is actually quite useful (used sparingly, of course) around 45% and higher, cause it can set Peach up for a lethal up smash, or a full jump nair.

Your grab game is somewhat limited in this match up because landing a uair is extremely tricky, thanks to Peach's floaty weight. Of course if you grab Peach near the edge remember to back/forward throw her off.

Now let's quickly go over Peach's strategies against you, the Fox player. Peach can use her up throw and chain grab you over and over starting at 0%. I'm sure there is a percent you can shine yourself out, I'm not too sure on the number. If Peach lands a down smash she can follow your tech and may attempt to grab again. If you miss your tech, she can proceed to punish you with another down smash. If Peach gets you in the air she can proceed to juggle you with her uair, and/or send you flying off the stage with her bair.

Peach has an excellent projectile game. Despite how silly her turnips look, they do pack a punch. There is one particular turnip that has an insane amount of power with in it. If this turnip hits you prepare to take 30+ percent to the lips. This turnip has a stitched up mouth, giving it the name "stitched face." The chances of Peach of pulling this particular turnip isn't as high as her regular ones, but its possible nonetheless. Peach can also pull out a pink saber sword, and Mr. Nosey. These turnips play an important role in her edge guarding, which I will now discuss.

*Can somebody quickly go over Peach's float cancel for me? ^^;*

Off Stage Strategies:

Fox can do some extremely gay things to gimp Peach off stage. If Peach is floating back to the stage, you can do full jump laser spam to rack up damage. You can also stand on the edge, with your back facing the recovering Peach, and proceed to kill Peach with your bair. You can bait an air dodge by simply standing still on the edge and wait for an air dodge, or you could do empty short hops. If Peach air dodges...kill her with a up smash. Your down smash and forward tilt can also intercept Peach's attempts to float to the ledge.

If your grab the ledge remember to continue to renew your invulnerable frames. Do this simply by grab the edge, press down/away and jump back up and re-grab the stage. This will make you invulnerable to Peach's umbrella, allowing you to drop down and shine spike her. You can also let go of the edge and use your bair to intercept Peach's recovery.

Finally, there is Peach's edge guarding strategies. Its important that you do not become predictable with your recovery. Peach can easily "snipe" you out of both your side/up B recoveries. Along with being unpredictable with your recovery, remember to sweet spot them too. Some of Peach's basic edge guarding revolves around throwing turnips from the stage to control Fox's recovering angles. She can also charge up her down smash and time it just before you hit the edge. As Fox, its important to master teching for this very reason. Again, be careful where you use your Up B/Fire Fox. The charge up time gives Peach plenty of time to float out and knock you out of it it with her bair, nair, or even fair.

That's all I can think of for now. I don't actually play Peach players down here. Hopefully I will when I go to Peterborough, Ontario Canada in January. Ok so yeah, if anything else comes to mind I'll post it up. XD

 

[unknown522]

peach's float cancel gives her 4 frames of landing lag on any move (the lag becomes normal landing lag basically). There's only a few things that can punish an FC'd move out of shield:

- shine (I think fox's only, but not sure)
- bowser's up-b (by 1 frame)
- samus's up-b
- sheik's nair (I think it ties, but it has more priority.....have to look into that).
there's probably more moves, but I forget which.

If she FCs moves vs fox, you should just keep away from her, far enough from her dash attack. She is incredibly hard to punish and has more priority on most of her aerials. If you're too close, then she'll probably do (or more likely spam...seriously, look at a peach player's thumbs when the play. Try and count how many times the press the C-stick for 1) D-smash, or spam jab, then D-smash. CC is too risky against her. You also SDI out of her D-smash if you CC it. At 0%, you can DI out of the 3rd or 4th hit and will take about 30 damage. If you're trying to attack peach in this matchup, you have to space well, and try to quickly hit her while she is floating. Use nair, because if you shine her out of the air, she can DI downward, and D-smash / grab you.

A lot of peach players try to make a wall, by moving away and doing F-air, then quickly covering themself with D-smash / dash attack / jab. Don't contest her F-air, it will beat any move. Her nair without her spacing it will beat your moves outright. You can space Bair on it, or hit her with u-smash / u-tilt. The moves are likely to trade though.

Peach can also nair out of shield to break pressure / pillars. After the shine hits her shield, she can full jump nair you unless you are multi-shining, or moving away from her. The float out of shield is too slow lucky enough.

Up-throw -> U-air doesn't link as a legit combo and is easy to SDI due to it not being a combo. (she is probably the easiest character to SDI u-air with). She can also nair you, if you're not fast enough. Bair is probably a better option after an u-throw.

Miggz, dash attack is only good when peach is in the air, because of CC spam. It's my favorite move, but it's too punishable.

But yeah, peach's close range game is amazing, but in the matchups where she loses, it's because people can run away from her, and camp her. Her lack of speed if her main hindrance.

Her moves are amazing. They have high priority and the hitboxes are mostly longer than they look like they are.

 

[PHIRE]

When peach is at zero percent, there is not very much fox can do to her. attempting grab -> uthrow -> uair will cause you to eat an nair. nairing her will be crouch cancelled, dsmashed, 50% etc etc maybe more if the peach can predict your techs. In other words, to start, LASER LASER LASER. Lasers are so important in this match it is ridiculous. Also making your recovery not predictable plays a big part. A good peach will try to read your illusion and float -> bair it (if its not sweetspotted) or turnip it (if it is) or both. change up the recovery. I find on platformed stages firefoxing/illusioning onto the the platforms (especially the top ones on fod, dream land, etc) is very useful, because they usually read a low recovery. Hope this helps.

 

[Miggz]

Everything you said was pretty solid. Nice post. XD

At first I misinterpreted your post the wrong way when it came to the fire foxing idea, but I know what you mean now.

Keep the juicy Peach match up coming, people!

Thanks unknown522 for the float canceling information. It was really good.

 

[Cosmo!]

When peach is at zero percent, there is not very much fox can do to her. attempting grab -> uthrow -> uair will cause you to eat an nair. nairing her will be crouch cancelled, dsmashed, 50% etc etc maybe more if the peach can predict your techs. In other words, to start, LASER LASER LASER. Lasers are so important in this match it is ridiculous. Also making your recovery not predictable plays a big part. A good peach will try to read your illusion and float -> bair it (if its not sweetspotted) or turnip it (if it is) or both. change up the recovery. I find on platformed stages firefoxing/illusioning onto the the platforms (especially the top ones on fod, dream land, etc) is very useful, because they usually read a low recovery. Hope this helps.

dair cant be cc'd and leads to big damage

 

[4% APR]

what are the percents for peach's chaingrab on fox? Maybe i just suck against it

 

[unknown522]

dunno what it is.

0% - 90%. Maybe more.

 

[PHIRE]

Prob till about 90. and it usually results in death if done properly i.e. followed with a dash attack -> nair/fair or something similar. Thanks Miggz!


edit: btw can anyone cc a fox jab by reaction? or do they have to predict?

 

[Blitz Falcon]

The same can be said about platformed levels due to Shine - Waveland, which is used by the more technical players, Zhu, DSW, and Forward to be specific.

You mean any falco that doesn't suck*

Though with Falco's amazing combo prowes, it can still be argued that the matchup is even, and in Fox's favor on Final Destination. Without platforms to DI away from, Fox's grab game becomes impossible to escape if the Fox doesn't make a mistake. Fox can chaingrab Falco to 50% if they don't DI, or DI up, and even longer if they DI left or right. However if they chose not to DI, Fox can Utilt, and regrab. At this point, if they DI left or right, Fox can Nair - Usmash for the KO.

I have a question about this.

After the regrab, what would you be able do to kill from this? Uthrow Usmash Uair won't kill on FD with decent DI from 60...

On Peach: Spacing with lasers is amazing, but why not approach with a JC grab? Fthrow with fox = mindgame's+ Regrab or Uthrow backair instead of Uthrow Uair into her neutral.

OR

Circle dash, jump into her face, and shine that hoe. just for some extra damage.

 

[KirbyKaze]

But yeah, peach's close range game is amazing, but in the matchups where she loses, it's because people can run away from her, and camp her. Her lack of speed if her main hindrance.

Or they're Marth

Blitz, the trouble is that Peach mains start convulsing as soon as you start moving towards them and they become completely unpredictable with moves and start doing rapid-fire C-stick mashes in every direction (mostly down and forward), furious A presses, jumps and all sorts of craziness and produce ridiculous stupidity that they'll later call "spacing" and "mindgames" when you run into whatever random moves their mashes produce

 

[Rubyiris]

Watch M2k and hazzard games. They do the **** i explained.

Theres probably other foxes, but those are the two i remember off the top of my head.

 

[EWC]

You mean any falco that doesn't suck*

After the regrab, what would you be able do to kill from this? Uthrow Usmash Uair won't kill on FD with decent DI from 60...

Up throw to charged up smash will kill at about 80 I think. So at 55%, do throw to uptilt regrab, then throw to uptilt nair. Then if they survial DI you can regrab and they'll be at the right percent for up throw up smash to kill. If they DI the nair properly then you probably can't combo, but it's still easy to tech chase and land another grab.

Even if they do survive the charged upsmash, their DI will probably take them way off stage for an easy bair edgeguard. Of course you're probably better of just hitting them off earier in the combo and just getting it done with.


Edit against peach, spaced back airs are the second best weapon you have (after lasers lol).

Also helpful is uptilt/upsmash when they are floating just above the level of yor head.

If they do something laggy, go for drillshine->upthrow->bair for the maximum amount of safe damage, or drillshine upsmash for the kill. Otherwise just stay safe, and avoid commitig yourself to any action.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Ruby, if all of Hazzard's kills on Jman's Falco at SoVa weren't some permutation of U-throw Bair --> edgeguard, U-throw Bair/Nair tech chase U-smash (which means it didn't combo directly, and it was also quite a few percent higher than what you suggested), or simple U-throw U-smash/Uair KO, I'd understand what you mean, but they were so I don't...

>__>

Maybe we're not seeing this your way because we're missing some detail. Can you link us to a match where it happens? Jman is usually way too far for a direct follow when he's Baired or Naired after throw and I think there's a reason for this. Do we need weak Nair or something lol?

EWC, I'm pretty sure U-throw charge U-smash won't KO at 80. They need to be higher. Falco is a heavy mother****er.

 

[EWC]

Yeah you're probably right. I was being kinda optimistic there. But seriously why bother going for vertical kills when you can edgeguard falco so easily?

 

[KirbyKaze]

idk that's a good question

i don't see many people try to vertical ko falco unless he's conveniently at like 105+ or something

 

[4% APR]

dunno what it is.

0% - 90%. Maybe more.

yeah that's what i thought. I hate banning fd

 

[unknown522]

Prob till about 90. and it usually results in death if done properly i.e. followed with a dash attack -> nair/fair or something similar. Thanks Miggz!


edit: btw can anyone cc a fox jab by reaction? or do they have to predict?

lol, everyone just holds down now. Spacies CC all the time because they try to shine.

Or they're Marth

Blitz, the trouble is that Peach mains start convulsing as soon as you start moving towards them and they become completely unpredictable with moves and start doing rapid-fire C-stick mashes in every direction (mostly down and forward), furious A presses, jumps and all sorts of craziness and produce ridiculous stupidity that they'll later call "spacing" and "mindgames" when you run into whatever random moves their mashes produce

lol, yeah.

yeah that's what i thought. I hate banning fd

I ban FD or Mute city vs peach. I don't mind FOD at all. Mute city, I can go falco / puff / doc / stay fox.

 

[Miggz]

Thanks Miggz!

No problem, friend. ^^;