RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
I'm fairly certain he can re-grab from 0. He can't do any of his aerials, thats for sure.
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-Fox Match-Up Topic- (Week #3: Sheik)
- Thread starter Tero.
- Start date
unknown522
Some guy
I thought he could too. Not sure.
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
late to the party, but:
bair leads into chasing regardless.
fox shouldn't be getting grabbed very much at all vs. DK.
only true of DK is up-airing. some DK's (m2k...) prefer to just cg to 35% -> u-airx1or2 depending on DI -> punch/stuff
bair leads into chasing regardless.
fox shouldn't be getting grabbed very much at all vs. DK.
Miggz
Pancake Sandwiches
Sorry for no recent match updates. I'll be sure to have one up in the next few days. XD
unknown522
Some guy
cool, keep it up
N64
Smash Champion
simple solution:
First grab on spacies at 0 with pika, you fthrow dash forward regrab, then start the uthrows. untechable as fox auto lands from it. I think fox technically has enough time to shine before pika can grab, but I haven't had a fox do that to me yet (cause they don't know about it i guess).
Or you can try to techchase uthrow, which as has been said uuuusually isn't too bad.
First grab on spacies at 0 with pika, you fthrow dash forward regrab, then start the uthrows. untechable as fox auto lands from it. I think fox technically has enough time to shine before pika can grab, but I haven't had a fox do that to me yet (cause they don't know about it i guess).
Or you can try to techchase uthrow, which as has been said uuuusually isn't too bad.
Miggz
Pancake Sandwiches
I think its time we breathed a little life back into this match up topic. Ok so basically we'll be discussing the Jigglypuff V.S. Fox match up. I don't fight many Puffs but I think I have a general idea of the match goes. As always, I encourage others to put in their input regarding this match up, regardless if its been said before. Oh and of course if I make any mistakes, by all means correct me. ^^
Onstage Strategies:
Ok so I'll first cover Fox's on stage strategies. Fox clearly has the speed advantage on the ground. However, Jiggz spend majority of her time in the air. This makes Fox's full jump laser spam ideal. Whenever there is a massive gap between you an Puff, start to laser spam. Even if you are the one who knocks Puff away, it couldn't hurt to full jump laser. You'd be surprised how much damage this tactic alone racks up. Speaking of damage, Puff dies at lower percents due to her lightness. A Puff who is above 50% is in the danger zone, remember that.
Fox's fluent dash dance can be used to create a opening (after a miss pound attack) for a full jump nair. When dashing dancing its important you stay away from Puff's range, especially for her pound attack. When her pound connects, it send you up and behind her. Your bread an butter up throw to uairs are extremely important in this match. Just keep in mind that the actual up throw will happen really quickly because of Puff's light weight. So with this in mind, be prepared to quickly follow up with uairs.
Its also important you don't get grabbed in this match, especially at 0%. A good Jigglypuff player will use up throw to rest for a early kill. Many factors come into play when one considers the survial rate for Fox. The player must consider the size of the stage, DI, and where on the stage the rest occurs. Just like all hard hitting moves (like Falcon's knee, Marth's forward smash, DK punch) it would be a good idea to DI up to increase your chances for surviving. I'm sure other players will touch up more on DI-ing the rest. Now lucky for you, rest requires alot of precision to land. Should her rest miss, don't up smash just yet. Instead, use standing lasers (pressing B rapidly) to rack up some damage while Puff sleeps, and then charage up an up smash just as she begins to wake up. More often then not, this will claim her stock. Finally, another solid finisher with Fox is his up smash. Fox's up smash can kill Jiggz around 60% an higher.
The shine cannot combo Jiggz at all. Fox's shine knocks Puff to the ground. Nonetheless, its still important you shine after your aerials (you'll most likely be using full jump aerials then SHFFLs in this particular match up) especially if you land on her shield. Spacing is extremely important as well, especially when using bair. The last thing you need is to get shield grabbed.
Ok now I will quickly cover Jigglypuff's onstage strategies. As I mentioned earlier up throw to rest is death. Even if Fox survives the rest, chances are Jigglypuff will be awake by the time you touch down on the stage. Puff also has a very unique way of maneuvering while in the air, kind of like an aerial dash dance if you will. Puff has the ability to weave in an out of your attack range, which she uses to create openings. This brings me to one of Puff's infamous moves known as the "wall of pain" (WOP). This consists of using B-air with jumps while moving off the stage, utilizing Jigglypuff's superior air maneuverability and high priority to always land a hit with each spin kick. [quoted from smash wiki] This technique can literally carry you off the stage, negating recovering attempts, and result in your death.
Off stage strategies:
Me personally, I find puff somewhat scary to edge guard. I wouldn't recommend jumping out and using your nair for example to hit Puff. From what I remember, Puff has up to 5 mid air jumps, pound, and one air dodge in her arsenal. This makes jumping out an attacking her a bit risky. If you start standing on the stage, you can intercept Puff with a bair, forward tilt, and down smashes (assuming she is aiming for a sweet spot). If you are hanging on the edge, a ledge hop bair will be a useful tactic to use. Also remember about your full jump lasers. It doesn't make sense simply standing there and silently wait for her to come back. Start racking up damage while Puff takes forever and a week to come back to the stage. =P
Finally, we have Puff's edge guarding strategies. Puff ***** Fox's recoveries. This doesn't mean its impossible, but it does require a lot of precision on your part. Be careful where you activate your up B. FireFox takes a long time to charge, and it gives Puff a lot of time to hit you out of the sky with her fair, bair, or nair. The worst part is she can follow you as you fall below the level, and still have a few jumps and a pound to make it back to the stage. You are a bit safer from Puff's WOP when recovering from directly underneath the stage. But she still can time a forward/down smash or a dash attack to intercept a sweet spot recovery.
Onstage Strategies:
Ok so I'll first cover Fox's on stage strategies. Fox clearly has the speed advantage on the ground. However, Jiggz spend majority of her time in the air. This makes Fox's full jump laser spam ideal. Whenever there is a massive gap between you an Puff, start to laser spam. Even if you are the one who knocks Puff away, it couldn't hurt to full jump laser. You'd be surprised how much damage this tactic alone racks up. Speaking of damage, Puff dies at lower percents due to her lightness. A Puff who is above 50% is in the danger zone, remember that.
Fox's fluent dash dance can be used to create a opening (after a miss pound attack) for a full jump nair. When dashing dancing its important you stay away from Puff's range, especially for her pound attack. When her pound connects, it send you up and behind her. Your bread an butter up throw to uairs are extremely important in this match. Just keep in mind that the actual up throw will happen really quickly because of Puff's light weight. So with this in mind, be prepared to quickly follow up with uairs.
Its also important you don't get grabbed in this match, especially at 0%. A good Jigglypuff player will use up throw to rest for a early kill. Many factors come into play when one considers the survial rate for Fox. The player must consider the size of the stage, DI, and where on the stage the rest occurs. Just like all hard hitting moves (like Falcon's knee, Marth's forward smash, DK punch) it would be a good idea to DI up to increase your chances for surviving. I'm sure other players will touch up more on DI-ing the rest. Now lucky for you, rest requires alot of precision to land. Should her rest miss, don't up smash just yet. Instead, use standing lasers (pressing B rapidly) to rack up some damage while Puff sleeps, and then charage up an up smash just as she begins to wake up. More often then not, this will claim her stock. Finally, another solid finisher with Fox is his up smash. Fox's up smash can kill Jiggz around 60% an higher.
The shine cannot combo Jiggz at all. Fox's shine knocks Puff to the ground. Nonetheless, its still important you shine after your aerials (you'll most likely be using full jump aerials then SHFFLs in this particular match up) especially if you land on her shield. Spacing is extremely important as well, especially when using bair. The last thing you need is to get shield grabbed.
Ok now I will quickly cover Jigglypuff's onstage strategies. As I mentioned earlier up throw to rest is death. Even if Fox survives the rest, chances are Jigglypuff will be awake by the time you touch down on the stage. Puff also has a very unique way of maneuvering while in the air, kind of like an aerial dash dance if you will. Puff has the ability to weave in an out of your attack range, which she uses to create openings. This brings me to one of Puff's infamous moves known as the "wall of pain" (WOP). This consists of using B-air with jumps while moving off the stage, utilizing Jigglypuff's superior air maneuverability and high priority to always land a hit with each spin kick. [quoted from smash wiki] This technique can literally carry you off the stage, negating recovering attempts, and result in your death.
Off stage strategies:
Me personally, I find puff somewhat scary to edge guard. I wouldn't recommend jumping out and using your nair for example to hit Puff. From what I remember, Puff has up to 5 mid air jumps, pound, and one air dodge in her arsenal. This makes jumping out an attacking her a bit risky. If you start standing on the stage, you can intercept Puff with a bair, forward tilt, and down smashes (assuming she is aiming for a sweet spot). If you are hanging on the edge, a ledge hop bair will be a useful tactic to use. Also remember about your full jump lasers. It doesn't make sense simply standing there and silently wait for her to come back. Start racking up damage while Puff takes forever and a week to come back to the stage. =P
Finally, we have Puff's edge guarding strategies. Puff ***** Fox's recoveries. This doesn't mean its impossible, but it does require a lot of precision on your part. Be careful where you activate your up B. FireFox takes a long time to charge, and it gives Puff a lot of time to hit you out of the sky with her fair, bair, or nair. The worst part is she can follow you as you fall below the level, and still have a few jumps and a pound to make it back to the stage. You are a bit safer from Puff's WOP when recovering from directly underneath the stage. But she still can time a forward/down smash or a dash attack to intercept a sweet spot recovery.
Da Shuffla
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2008
- Messages
- 1,810
Thank you, Miggz. I was hoping this thread wouldn't be abandoned. Keep it going!
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
You're on the money about spacing bair and not wanting to get grabbed. Those are two of the more important points in the match-up.
Smash d.i. up+towards (up/left), as you near the top of the screen, slide the control stick past the left vertex and circle it to the down+towards (down/left) position. This will help you survive vertical kill rests. If you are over 50% and get rested, don't bother trying to d.i. it up in the slightest. If you die off the top (which you certainly will at over 50%), Jigglypuff has enough time to wake up before you regenerate and punish her. With this in mind, sometimes it is better to intentionally d.i. towards the side of the level you are closest to, and hasten your death. Why delay the inevitable? Or, more appropriately, why let Jiggs wake up when you can kick her in the face and make her die?
Fox's shine is plenty useful in this match-up. If you land one and she falls down, thats a free techchase - and its up to you to take that advantage and put it to use. Every shine knockdown is a potential uthrow uair. Thats a BIG chance for damage or a stock. You won't get many of those opportunities with an extremely good/defensive/safe Jigglypuff. Aerial->shine->techchase usmash also works.
If you get an opening after a whiffed Pound, usmash if you think it will kill. Even if it doesn't, she's above you, and you're now in an advantageous position. You can trail her below and try to clip her with uair. Her Bair, Fair, and Nair become a drastically reduced threat once she begins falling helplessly towards you from above. Her Dair is terrible, by the way.
Rest hits you from the left side and sends you flying to the right:Miggz said:
Smash d.i. up+towards (up/left), as you near the top of the screen, slide the control stick past the left vertex and circle it to the down+towards (down/left) position. This will help you survive vertical kill rests. If you are over 50% and get rested, don't bother trying to d.i. it up in the slightest. If you die off the top (which you certainly will at over 50%), Jigglypuff has enough time to wake up before you regenerate and punish her. With this in mind, sometimes it is better to intentionally d.i. towards the side of the level you are closest to, and hasten your death. Why delay the inevitable? Or, more appropriately, why let Jiggs wake up when you can kick her in the face and make her die?
lolMiggz said:
Besides using shine to avoid being shield grabbed:Miggz said:
Fox's shine is plenty useful in this match-up. If you land one and she falls down, thats a free techchase - and its up to you to take that advantage and put it to use. Every shine knockdown is a potential uthrow uair. Thats a BIG chance for damage or a stock. You won't get many of those opportunities with an extremely good/defensive/safe Jigglypuff. Aerial->shine->techchase usmash also works.
unknown522
Some guy
will give input later.
- try comboing weak n-air -> up-smash for kill.
Edit:
- If you're over 20% unless it's dreamland or battlefield, DI the rest away, so you can punish on the next stock. You have to DI the throw otherwise your probably screwed.
- you can get gimped anywhere on the stage by puff. Rest kills at low percents and they can gimp you with back-throw -> [insert move]. Most puffs camp the edge and try to gimp you like that, so if they stall the edge, then don't go to them. Shoot lasers until they come to you.
There are a lot of tourney matches (even genesis) where puffs like hungrybox / mango / darc / etc move away to the ledge and fox / falco / falcon players stop playing defensive and try to pressure puff at the edge. They then get back-throw gayed and lose the lead. I recently saw soft vs lamchops losers finals at some tourney and chops lost leads / matches because of this same thing.
- Pound is useless. They will always get punished from it, unless it's mid-combo.
- Use up-smash to beat out moves for kills (trades with her b-air and beats out the others if spaced decently), if they actually approach you in the air.
- This mostly has been covered but, if puff is shielding, do n-air -> shine to pressure. Alternatively, you can space b-air on the shield so you don't get grabbed, or you can drill through her and then grab her from behind. You have less chance to get punished if you're behind her. You can also spam u-tilt behind her on her shield, to try and force a roll, or catch her when she tries to do something out of shield.
- Don't randomly throw out up-smash on the ground. They can rest you out of shield. They can also CC->rest your dash attack, or do it out of shield.
- Raynex already covered the shine into tech chase thing. Puff's get up rolls / attack are very crappy and easy to follow. You can easily grab / u-smash / tilt her on tech chases. Because jiggs is so light, she can DI off the stage though. You can possibly shine her over and over again if she tries to recover head on when she's off the stage though, but good Jiggs players won't get gimped that easily.
- Up-tilt is amazing in the matchup. You can combo her at low-mid percents into u-air. You can kill her around 90-100% with it as well, if you feel up-smash is too slow or something.
- Try as hard as you can to avoid recovering low against puff. It gives her time to set up her edgeguarding by taking the ledge, then hitting you at any point. She can also just jump at you and hit you with a move. Even if you survive the hit, she can just follow you down because fox's recoveries are a bit slow at the start of them. Shortening illusion is really good once in a while, but don't spam it.
- try comboing weak n-air -> up-smash for kill.
Edit:
- If you're over 20% unless it's dreamland or battlefield, DI the rest away, so you can punish on the next stock. You have to DI the throw otherwise your probably screwed.
- you can get gimped anywhere on the stage by puff. Rest kills at low percents and they can gimp you with back-throw -> [insert move]. Most puffs camp the edge and try to gimp you like that, so if they stall the edge, then don't go to them. Shoot lasers until they come to you.
There are a lot of tourney matches (even genesis) where puffs like hungrybox / mango / darc / etc move away to the ledge and fox / falco / falcon players stop playing defensive and try to pressure puff at the edge. They then get back-throw gayed and lose the lead. I recently saw soft vs lamchops losers finals at some tourney and chops lost leads / matches because of this same thing.
- Pound is useless. They will always get punished from it, unless it's mid-combo.
- Use up-smash to beat out moves for kills (trades with her b-air and beats out the others if spaced decently), if they actually approach you in the air.
- This mostly has been covered but, if puff is shielding, do n-air -> shine to pressure. Alternatively, you can space b-air on the shield so you don't get grabbed, or you can drill through her and then grab her from behind. You have less chance to get punished if you're behind her. You can also spam u-tilt behind her on her shield, to try and force a roll, or catch her when she tries to do something out of shield.
- Don't randomly throw out up-smash on the ground. They can rest you out of shield. They can also CC->rest your dash attack, or do it out of shield.
- Raynex already covered the shine into tech chase thing. Puff's get up rolls / attack are very crappy and easy to follow. You can easily grab / u-smash / tilt her on tech chases. Because jiggs is so light, she can DI off the stage though. You can possibly shine her over and over again if she tries to recover head on when she's off the stage though, but good Jiggs players won't get gimped that easily.
- Up-tilt is amazing in the matchup. You can combo her at low-mid percents into u-air. You can kill her around 90-100% with it as well, if you feel up-smash is too slow or something.
- Try as hard as you can to avoid recovering low against puff. It gives her time to set up her edgeguarding by taking the ledge, then hitting you at any point. She can also just jump at you and hit you with a move. Even if you survive the hit, she can just follow you down because fox's recoveries are a bit slow at the start of them. Shortening illusion is really good once in a while, but don't spam it.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
Random note:
Drill -> utilt at high % can get a free kill
Drill -> utilt at high % can get a free kill
Miggz
Pancake Sandwiches
Ah yes that does make more sense. Up smash simply owns Jiggz. I suppose even Fox's up tilt is another useful tool in this scenario. Thanks for that. ^^RaynEX said:
I'm actually really glad you brought this up. I remember a while ago you explained to me about this method of di (or similar to it) but I couldn't fully recall what it was you said. Now I understand what you mean, now that I remember. Haha. But what you said is true, though. It would make sense to hasten your death after rest, return to the stage, an up smash her just before she wakes up. Yeah, I gotcha. lolRaynEX said:
I had a feeling someone was going to like that one. =PRaynEX said:
Ah duh Miguel! I won't lie, I totally overlooked the idea of tech chasing Jiggz. But it is indeed possible. I'm going to apply this method well when I meet a good Jiggz player.RaynEX said:
Thanks for the corrections, friend. I really appreciate it.
Oh and you too, Unknown522. You posted a lot of juicy information.
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