-Fox Match-Up Topic- (Week #3: Sheik)

[Tero.]

Well, since I got annoyed by like thousand people asking about the Marth/Sheik/Falco/etc. matchup in the -Fox Advice/Questions Topic- and because the Brawl character boards all have topics like this (and we all know that Melee is better ) I thought we might start one here, too.

We could just use this topic for matchup requests or we could do it like the Brawl character boards and discuss one matchup each week, write a summary or at least post a link to the page where discussion for character X starts.

And if people come asking for a specific matchup we could just redirect them here and save us some time.

So what do you guys think?

Edit:

Top

1. Fox
2. Marth
3. Sheik
4. Falco

High:

5. Peach
6-7. Captain Falcon
6-7. Jigglypuff
8. Ice Climbers

Middle:

9. Samus
10. Dr. Mario
11. Ganondorf
12. Luigi
13. Donkey Kong
14. Mario

Low:

15. Link
16. Pikachu
17. Young Link
18. Roy
19. Zelda
20. Mr. Game & Watch

Bottom

21. Ness
22. Yoshi
23. Bowser
24. Mewtwo
25. Kirby
26. Pichu

 

[Mogwai]

Fox matchups in a nutshell:

Fox < Marf on FD
Fox = Fox
Fox = Falco
Fox > Everyone else (including Marf on other stages)

 

[Miggz]

I really like the idea of discussing one match up a week.

Perhaps we should use the official tier list as a guide as to which character we discuss first.

Edit: How come people don't read CunningKitsune's Fox guide? That has a big bulk of all of Fox's match ups. ^^;

 

[halcyon.days]

I thought Falco had a very SLIGHT advantage against Fox, unless it was on FD.

 

[cykofox]

I thought Falco had a very SLIGHT advantage against Fox, unless it was on FD.

only if you agree with an outdated consensus.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

vs Sheik - Shine>uthrow>uair OR Shine
vs Marth - Shine>uthrow>uair OR Shine
vs Peach - Shine x n>uthrow>uair OR Shine/Shine x n
vs Link - Don't get up b'd. Shine.

etc

There. Saved you months of discussion.

 

[Keblerelf]

Edit: How come people don't read CunningKitsune's Fox guide? That has a big bulk of all of Fox's match ups. ^^;

the guides are pretty old though =/

 

[Stratford]

Yea a lot of that still applies, but some aspects are outdated. This thread is a good idea.

 

[Rubyiris]

I personally believe the Fox/Falco match up to be even, or slightly in Fox's favor. Sure, Falco has inescapable 60% combos, but Fox is pretty much almost completely unaffected by Falcos' laser game. Fox gets easy gimps, and edge guards against him, and can out pressure Falco, having an advantage over Falco in every aspect of his game.

The only advantages Falco holds over Fox are trivial, and often not worth mention when it comes down to the match up as a whole, but at the same time COMPLETELY change how each character plays against each other character.

As Falco, against Fox, I often find myself playing Falco EXACTLY as I would if I were playing Fox, and in that aspect, I nearly ALWAYS go Fox in spacie games. In the end, it really comes down to individual player skill, and more importantly, each players comfortability with their character, and their experience with the other players character, and of course, insight on their play style.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

I thought Falco had a very SLIGHT advantage against Fox, unless it was on FD.

What do YOU think? Believe in your own opinion, not what other people say. As for Fox vs Falco, I think they both **** each other about equally hard, but it's easier for Fox to **** and get hits, so personally I think he has a slight advantage in the matchup. Although I think it depends on how comfortable the players are with the match up far more than anything else. It's too close to say one way or another.

 

[Tero.]

I really like the idea of discussing one match up a week.

Perhaps we should use the official tier list as a guide as to which character we discuss first.

Sounds great.
I've edited the first post with the tier list and we can start discussion for Fox now and I'm going to update good posts and stuff into the first post.

So let's do this: Fox discussion go

 

[KirbyKaze]

Let's start with the Fox ditto.

 

[Mogwai]

fox clearly has the advantage. he has uthrow, it's so unfair.

 

[Bets]

you can approach with a running shine and when the shine hits, its a free thunders combo.

 

[Mogwai]

with running shine you can just JC usmash but he still has uthrow, so it's still in Fox's favor.

 

[joeplicate]

fox is fox's hardest matchup

 

[Rubyiris]

Fox is Fox's easiest matchup.

 

[FastFox]

If there aren't any quality posts in this thread, it'll be closed, as the Fox Advice thread pretty much covered any matchup questions.

Fox vs. Fox is pretty much the better player's game. Both players have the advantage of shine spikes, u-throw -> u-air/u-smash, etc, thunder's combo, and chain grabbing. It's also a lot of "who-used-what-when", as is any match.

 

[Miggz]

In regards to edge guarding Fox with Fox...down smash, forward tilts, up tilts (preferably with back facing the edge) and jabs are all capable of knocking Fox out of his illusion/side B. If you are standing on the stage and the Fox is using Up B, you have a lot of options. You can quickly grab the edge, drop down and shine spike while the Fox is charging their Up B. Some Foxes use ledge hop dair (with invulnerable frames) to hit Fox out of his Up B, despite it not being a fatal hit. But Fox's dair is surprisingly still pretty useful in knocking the Fox below the stage for more options. Dropping from the edge, you can also use Bair to hit Fox out of his Up B.

To get even more fancy...Fox can drop from the ledge, shine, turn around while in shine, jump cancel shine to nair. I find this technique to be extremely useful on multiple characters who are recovering. Its also useful if for some reason you miss shine spiking Fox's Up B...then the shine turn around nair is a backup option.

I'll post some more information regarding the onstage strategies.

 

[Mogwai]

you forgot about hitting with weak dash attack -> drop down and shine them... it's so cheesy, but it works a lot vs. spacies.

 

[Stratford]

When edgehogging, firefox ledgestall is useful to renew invinicibility frames or look cool.

 

[Tero.]

Fox versus Fox comes down to who is smarter (obviously because characters are identical).

That Match-up (like almost every high/top tier MU) is just about getting a grab then doing as much damage as possible and either kill (usmash/uair as the most common finishers) or get them offstage and set up for edgeguarding (because of the fact that Fox is a fast faller much more likely) which will then result into taking the stock.

To get the grab you will have to punish any mistake your opponent is doing. I would mostly determine approaches as the major source of getting grabs. This can either be you approaching or your opponent approaching and you countering his approach to grab.

If you approach you'll either trick your opponent and get that grab or you'll fail and your opponent grabs and therefore takes the stock (and vince versa of course).

So basically watch your approaches, punish their mistakes and edgeguard flawless and you'll be fine.

 

[Rubyiris]

In the Fox ditto, it's often a good idea to attack second. Camp dash dance, space nairs in nonpunishable ways, camp platforms, running shield, and crouch canceling are all effective ways of baiting out their attacks. At lower %, it's often a good strategy to trade blows, or to tank their **** and grab them.

It mostly comes down to whoever is the better player, but a lesser skilled player can take a set from a better player by playing gay, too.

 

[Timcanpy]

about fox ditto, if you are chain grabbing another fox, at what percentage he can shine you?

 

[Rubyiris]

about fox ditto, if you are chain grabbing another fox, at what percentage he can shine you?

Not until higher percentages, like 60-ish. By then you can nair - usmash for KO. If they DI up, uair, or charge Usmash.

 

[FastFox]

Lol, you can attack second if you don't end up getting 0-80%'d or 0-death'd with the other player's first attack, which is more likely than not in Fox dittos, especially for someone who can't properly tech u-smashes. Not only that, but if the combo ends up being broken for whatever reason and you get tech-chased, you're either going to be grabbed or u-smashed, so either way the first attack can make you or break you.

drillshine -> thunder's -> another u-smash -> grab -> u-throw -> b-air -> edgegaurd.

 

[RaynEX]

Fox matchups in a nutshell:

Fox < Marf on FD
Fox = Fox
Fox = Falco
Fox > Everyone else (including Marf on other stages)

I think Falco > Fox. Lasers hinder Fox's movement, Ruby. They might not affect him as much as they affect other characters, but that hindrance is still an issue. He can out turtle you and has more priority on his bair and dair. He'll stuff out the majority of moves you go for up close. Not to mention if you get hit by the shine against a good Falco you lose your stock. Platforms don't change this. In fact, it augments the ****. He can spam dair while on a platform and stop you from coming up. He can CC your jabs and nairs and go into death combos. Fox can do the same, but A: it isn't nearly as effective, and B: Falco players won't be approaching with nair anyways. Dair all dai baby.

The things I think Fox has over Falco in the match-up:

-Grab is better. Leads to everything.

-Edge-guarding with shine is stupid and gets you free kills.

-Has higher mobility, can cover stages quickly and escape to top platforms and play a good hit&run game.

-Can do the "fox pillar" on FD to MAYBE have a chance at beating Falco there. (Fox pillar = Fox CG)

-Has a bushy tail.

Not until higher percentages, like 60-ish. By then you can nair - usmash for KO. If they DI up, uair, or charge Usmash.

Actually:

CG Fox v Fox/Falco

-Works until 80% if your opponent continues to d.i. left/right

-Works until 55% if your opponent doesn't d.i. at/around that percent. Sometimes you can shine or jump out as early as 50%.

-Foxes who know what they are doing will continue the CG if their opponent doesn't know to NOT d.i. If they see their opponent neutral d.i.ing and trying to escape, they should utilt/bair/usmash instead of trying to re-grab.

-Fox/Falcos who know what they are doing will stop d.i.ing at 50 and try to mash down+b or jump out.

Other information:

-Fox/Falcos who know what they are doing will stop d.i.ing chaingrabs because d.i.ing chaingrabs usually makes things worse. Focus on d.i.ing the hits after the throws, not the throws themselves. Especially if they are inescapable throw chains (i.e.: Marth, Fox, DK). This is in relation to FD only, though. If you are on a stage with platforms, d.i.ing towards them after being thrown is obviously in your best interest.

-If you neutral d.i. CGs, it might sometimes be easier to react and smash d.i. nairs/usmashes/utilts away and possibly escape a combo. If you are already d.i.ing a CG, you'll most likely survival d.i. and forget to hold away and get *****. It happens to everyone.



BTW, good thread .Tero

 

[Lovage]

^^^ good info on CG's
if they neutral DI after 50-60 or so, i think the best option is utilt to bair.
also

raynex read my thread lol
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=231711

 

[joeplicate]

at first, I used to think that the trick to fox dittos was who's putting pressure on who at the right times

but now that I think about it, it's not really like vs marth in that aspect
fox dittos are more "who makes the best decisions consistently" and who can follow up on them the best with gay fox combos

 

[`DNS`]

-Has a bushy tail.

This makes all the difference.

It speeds him up, makes his attacks stronger, come out faster, and without it Fox would be mid-low tier.

 

[Stos]

Raynex posting:

bushy tail is so ****. Smartest thing they did was letting him use it as his dtilt.

 

[Stos]

^wtf How Are You On My Account!
LOLOL

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Bush >>>> feathers.

 

[Rubyiris]

Lol, you can attack second if you don't end up getting 0-80%'d or 0-death'd with the other player's first attack, which is more likely than not in Fox dittos, especially for someone who can't properly tech u-smashes. Not only that, but if the combo ends up being broken for whatever reason and you get tech-chased, you're either going to be grabbed or u-smashed, so either way the first attack can make you or break you.

drillshine -> thunder's -> another u-smash -> grab -> u-throw -> b-air -> edgegaurd.

Completely wrong. You wait out their aerial, or grab, whilst dd camping, or camping a platform, promtly move out of the way, and intercept with your own aerial. Against Nair, at lower percentages, you can CC, and counter without worry.

 

[Tee ay eye]

You forgot Taj's Mewtwo for high tier.

 

[`DNS`]

Bush >>>> feathers.

Awww man i just got beat up by a bush

 

[Miggz]

Well it looks like its been a whole week already.

I guess its time to discuss the next character on the tier list. XD

 

[Tero.]

I'm just going to post a little match-up summary of every MU with good posts and other information. This time I won't write much because it's a mirror match and stuff.

I'm going to link this in the first post.

Fox vs Fox Match-Up summary:

• get grabs
• do stuff from grabs (chaingrab)
• edgeguard

Good posts:

Fox vs. Fox is pretty much the better player's game. Both players have the advantage of shine spikes, u-throw -> u-air/u-smash, etc, thunder's combo, and chain grabbing. It's also a lot of "who-used-what-when", as is any match.

In regards to edge guarding Fox with Fox...down smash, forward tilts, up tilts (preferably with back facing the edge) and jabs are all capable of knocking Fox out of his illusion/side B. If you are standing on the stage and the Fox is using Up B, you have a lot of options. You can quickly grab the edge, drop down and shine spike while the Fox is charging their Up B. Some Foxes use ledge hop dair (with invulnerable frames) to hit Fox out of his Up B, despite it not being a fatal hit. But Fox's dair is surprisingly still pretty useful in knocking the Fox below the stage for more options. Dropping from the edge, you can also use Bair to hit Fox out of his Up B.

To get even more fancy...Fox can drop from the ledge, shine, turn around while in shine, jump cancel shine to nair. I find this technique to be extremely useful on multiple characters who are recovering. Its also useful if for some reason you miss shine spiking Fox's Up B...then the shine turn around nair is a backup option.

I'll post some more information regarding the onstage strategies.

Fox versus Fox comes down to who is smarter (obviously because characters are identical).

That Match-up (like almost every high/top tier MU) is just about getting a grab then doing as much damage as possible and either kill (usmash/uair as the most common finishers) or get them offstage and set up for edgeguarding (because of the fact that Fox is a fast faller much more likely) which will then result into taking the stock.

To get the grab you will have to punish any mistake your opponent is doing. I would mostly determine approaches as the major source of getting grabs. This can either be you approaching or your opponent approaching and you countering his approach to grab.

If you approach you'll either trick your opponent and get that grab or you'll fail and your opponent grabs and therefore takes the stock (and vince versa of course).

So basically watch your approaches, punish their mistakes and edgeguard flawless and you'll be fine.

In the Fox ditto, it's often a good idea to attack second. Camp dash dance, space nairs in nonpunishable ways, camp platforms, running shield, and crouch canceling are all effective ways of baiting out their attacks. At lower %, it's often a good strategy to trade blows, or to tank their **** and grab them.

It mostly comes down to whoever is the better player, but a lesser skilled player can take a set from a better player by playing gay, too.

Actually:

CG Fox v Fox/Falco

-Works until 80% if your opponent continues to d.i. left/right

-Works until 55% if your opponent doesn't d.i. at/around that percent. Sometimes you can shine or jump out as early as 50%.

-Foxes who know what they are doing will continue the CG if their opponent doesn't know to NOT d.i. If they see their opponent neutral d.i.ing and trying to escape, they should utilt/bair/usmash instead of trying to re-grab.

-Fox/Falcos who know what they are doing will stop d.i.ing at 50 and try to mash down+b or jump out.

Other information:

-Fox/Falcos who know what they are doing will stop d.i.ing chaingrabs because d.i.ing chaingrabs usually makes things worse. Focus on d.i.ing the hits after the throws, not the throws themselves. Especially if they are inescapable throw chains (i.e.: Marth, Fox, DK). This is in relation to FD only, though. If you are on a stage with platforms, d.i.ing towards them after being thrown is obviously in your best interest.

-If you neutral d.i. CGs, it might sometimes be easier to react and smash d.i. nairs/usmashes/utilts away and possibly escape a combo. If you are already d.i.ing a CG, you'll most likely survival d.i. and forget to hold away and get *****. It happens to everyone.

Marth Discussion: GO!

 

[RaynEX]

My internet was out for the latter half of last week. Failure, I had more info for Fox/Fox.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Post it anyways Bernie.