Tero.
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2008
- Messages
- 2,686
What he said.
Go ahead and post it.
-
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-Fox Match-Up Topic- (Week #3: Sheik)
- Thread starter Tero.
- Start date
Go ahead and post it.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
Vs Marth: Ban FD. **** that stage, seriously.
Like the vs Fox match-up, the majority of Fox's game is camping, and grabbing. Like most characters, Fox wants to attack second in this match. Bait an attack, preferably a more laggier attack. It's a good idea to try to bait Marth's grounded moves, since they're significantly more laggy than his aerials. Dash Dance camping, Dashing shield, and Wavedash out of shield are especially useful in the match.
Nair - Shine is often a bad idea, since the stun from Shine is negated when Marth lands after getting sent into the air by Nair. Of course, Nairing a crouch canceling Marth is going to get you grabbed, too. This doesn't mean you SHOULDN'T nair Marth, you just have to be more careful.
Crouch Canceling isn't the best strategy from my experience. CCing Marth often gets you hit to the ground, rather than getting knocked back a negligible distance. Especially tipped moves. CCing non-tipped moves is viable, but it's not the best idea to assume Marth is going to space his moves incorrectly.
Obviously Grab - Uair > Marth.
Some of the best Anti-Marth stages IMO are: Green Greens, Dreamland, and Pokemon Stadium.
Dreamland has a high ceiling, but the platforms are at such a height to stop Marth from utilt-****** efficiently, which saves a lot of % in the long run. Sure, you need to do 10~20% more damage to KO, but the less % you take from easy tech-chases is more important.
Green Greens is Fox's best legal stage IMO. Shine gayness, low % kills over the top, and close blast lines. Fox can return from nearly any point of the map, including underneath, if the player is competent in angling his FireFox. All of Fox's returns break blocks, and usually aren't interrupted by falling blocks, and if angled properly, can grab when turned around, which allows for further return mindgames on the multi-edged stage on either edge of the level.
FoxStadium's platforms are far enough away from each other to prevent easy tech chasing, whilst having a low ceiling for easy over the top KOs. Also; Shine gayness.
Like the vs Fox match-up, the majority of Fox's game is camping, and grabbing. Like most characters, Fox wants to attack second in this match. Bait an attack, preferably a more laggier attack. It's a good idea to try to bait Marth's grounded moves, since they're significantly more laggy than his aerials. Dash Dance camping, Dashing shield, and Wavedash out of shield are especially useful in the match.
Nair - Shine is often a bad idea, since the stun from Shine is negated when Marth lands after getting sent into the air by Nair. Of course, Nairing a crouch canceling Marth is going to get you grabbed, too. This doesn't mean you SHOULDN'T nair Marth, you just have to be more careful.
Crouch Canceling isn't the best strategy from my experience. CCing Marth often gets you hit to the ground, rather than getting knocked back a negligible distance. Especially tipped moves. CCing non-tipped moves is viable, but it's not the best idea to assume Marth is going to space his moves incorrectly.
Obviously Grab - Uair > Marth.
Some of the best Anti-Marth stages IMO are: Green Greens, Dreamland, and Pokemon Stadium.
Dreamland has a high ceiling, but the platforms are at such a height to stop Marth from utilt-****** efficiently, which saves a lot of % in the long run. Sure, you need to do 10~20% more damage to KO, but the less % you take from easy tech-chases is more important.
Green Greens is Fox's best legal stage IMO. Shine gayness, low % kills over the top, and close blast lines. Fox can return from nearly any point of the map, including underneath, if the player is competent in angling his FireFox. All of Fox's returns break blocks, and usually aren't interrupted by falling blocks, and if angled properly, can grab when turned around, which allows for further return mindgames on the multi-edged stage on either edge of the level.
FoxStadium's platforms are far enough away from each other to prevent easy tech chasing, whilst having a low ceiling for easy over the top KOs. Also; Shine gayness.
joeplicate
Smash Master
ruby, calm down lol
I like your enthusiasm, though
I like your enthusiasm, though
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
Miggz
Pancake Sandwiches
Blue Text = Onstage Strategies:
Fox V.S. Marth is arguably the most heated battle in the game. First I'll cover Fox's onstage strategies. On larger stages, such as Final Destination, or Dreamland many players do full jumps and fire lasers. Believe it or not this strategy is actually quite good. Marth doesn't have a long ranged answer to your laser because he lacks projectiles. So when you laser spam Marth, he has no choice but to approach you before he gets too damaged. However, it is important you stop firing when Marth gets close. Marth's strength resides in the tip of his blade, so do keep this in mind.
Another important element for Fox on stage is his grabs. From 0%- to as high as 100% your goal is to up throw to uair. Fox's uair can kill Marth quite easily. However, if you are near the edge of the level, use your forward or back throw to get Marth off the stage for the edge guard. But to actually get a grab on Marth you have to be patient. One method would be to dash dance just outside Marth's tipper range (but if you are feeling brave you can dash dance inside and outside his tipper range). The point of dash dancing like this is to bait Marth into throwing out an attack of some sort, like his forward smash. Marth's forward smash is extremely laggy, so a missed forward smash should be a grab on your part. You can also get a grab by running/dashing into Marth and wave dashing backwards. After the wavedash watch and see if Marth throws out a forward smash or something on those lines. My personal favorite trick to get grab is to run into Marth and shield. After you shield watch for spot dodges or forward smash. After either do a shield grab.
Marth, on the other hand, has an extremely lethal grab game as well. Marth can literally 0% to death a Fox by one grab. His grab game will consist of a series of repetitive up throws. When Fox is around 25%, Marth will start to unleash up tilt(s) and continue to chain grab. When Fox is damaged enough, the Marth player will most likely up throw to a forward smash. To escape chain grabbing, switch up your DI. There is a particular percentage in which Fox can shine out of the chain grab series.
Now for the aerial game. Fox's nair is an extremely important tool in this match up. If you intend to use nair to waveshine it has to be done at extremely low percents, preferably 0%-9%. The reason is because when Fox's nair hits Marth at 10% and higher, he will be slightly lifted off the ground...meaning when you shine, Marth will be in the air. The problem is, when an enemy in the air gets shined he will no longer be stunned the second he lands. Nonetheless, regardless of percents...nair to waveshine is extremely important to execute when Fox's nair hits a shield. The second important aerial in Fox's arsenal is his dair. Fox's dair has zero knock back, meaning regardless of what percent it hits, the opponent will remain grounded. This makes dair a superior lead in to waveshines. Just keep in mind that Fox's dair doesn't have much range/priority, so you will need to get close to your opponent to execute it properly.
Ok so now I have to briefly explain Marth's aerial game. Marth will be using both SHFFL fairs and nairs. At lower percents if his tipper fairs hit you...he will most likely follow it up with a grab and begin a series of chain grabs. Lucky for Fox, he is kind of short so Marth has a slightly harder time connecting his nairs. Nonetheless he will use it to keep you out of his range. There is one trick skilled Marth players love to do and its important that you not repeatedly fall for it. If Marth's SHFFL fair/nair misses he has the ability to immediately dash away (during his dashing away animation Fox players might have attempted to grab, which will miss) and then Marth dashes back in and grabs. So the best thing to do is to simply chase after Marth after he dashes away, instead of throwing out a grab instantly. If you happen to be on a platform then Marth will unleash a series of up tilts or uairs. So it would be best if you avoided standing on platforms when fighting Marth.
Red Text = Edgeguarding Game:
Ok now for the edge guarding game. This is just as complicated and heated as the onstage match up. Fox has many edge guarding tricks up his tiny sleeves. You can wavedash onto the edge. Remember...anytime you are on the ledge you have to restock your invulnerable frames by grabbing the edge, dropping down, jump up, re-grab, repeat. Fox's bair is an extremely powerful edge guarding tool. Bair can intercept Marth's Up B recovery (especially with invulnerable frames). Another option is to simply grab the ledge, drop down on Marth and shine spike him. Believe it or not Fox's nair can also be used an edge guard, but it requires timing on your part. Simply grab the edge and wait for Marth to position himself below you for his Up B. As soon as he uses his Up B use a ledge hop nair. You shouldn't get hit by Marth's Up B as long as you have your invulnerable frames.
Fox can also edge guard while standing near the edge. This next technique is called the light shield edge guard. To do it simply roll backwards as close to the edge as possible, with your back facing the edge. Then light shield (pressing L/R very lightly) and angle your light shield, with your analog stick, towards the recovering Marth. If his Up B hits your shield it will knock Fox onto the edge and push Marth slightly behind Fox, resulting in Marth's death. Fox's forward tilt is also an valuable edge guarding tool.
Finally, its time for Marth's edgeguarding game. Let it be known that Marth is the best edge guarder in this game. Its your responsibility as Fox to make sure your recovery isn't predictable. Also, its important to sweet spot your Up B/Side B. NEVER aim your Up B AT MARTH! Marth's down tilt can knock Fox out of his Up/Side B recoveries. If you are using Side B to recover you can shorten it by pressing B during the "woosh" sound Fox makes. Marth can also stand on the stage's edge and counter your non sweet spotted Up B. One option to avoid this is to aim your Up B straight up (without angling it). You will avoid Marth's counter and you can then proceed to grab the edge.
You also need to be careful where you activate your Up B. Fox's Fire Fox takes a long time to charge. If you activate it too close to the stage (either above the edge or below it) Marth can swat you out of the air with his fair or bair. Marth's ledge hop dair is another tool you need to avoid. Marth's charged B (shield breaker) has the perfect amount of charge up time to counter Fox's Fire Fox. Finally, the most basic edge guarding tool Marth has is forward smash. Its original but hey, it works!
Fox V.S. Marth is arguably the most heated battle in the game. First I'll cover Fox's onstage strategies. On larger stages, such as Final Destination, or Dreamland many players do full jumps and fire lasers. Believe it or not this strategy is actually quite good. Marth doesn't have a long ranged answer to your laser because he lacks projectiles. So when you laser spam Marth, he has no choice but to approach you before he gets too damaged. However, it is important you stop firing when Marth gets close. Marth's strength resides in the tip of his blade, so do keep this in mind.
Another important element for Fox on stage is his grabs. From 0%- to as high as 100% your goal is to up throw to uair. Fox's uair can kill Marth quite easily. However, if you are near the edge of the level, use your forward or back throw to get Marth off the stage for the edge guard. But to actually get a grab on Marth you have to be patient. One method would be to dash dance just outside Marth's tipper range (but if you are feeling brave you can dash dance inside and outside his tipper range). The point of dash dancing like this is to bait Marth into throwing out an attack of some sort, like his forward smash. Marth's forward smash is extremely laggy, so a missed forward smash should be a grab on your part. You can also get a grab by running/dashing into Marth and wave dashing backwards. After the wavedash watch and see if Marth throws out a forward smash or something on those lines. My personal favorite trick to get grab is to run into Marth and shield. After you shield watch for spot dodges or forward smash. After either do a shield grab.
Marth, on the other hand, has an extremely lethal grab game as well. Marth can literally 0% to death a Fox by one grab. His grab game will consist of a series of repetitive up throws. When Fox is around 25%, Marth will start to unleash up tilt(s) and continue to chain grab. When Fox is damaged enough, the Marth player will most likely up throw to a forward smash. To escape chain grabbing, switch up your DI. There is a particular percentage in which Fox can shine out of the chain grab series.
Now for the aerial game. Fox's nair is an extremely important tool in this match up. If you intend to use nair to waveshine it has to be done at extremely low percents, preferably 0%-9%. The reason is because when Fox's nair hits Marth at 10% and higher, he will be slightly lifted off the ground...meaning when you shine, Marth will be in the air. The problem is, when an enemy in the air gets shined he will no longer be stunned the second he lands. Nonetheless, regardless of percents...nair to waveshine is extremely important to execute when Fox's nair hits a shield. The second important aerial in Fox's arsenal is his dair. Fox's dair has zero knock back, meaning regardless of what percent it hits, the opponent will remain grounded. This makes dair a superior lead in to waveshines. Just keep in mind that Fox's dair doesn't have much range/priority, so you will need to get close to your opponent to execute it properly.
Ok so now I have to briefly explain Marth's aerial game. Marth will be using both SHFFL fairs and nairs. At lower percents if his tipper fairs hit you...he will most likely follow it up with a grab and begin a series of chain grabs. Lucky for Fox, he is kind of short so Marth has a slightly harder time connecting his nairs. Nonetheless he will use it to keep you out of his range. There is one trick skilled Marth players love to do and its important that you not repeatedly fall for it. If Marth's SHFFL fair/nair misses he has the ability to immediately dash away (during his dashing away animation Fox players might have attempted to grab, which will miss) and then Marth dashes back in and grabs. So the best thing to do is to simply chase after Marth after he dashes away, instead of throwing out a grab instantly. If you happen to be on a platform then Marth will unleash a series of up tilts or uairs. So it would be best if you avoided standing on platforms when fighting Marth.
Red Text = Edgeguarding Game:
Ok now for the edge guarding game. This is just as complicated and heated as the onstage match up. Fox has many edge guarding tricks up his tiny sleeves. You can wavedash onto the edge. Remember...anytime you are on the ledge you have to restock your invulnerable frames by grabbing the edge, dropping down, jump up, re-grab, repeat. Fox's bair is an extremely powerful edge guarding tool. Bair can intercept Marth's Up B recovery (especially with invulnerable frames). Another option is to simply grab the ledge, drop down on Marth and shine spike him. Believe it or not Fox's nair can also be used an edge guard, but it requires timing on your part. Simply grab the edge and wait for Marth to position himself below you for his Up B. As soon as he uses his Up B use a ledge hop nair. You shouldn't get hit by Marth's Up B as long as you have your invulnerable frames.
Fox can also edge guard while standing near the edge. This next technique is called the light shield edge guard. To do it simply roll backwards as close to the edge as possible, with your back facing the edge. Then light shield (pressing L/R very lightly) and angle your light shield, with your analog stick, towards the recovering Marth. If his Up B hits your shield it will knock Fox onto the edge and push Marth slightly behind Fox, resulting in Marth's death. Fox's forward tilt is also an valuable edge guarding tool.
Finally, its time for Marth's edgeguarding game. Let it be known that Marth is the best edge guarder in this game. Its your responsibility as Fox to make sure your recovery isn't predictable. Also, its important to sweet spot your Up B/Side B. NEVER aim your Up B AT MARTH! Marth's down tilt can knock Fox out of his Up/Side B recoveries. If you are using Side B to recover you can shorten it by pressing B during the "woosh" sound Fox makes. Marth can also stand on the stage's edge and counter your non sweet spotted Up B. One option to avoid this is to aim your Up B straight up (without angling it). You will avoid Marth's counter and you can then proceed to grab the edge.
You also need to be careful where you activate your Up B. Fox's Fire Fox takes a long time to charge. If you activate it too close to the stage (either above the edge or below it) Marth can swat you out of the air with his fair or bair. Marth's ledge hop dair is another tool you need to avoid. Marth's charged B (shield breaker) has the perfect amount of charge up time to counter Fox's Fire Fox. Finally, the most basic edge guarding tool Marth has is forward smash. Its original but hey, it works!
miggz i think u study this game 2 much this is like a college paper
i shall read all of it 2nite tho cant wait for the falco strategies instead of seeing who owns who because i cant fight that creature
Miggz
Pancake Sandwiches
LOL! Nah, that's just simple observations I have gained from playing friendlies. Just imagine if I went to tourneys...I'd have a book. Oh and I actually graduate from college tomorrow. Haha.miggz i think u study this game 2 much this is like a college paper
Da Shuffla
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2008
- Messages
- 1,810
This thread is a stroke of genius. And nice post, Miggz.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
Lol Miggz. You basically took my post, and turned it into like 10 paragraphs.
Miggz
Pancake Sandwiches
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
~Fox v Marth: Don't Get Grabbed!~
-The more you d.i. to the left or to the right, the worse things get. If you continue to d.i. left or right, he can CG you up to 80%. If you stop d.i.ing, you can shine out as early as 20%.
-Its unsafe to jump out, because if they nick you with a fsmash or utilt as you are jumping, you lose that double jump and are at the mercy of Marth's combos (except this time you have no jump to aid in your escape).
-If the Marth knows you are going to shine or jump, he can utilt instead of grab at 20%, or dash back and pivot grab. If he dashes back, he avoids your shine. Because turning around and grabbing gets you before you can jump away, there isn't a way to avoid this. Hope you aren't playing against Marth on FD when this happens.
-If you get hit by an utilt though, d.i. behind Marth's back, to try and get as far away from him as possible to avoid the combo. If you d.i. the utilt in the opposite direction he swings his sword, you'll go straight up - and get death comboed.
-D.i. is really, really key. If you mess up the d.i. on the utilt and he starts fairing you, hoping for a ken combo...remember: ALWAYS D.I. THE FAIRS AWAY! That way, he can't combo into dair, and you have a chance to tech or recover back onto the stage. The only time I would suggest not doing this would be when it would obviously kill you. (i.e.: you are at 150% offstage and get faired)
(will expand on this tomorrow night)
joeplicate
Smash Master
I mean, I like that you're trying to contribute a lot, but I know your relative skill level (tai's told me) and you're talking like you're an authority on fox.
Like I said, it's not a bad thing, it's just kind of cute haha.
I don't know.
And miggz, wow.
I am not reading that whole thing.
Both of you guys are giving a lot of really obvious advice, saying things that have already been said and presenting it as your own. That's good effort, no lie, but we don't need all that text.
"Ok now for the edge guarding game. This is just as complicated and heated as the onstage match up. Fox has many edge guarding tricks up his tiny sleeves."
you don't need to dramatize everything, either, LOL
I'm not tryin to get on your guys' case or anything
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
You obviously are getting on our case, and it's annoying. Also; Why wouldn't I be an authority on either of the characters I play? I've played for a long time, and with very good players, might I add. Just because I can't travel, and have only a few tournaments under my belt does not discredit me as a player, or discredit my knowledge.
Despite you calling what we're saying "obvious." doesn't mean it shouldn't be said. You haven't done anything to further discussion, nor have you contributed anything, so you have no place in the matter to say anything.
joeplicate
Smash Master
yeah, I have lol
I'm not trying to belittle you or anything, you need to calm down
(I'll just keep saying that you need to calm down until you do, because you do)
I never attacked you or said that you're a noob, or that you can't travel therefore your opinion is invalid. You don't have to read so much into things, man, just take it easy lmao
Like I said before, I think it's cool that you're contributing with so much enthusiasm even though you're a newer player, don't take it the wrong way bro.
8-)
I'm not getting on your case
I'm not trying to belittle you or anything, you need to calm down
(I'll just keep saying that you need to calm down until you do, because you do)
I never attacked you or said that you're a noob, or that you can't travel therefore your opinion is invalid. You don't have to read so much into things, man, just take it easy lmao
Like I said before, I think it's cool that you're contributing with so much enthusiasm even though you're a newer player, don't take it the wrong way bro.
8-)
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
2006 isn't that new.
joeplicate
Smash Master
*shrug*
my mistake
my mistake
Da Shuffla
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2008
- Messages
- 1,810
I'm guessing Miggz and RaynEx summed it up. . . Nothing else?
Miggz
Pancake Sandwiches
Well not everyone is going to know everything you and I know. In other words, what is obvious to us isn't going to be obvious to newer/unfamiliar fox players. Oh and I think its cute that you say you weren't going to read my post, yet you found the time to skim it for things to poke fun at. Nice one. lol =P
Anyway, I'm not forcing anyone to read it. Its simply there for those who care/need to know. I'm simply writing what the weekly topic says. Better get use to it, cause I'm going to probably have large posts for a lot of other character match ups.
Stratford
Smash Champion
Except it's actually such a dramatic matchup.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
I will agree that Miggz shouldn't dramatize everything. Being thorough with the explanations of the match up is fine, but it's not like you're writing a novella, or writing for little kids. =x.
joeplicate
Smash Master
just not reading the whole thing
vs marth, you need to punish, hard
if they DI out of uthrow uair, then do fullhop bairs over and over, m2k style
link with fsmash if you think they won't jump out, otherwise just do another bair or nair to finish
if one shuffled nair lifts them off the ground, you can do three or four more at low %s and then shine once they're near the edge, then switch to edgeguarding mode
you can't give marth room to dashdance; know when your opponent is feeling uncomfortable and then pressure even harder. if you get stuck in marth's sword range, this matchup is brutal (you'll get ***** by grabs, uptilts, fsmashes, etc), but with a little extra tech skill and aggressive play it gets a lot more manageable
etc.
Lovage
Smash Hero
my style against marth is to try and use as many random approaches as possible. this includes random short hop illusions, running past them with usmash, running shine grabs. its pretty fun
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
Miggs usually types up the fundamental points in the match-ups. BnB tactics, simple ways to edge-guard - the basics, really. I like to just sprinkle on some random useful information every now and then. People usually don't like huge blocks of texts, from my experience.
Everyone has their own way of doing things I guess.
Everyone has their own way of doing things I guess.
this sounds like what you want to do
Miggz
Pancake Sandwiches
You know me too well, friend. lol
I think I may start using colors for my posts. One color may represent onstage strategies and the other for off stage strategies. I'll probably go back and color code my previous text.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Just do really safe stuff until he does something not safe and then do grab combo or aerial shine grab combo.
Don't get stuck somewhere where you can't do safe stuff.
Don't get grabbed.
Lightshield edgehog destroys his low recovery entirely at any percent, it'll force him onstage and you get a free combo or can just back air him off a billion times until he's dead or if he's at like 85 (higher on dreamland, lower on yoshis, otherwise about 85 with a fresh u-smash is a good percent to start) and then just ledgehop really fast and up smash him and he'll die. If he recovers really high and stuff just grab the edge and ledgestall until he's close and back air with super ledge invincibility. If he starts to go low, just make sure you don't get hit by up+b and try - if you can - to make him go on the stage or edgehog him.
Don't get stuck somewhere where you can't do safe stuff.
Don't get grabbed.
Lightshield edgehog destroys his low recovery entirely at any percent, it'll force him onstage and you get a free combo or can just back air him off a billion times until he's dead or if he's at like 85 (higher on dreamland, lower on yoshis, otherwise about 85 with a fresh u-smash is a good percent to start) and then just ledgehop really fast and up smash him and he'll die. If he recovers really high and stuff just grab the edge and ledgestall until he's close and back air with super ledge invincibility. If he starts to go low, just make sure you don't get hit by up+b and try - if you can - to make him go on the stage or edgehog him.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
Bushy Tail > Marf.
Bushy Tail > Cast. Maybe not Jigglypuff, idk. Haven't tried it.
I love tech chase Bushy Tail - Uair. I've gotten so many stocks off Marf this way.
Bushy Tail > Cast. Maybe not Jigglypuff, idk. Haven't tried it.
I love tech chase Bushy Tail - Uair. I've gotten so many stocks off Marf this way.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Bushy Tail has more range than Sheik's F-tilt.
So CC Bushy Tail might be a viable strategy against Sheik.
So CC Bushy Tail might be a viable strategy against Sheik.
Binx
Smash Master
Just don't try and hit him with an aerial without thinking, either laser and get him to approach and then you can mix it up with dd grabs or intercept him early with grabs or nairs, or dance around on platforms until you find an opening for a bair/nair > grab. Or just DD camp him for grabs and maybe nairs if you are pretty sure he won't grab you / swipe you out of the air.
Once you land a grab you can get a good 30 - 50% and Marth is pretty straightforward as far as edgeguarding goes.
Once you land a grab you can get a good 30 - 50% and Marth is pretty straightforward as far as edgeguarding goes.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
Nairs are bad at low percentage. Like, REALLY bad.
From like 0-30%, Marf can CC it, and intercept with an appropriate attack/grab. Around mid-percentage Nair - Shine leads into getting grabbed.
Nair is however good if you cross-up. Nair, and land behind Marth lowers his options significantly. Especially if he's CCing, or Shielding.
From like 0-30%, Marf can CC it, and intercept with an appropriate attack/grab. Around mid-percentage Nair - Shine leads into getting grabbed.
Nair is however good if you cross-up. Nair, and land behind Marth lowers his options significantly. Especially if he's CCing, or Shielding.
ArcNatural
Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
Even here you have to be careful. It all depends on where you hit the nair. Since CCing will automatically turn you around if you get hit from behind. This happens all the time when people deliberately try to shffl nair behind Marth, and if they crouch before the hit you often end up hitting him from behind on the cross-up rather than the front. Just something to be weary of.
if he has to up-b to recover at all i think you should throw up the light shield. Like kk said, if he does get the stage just bair or something and repeat. It's pretty easy. Just make sure you dont try to fast fall the lightshield edgehog and mess up
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
It doesn't matter what you do against Marth onstage so long as you do it safely. Your goal is to bait something and punish it. Whether you accomplish this by doing very intelligent Nairs (and other assorted aerials), approaching with shield, or by pumping him full of lasers until he gets off his princely rear and attacks you is your call. There are definitely other ways to approach this onstage part, too, but those are just what came to mind. If you think for 2 minutes I'm sure you'll come up with stuff too.
The only real catch is that you have to make him do something first if you're going to engage him for real. Because you engaging him for real is bad. His grab goes through ALL YOUR MOVES. And leads to massive payoff for him.
There's no real catch as to how you make him do something; him doing something can be as trivial as wavedashing and you Nairing him for it. But if he's standing there, you are at a huge, massive, terrible disadvantage if you go and try to rush him down directly. Your movement game will be of huge importance here.
The only real catch is that you have to make him do something first if you're going to engage him for real. Because you engaging him for real is bad. His grab goes through ALL YOUR MOVES. And leads to massive payoff for him.
There's no real catch as to how you make him do something; him doing something can be as trivial as wavedashing and you Nairing him for it. But if he's standing there, you are at a huge, massive, terrible disadvantage if you go and try to rush him down directly. Your movement game will be of huge importance here.
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
I haven't had this problem, and I haven't seen it in videos, so I didn't know about it.
Thanks for the input.
*Edit* One more random bit of advice:
Shine out of run is a good option. If you can do it fluently without Illusioning by mistake, and if you can wavedash out of it on command, then it's a neat little trixy to add into the game.
Miggz
Pancake Sandwiches
My Sheik match up info is almost done. Should be up Friday. XD
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
I'm no good VS Shiek, lol. I won't be able to add any good/decent advice to that match. >.o
Miggz
Pancake Sandwiches
Sheik:
Onstage Strategies:
Fox’s two primary aerials are his SHFFL nair and dair. Both are going to be extremely useful in this matchup. His nair is a decent lead in to waveshines at extremely low percents. At mid percents, SHFFL nairs can be linked into up smashes, or a series of SHFFL nair chains. As for Fox’s SHFFL dair, they are the perfect lead-ins to waveshines at any percents, due to the dairs non existent knock back. You have multiple options when trying to hit Sheik with your aerials. You can use your fluent dash dance to make Sheik wiff out a dash attack or a spot dodge. Running in and wave dashing back can also bait Sheik, in which you can punish with your SHHFL aerials.
Grabs are also essential in this matchup. Up throw to uair combos Sheik from as low as 0% to as high as 100%. Sheik doesn’t actually have an easy to answer to dealing with opponents who are directly underneath her.
It’s extremely important you don’t rush in and blindly throw out SHFFL aerials, hoping you hit Sheik. Sheik’s fluent wavedash, combined with her natural running speed makes here extremely mobile like Fox, meaning she can quickly turn the tables on you. Her dash dash attack around 30% can set Fox up in the air for a forward tilt, to a fair combo. So it’s extremely important you DI away during the forward tilt, and up when hit by the fair.
Sheik’s grab game is also very strong. In the middle of the stage she will rely on her down throws to start up a tech chasing game. This is why it’s extremely important to not be predictable with your techs. Many beginning players forget they have so many options, yet they only use one or two of them. You can tech roll to the right, left, in place. For mindgames sake you could purposely miss your tech and lay there…and do an extremely late wake up attack, or you could simply stand up and grab. Again, switch it up.
Off stage Strategies:
Both Fox and Sheik have extremely gay methods to kill the other when off stage. Let’s talk about Fox’s choices first. One option is to simply grab the edge while Sheik is off the level, recovering, and stall. A few second before Sheik disappears in a cloud of smoke during her Up B, ROLL (don’t simply stand up) onto the stage. If you time this correctly, you would have forced Sheik to land on the stage. Simply walk/run up to her and Up smash for the kill. But it is important to note that Sheik can switch up the precise spot she lands on the stage with DI.
If you are feeling confident and you see the opening, you can drop from the edge, jump at Sheik and bair. Or you can simply drop from the edge (with invulnerable frames) shine spike Sheik, and Up B back. Also remember the forward tilts are an excellent punishing tool to use if Sheik jumps too high above the edge.
Finally, we can quickly go over Sheik’s edge guarding strategies. Sheik can use her needles to actually manipulate your recovery. She can simply shoot a few needles to knock you out of your Side B recovery, thus forcing you to use your Up B recovery. From there Sheik can proceed to deliver a lethal fair. This one reason why switching up your recovery extremely important. You must also be careful where you activate your Up B, for it too is vulnerable during the charging phase. You are safe from needles if you are directly underneath the stage, from there you can angle your Fire Fox accordingly. Sheik’s second (and final one I will cover) edge guarding tactic is her bair. This can eat right through any phase of your Fire Fox.
Onstage Strategies:
Fox’s two primary aerials are his SHFFL nair and dair. Both are going to be extremely useful in this matchup. His nair is a decent lead in to waveshines at extremely low percents. At mid percents, SHFFL nairs can be linked into up smashes, or a series of SHFFL nair chains. As for Fox’s SHFFL dair, they are the perfect lead-ins to waveshines at any percents, due to the dairs non existent knock back. You have multiple options when trying to hit Sheik with your aerials. You can use your fluent dash dance to make Sheik wiff out a dash attack or a spot dodge. Running in and wave dashing back can also bait Sheik, in which you can punish with your SHHFL aerials.
Grabs are also essential in this matchup. Up throw to uair combos Sheik from as low as 0% to as high as 100%. Sheik doesn’t actually have an easy to answer to dealing with opponents who are directly underneath her.
It’s extremely important you don’t rush in and blindly throw out SHFFL aerials, hoping you hit Sheik. Sheik’s fluent wavedash, combined with her natural running speed makes here extremely mobile like Fox, meaning she can quickly turn the tables on you. Her dash dash attack around 30% can set Fox up in the air for a forward tilt, to a fair combo. So it’s extremely important you DI away during the forward tilt, and up when hit by the fair.
Sheik’s grab game is also very strong. In the middle of the stage she will rely on her down throws to start up a tech chasing game. This is why it’s extremely important to not be predictable with your techs. Many beginning players forget they have so many options, yet they only use one or two of them. You can tech roll to the right, left, in place. For mindgames sake you could purposely miss your tech and lay there…and do an extremely late wake up attack, or you could simply stand up and grab. Again, switch it up.
Off stage Strategies:
Both Fox and Sheik have extremely gay methods to kill the other when off stage. Let’s talk about Fox’s choices first. One option is to simply grab the edge while Sheik is off the level, recovering, and stall. A few second before Sheik disappears in a cloud of smoke during her Up B, ROLL (don’t simply stand up) onto the stage. If you time this correctly, you would have forced Sheik to land on the stage. Simply walk/run up to her and Up smash for the kill. But it is important to note that Sheik can switch up the precise spot she lands on the stage with DI.
If you are feeling confident and you see the opening, you can drop from the edge, jump at Sheik and bair. Or you can simply drop from the edge (with invulnerable frames) shine spike Sheik, and Up B back. Also remember the forward tilts are an excellent punishing tool to use if Sheik jumps too high above the edge.
Finally, we can quickly go over Sheik’s edge guarding strategies. Sheik can use her needles to actually manipulate your recovery. She can simply shoot a few needles to knock you out of your Side B recovery, thus forcing you to use your Up B recovery. From there Sheik can proceed to deliver a lethal fair. This one reason why switching up your recovery extremely important. You must also be careful where you activate your Up B, for it too is vulnerable during the charging phase. You are safe from needles if you are directly underneath the stage, from there you can angle your Fire Fox accordingly. Sheik’s second (and final one I will cover) edge guarding tactic is her bair. This can eat right through any phase of your Fire Fox.