-Fox Match-Up Topic- (Week #3: Sheik)

[Miggz]

when you say to di the knee up and the down air down do you mean with both the joystick and the c-stick? the way i understood it was the best way to di would be the joystick in the opposite direction and the c-stick in the perpendicular direction

so to di a knee sending me left i would go up with the c-stick and right with the joystick

sorry this is a bit confusing and not really related to fighting falcon but back on topic

i have heard that you can shine out of chainthrows such as marth's would this mean that a fox could shine out of any throw or would it not be worth the effort?

in relation to falcon i was thinking you could potentially shine out of the up throw and stop the tech chase since you wouldn't hit the ground although you would be vulnerable it could be a decent way to throw off a falcon if they have been tech chasing you and try to set up another one

I'll clarify for ya. The analog/joystick is what controls your DI. The C stick has nothing to do with it. Let's say you get hit by Falcon's dair and it sent you upwards. You know the knee is coming so while you are still stunned in mid air, start holding up on the analog stick. So for your example, a knee that sends you left requires you to DI up. Remember, don't wait till after the knee hits to DI. As soon as the dair sends you in the air, start holding up on the analog stick/joystick...this will make your DI more effective.

Its not worth shining out of Falcon's up throw. You also have to remember that both Falcon and Marth's up throw send Fox in different angles. Marth is also a little taller then Falcon, which makes shining him during chain grabs more effective. So yeah, I wouldn't recommend shining Falcon after he up throws you.

 

[Milos]

i dunno, around like 80-100% i just PC DI the uthrow so im right above him and shine, it works a lot more than you'd think

 

[unknown522]

i dunno, around like 80-100% i just PC DI the uthrow so im right above him and shine, it works a lot more than you'd think

what! there's a name for that DI?

 

[Milos]

the pc chris DI

he been doing that **** on marth's chain grab forever and ever

 

[Jartravious]

The analog/joystick is what controls your DI. The C stick has nothing to do with it.

really? i have heard from several players that the c-stick input effects di

i was under the assumption that using the c-stick was smash di

time to go read all of magus' posts

on topic with falcon how do you guys feel about stage selection? i think this would be a great addition to the match up guide along with miggz's on stage and off stage strats

it seems to me that every falcon auto-bans FoD for the other neutral stages yoshi's gives you and falcon lower percent kills and the stage is small enough for falcon's recover to be more than enough (especially with the cloud, heard his name's Randal). falcon's d-air can hit you below the platforms and set up into a tech chase so I like to avoid it but I want to see what others say

i'm not really to sure about battle field any suggestions? Dreamland 64 seems like a good option since your taking away from falcon's knee although its not much. The large sides put falcon in more gimping opportunities it seems and you can platform/dashdance camp well but so can falcon... on DL64 it seems to all come down to spacing and gimps since the high ceiling takes away fox's low percent up-airs and up-smashes

I know most of this is pretty obvious but i'd really like to see what others say about stages in match ups

 

[esoh.]

holding the c stick before you get hit gives you 1 frame of smash di in that direction

this is called automatic smash DI or ASDI

 

[Miggz]

the pc chris DI

he been doing that **** on marth's chain grab forever and ever

Yeah I'm a little surprised it has a name too. =P

Anyway, I know Fox can shine out of Marth's up throw.

I was saying shining out of Falcon's up throw isn't a good strategy. Out of all the videos I have watched with this match up, I have never seen it done, due to better options available.

 

[RaynEX]

This is a hugely shortened re-do of the post I lost two days ago. lol

holding the c stick before you get hit gives you 1 frame of smash di in that direction

this is called automatic smash DI or ASDI

Holding the c-stick in a direction before you are sent flying automatically inputs SDI and alters your trajectory. We call this ASDI (Automatic Smash d.i.), not SDI.

This, however, is not nearly as effective as actually smash d.i.ing it. SDIing is simply hitting the control stick in the direction required for proper d.i. exactly as a move connects with your character's body.

Yeah I'm a little surprised it has a name too. =P

Anyway, I know Fox can shine out of Marth's up throw.

I was saying shining out of Falcon's up throw isn't a good strategy. Out of all the videos I have watched with this match up, I have never seen it done, due to better options available.

He has no other options besides jumping. Shining would be the next best thing. The only reason I wouldn't suggest trying it would be if they were going for a fsmash or knee. In which case, you'd be holding down to shine then West Coast d.i. to your death.

 

[Jartravious]

Also, when d.i.ing hits that send you flying horizontally: you'll find that your chances of surviving will increase even more dramatically if you smash d.i. up+towards (or simply hold up + towards).

Holding the c-stick in a direction before you are sent flying automatically inputs SDI and alters your trajectory. We call this ASDI (Automatic Smash d.i.), not SDI.

This, however, is not nearly as effective as actually smash d.i.ing it. SDIing is simply hitting the control stick in the direction required for proper d.i. exactly as a move connects with your character's body.

when you say "up + towards" what specifically do you mean? like up with c-stick and towards (as in the stage?) with the joystick? Also do you only need to ASDI for the first frame or does holding it longer effect it?

 

[Ocho(*8*)]

when you say "up + towards" what specifically do you mean? like up with c-stick and towards (as in the stage?) with the joystick? Also do you only need to ASDI for the first frame or does holding it longer effect it?

If you got sent horizontally to the right, then up + towards would be up and to the left. To ASDI you need the C-Stick in the right place before you get hit. After you get hit the C-stick is useless and you should focus on the joystick. What you do with the Joystick is SDI and then DI. The SDI is hard to get and really make sure you get the DI.

Just to make sure you understand you can only SDI during the Hitlag frames which is the time between getting hit and being sent flying. (not a long time)

 

[Miggz]

If Falcon spaces his nair/moves back with it, the tip will beat out Fox's nair. You're right though, if Fox gets inside Falcon can't do much.

Ah yes, yes! Makes sense. Duh Miguel. ^^;

His best aerial out of shield would probably be nair. It doesn't combo as well, but it comes out faster and has more range. It beats out a variety of moves if you do it early enough. Dair is good, but everyone does it. Its so slow and so easily beaten by the quick tilts and jabs.

My gosh, I totally overlooked Falcon's nair. You are right about the "everyone does it" part, if only I had a dollar for every time I have seen it. lol But yeah, nair is undoubtedly faster.

You definitely need to be higher than 35% for Falcon to combo dair/raptor boost into knee. I'd say to start preparing to d.i. if you get hit by either at 50%.

Also, when d.i.ing hits that send you flying horizontally: you'll find that your chances of surviving will increase even more dramatically if you smash d.i. up+towards (or simply hold up + towards).

Falcon can uthrow knee you at maybe 85% and higher.

Up + towards huh? I never knew that. Thanks a lot man, I'm going to abuse that one. Very useful information, indeed.

Thanks for the corrections, friend. I just hope your computer won't give ya anymore grief.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ok im jumping into this discussion right here.

i looked back for a few pages, but i'm still a bit confused: what matchup are we discussing atm? title says sheik but youre talking about falcon....

 

[Miggz]

Well .Tero hasn't been updating the title for this thread for a while.

He's probably really busy, I guess.

I think we are finishing up the Falcon information this week.

By Monday we will most likely be on the next character.

 

[Tero.]

Yeah I've been busy and couldn't keep track of the discussion.
Should I change the title to Falcon or do you still want to discuss Falco?

 

[Miggz]

Actually, I think it'll be a good idea to change it to Jigglypuff by Wednesday, if you can.

But if you want to change it to Falcon, you can. But by Wednesday I wouldn't mind kicking of the Jiggz topic.

 

[Deleted member]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=1073091&postcount=1

this list isn't outdated by any means, you should hold onto it as a reference.

 

[Winston]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=1073091&postcount=1

this list isn't outdated by any means, you should hold onto it as a reference.

fox goes even with peach, ic, mario, doc... never heard that one before

 

[joeplicate]

shameless self-promotion

I am appalled =o

 

[RaynEX]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=1073091&postcount=1

this list isn't outdated by any means, you should hold onto it as a reference.

As soon as I saw Fox/Roy even on FD I closed the page. Are you kidding me?

 

[unknown522]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=1073091&postcount=1

this list isn't outdated by any means, you should hold onto it as a reference.

IT's not outdated, but it's mostly wrong anyways, even for back then.

 

[Miggz]

Yeah there was a few things on that list that made my eyebrow raise up a bit...

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

As soon as I saw Fox/Roy even on FD I closed the page. Are you kidding me?

that was made around the time of neo. there is a long forgotten set of him vs ken in some big tourney finals. his roy did fairly well, it was a close set.

 

[RaynEX]

that was made around the time of neo. there is a long forgotten set of him vs ken in some big tourney finals. his roy did fairly well, it was a close set.

I'm pretty sure I saw that. Then I watched another set of matches right after where he Marth dittoed and almost won.

 

[Mogwai]

Don't get hung up on the Roy thing guys, that part's actually pretty legit. Roy's game on FD vs. Fox is only slightly worse than Marth's, it's not Roy's fault that there are like 2 or 3 respectable Roy players.

The rest of the list is pretty outdated though and you should be taking more issue with Falco vs. Fox being a counter (it's pretty **** even the way both characters are played these days), the laughable even matchups (mario, doc, peach, ICs? are you kidding me? Fox gives all of them the business), and the statement that a whole slew of characters can 0-death any Fox DI (How are mewtwo/ness/Pichu/Peach/etcetcetcetc going to end their combo in death in a way that is any more reliable than a CF/Falco combo that ends by tech chasing?)

 

[unknown522]

^ fair enough.

I think it's in falco's favor, but I understand the points to why falco / fox is even.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Don't get hung up on the Roy thing guys, that part's actually pretty legit. Roy's game on FD vs. Fox is only slightly worse than Marth's, it's not Roy's fault that there are like 2 or 3 respectable Roy players.

The rest of the list is pretty outdated though and you should be taking more issue with Falco vs. Fox being a counter (it's pretty **** even the way both characters are played these days), the laughable even matchups (mario, doc, peach, ICs? are you kidding me? Fox gives all of them the business), and the statement that a whole slew of characters can 0-death any Fox DI (How are mewtwo/ness/Pichu/Peach/etcetcetcetc going to end their combo in death in a way that is any more reliable than a CF/Falco combo that ends by tech chasing?)

ness can do it. 1 grab on FD and it leads into uair chains (that can be continued no matter which way you DI) and can end in bair or fsmash (or both :D)

and DK can do a similar thing if he gets a grab off...

pichu/pikachu **** spacies on FD. they can CG and combo them all over the stage, and off stage they gimp very well. kdj used to take MMs with his pichu on FD (i think theres a set of it on YT) and look at anther's pikachu or chu's or chad's

peach has chaingrab on fox, and good combos.

jigglypuff can obviously combo fox to death (or uthrow rest)

ICs obviously have chaingrabs on fox and can (and WILL) take you 0-death if you get grabbed.

marth even more obvious...

mewtwo has tech chase and fair combos on fox, and he can also edge guard pretty well. check out taj if you haven't

thats everyone that he listed can 0-death fox. if you look, some of the matchups that fox can get 0-deathed in he is still countering those characters. its because the combos are hard to set up, and fox is very agile.

 

[joeplicate]

if you DI behind dk (at mid-ish percents) he usually has to switch to bair at some point

 

[RaynEX]

There are very few people in our smash scene that can combo FFallers 0-death with low tiers EVERYTIME. I'm pretty sure that even Taj ****s up. We should go by what would actually happen in a real game, as opposed to what MIGHT be possible IF the person is crazy enough to 0-death combo FFallers consistently with low tiers.

Ness - Might be able to do good damage if he gets a grab. But realistically, he isn't going to get many grabs vs. anyone good. Fox still wins with faster moves and higher priority when it comes to landing the first hit. Don't forget more agility, better edge-guarding, easier and more efficient comboing, and a better defensive game.

What I'm trying to say is, while the low tiers may have a few decent combos on Fox/Falco, its still not enough to even whisper the word "counter", or "even". Everything else is so grossly stacked against them there isn't any point in doing so.

 

[Mogwai]

ness can do it. 1 grab on FD and it leads into uair chains (that can be continued no matter which way you DI) and can end in bair or fsmash (or both :D)

and DK can do a similar thing if he gets a grab off...

pichu/pikachu **** spacies on FD. they can CG and combo them all over the stage, and off stage they gimp very well. kdj used to take MMs with his pichu on FD (i think theres a set of it on YT) and look at anther's pikachu or chu's or chad's

peach has chaingrab on fox, and good combos.

jigglypuff can obviously combo fox to death (or uthrow rest)

ICs obviously have chaingrabs on fox and can (and WILL) take you 0-death if you get grabbed.

marth even more obvious...

mewtwo has tech chase and fair combos on fox, and he can also edge guard pretty well. check out taj if you haven't

thats everyone that he listed can 0-death fox. if you look, some of the matchups that fox can get 0-deathed in he is still countering those characters. its because the combos are hard to set up, and fox is very agile.

look, the important part of what he said in that post that's worth ripping apart is that the characters with a '*' next to their name have 0-deathgs vs. any DI and most of them didn't have a stage specification, which is purely bull****.

Pika grabs you at 0, you DI away. HE HAS NO FOLLOW UPS. Pikachu only can follow a uthrow @ 0 vs. no/slight DI. His chain throw also doesn't lead to automatic death.

Mewtwo is even more ridiculous, he has no reliable follow ups that are better than say, CF tech chasing into knee after a certain point.

These are just examples of some gripes I have with it. To point out that certain characters have 0-deaths that work some times while ignoring others is silly. Falco is going to 0-death you more often than Mewtwo is, so why doesn't he have a '*' next to his name. The distinction is silly and just flat out wrong.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

just because they don't combo like falco or CF, doesn't mean they dont combo.

we'll go with the pikachu one: fox DIs away uthrow @ 0%. tech chasing isnt hard at all. regrab until you can straight CG, or predict the tech and punish with a dsmash or usmash.

by your logic, CF actually has no combos on fox, unless fox no DI's a dair at 70 then DIs in the uair and finishes with knee.

i will agree it is difficult to do the combos with mewtwo, but taj does them.

 

[Mogwai]

just because they don't combo like falco or CF, doesn't mean they dont combo.

we'll go with the pikachu one: fox DIs away uthrow @ 0%. tech chasing isnt hard at all. regrab until you can straight CG, or predict the tech and punish with a dsmash or usmash.

by your logic, CF actually has no combos on fox, unless fox no DI's a dair at 70 then DIs in the uair and finishes with knee.

you clearly still aren't getting my point. there is no "logic" here, I'm simply calling mow out on blowing things out of proportion for a whole **** ton of matchups.

 

[Winston]

just because they don't combo like falco or CF, doesn't mean they dont combo.

we'll go with the pikachu one: fox DIs away uthrow @ 0%. tech chasing isnt hard at all. regrab until you can straight CG, or predict the tech and punish with a dsmash or usmash.

by your logic, CF actually has no combos on fox, unless fox no DI's a dair at 70 then DIs in the uair and finishes with knee.

i will agree it is difficult to do the combos with mewtwo, but taj does them.

CF doesn't have combos on fox, just **** techchases/bad DI punishing.

I agree with Mogwai on how a lot of low tiers' combo games on fastfallers are overrated.

Roy does do fine vs fox on FD though. That part seems pretty accurate.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

oh i agree that the characters do really bad, i'm just pointing out that the info is pretty accurate (or at least was at the time)

 

[Mogwai]

I'm not saying that it's irrelevant due to the fact that the characters suck and will still not win.

I'm saying that this post:

the REAL fox counter-character list
For our fav. furry Fox:

countered by:
falco (non-FD only)
marth (FD only) *

even with:
falco (FD only)
roy (FD only)
marth (non-FD only)
sheik
mario
doc
peach *
ICs *

counters:
bowser
yoshi
DK *
Falcon
Ganon
Kirby
Ness *
Jigglypuff *
Samus
Pichu *
roy (non-FD only)
luigi
link
young link
Zelda
mewtwo *
G&W
pikachu *

* = can take fox 0 to death, any DI, usually from a grab.

is just wrong with it's *s

it says * means they can take fox 0 to death ANY DI, which is not true for all but Marth on FD and ICs (and if we also assume FD for him, DK). To the extent that the other characters with *s are capable of 0-deathing Fox (note: taking out the ANY DI clause cause it's stupid), roy on FD, Falco, and Falcon at the very least are equally capable of 0-deathing him (and I'd argue that the Marios, Luigi, Yoshi, and Ganon are roughly as capable as Pichu, Ness, Peach, Pikachu and Mewtwo of 0-deathing Fox).

[/rant][/mogwai in this thread]

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Also, when d.i.ing hits that send you flying horizontally: you'll find that your chances of surviving will increase even more dramatically if you smash d.i. up+towards (or simply hold up + towards).

I am pretty sure the best way to DI is generally perpendicular to the attack, so if a move was sending you completely horizontal, smash DI straight up would work the best. Than rolling your control stick back towards the stage when the hitstun wears off.

Though it isn't this simple, it depends on what character you are using and how easily they die to the side vs the top of the screen.

Holding the c-stick in a direction before you are sent flying automatically inputs SDI and alters your trajectory. We call this ASDI (Automatic Smash d.i.), not SDI.

This, however, is not nearly as effective as actually smash d.i.ing it. SDIing is simply hitting the control stick in the direction required for proper d.i. exactly as a move connects with your character's body.

ASDI basically moves your character a little bit the exact instant you get hit. So say you missed a rest as jiggs and your opponent falco fsmashes, if you asdi down jiggs will shift downwards a bit before she actually starts flying. This is what allows you to ... [can't remember the term... floor tech?].

Smash DI effects the character during their knockback trajectory. The control stick asdi's automatically along with normal DI I believe., however the cstick outprioritizes the control stick in terms of asdi. So you can asdi one way with the cstick and SDI a different way with the control stick.

Magus explains this way better.

correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I am pretty sure the best way to DI is generally perpendicular to the attack, so if a move was sending you completely horizontal, smash DI straight up would work the best. Than rolling your control stick back towards the stage when the hitstun wears off.

the first part is true about regular DI, but when you SDI you actually move through the air during the hit stun in the direction you are smashing. so its most efficient to SDI directly opposite your trajectory and then DI perpendicular.

 

[Milos]

haha sveet i remember you flamed me on youtube.

um i've never really heard of you but you seem kinda lame judging by these last 20 posts

 

[KirbyKaze]

I thought Pika could regrab at 0 if Fox DI away or behind.

The more you know I guess.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

haha sveet i remember you flamed me on youtube.

um i've never really heard of you but you seem kinda lame judging by these last 20 posts

lol i used to like flaming people on yt..... sorry bout that

 

[Miggz]

haha sveet i remember you flamed me on youtube.

um i've never really heard of you but you seem kinda lame judging by these last 20 posts

LOL!

The frightening part is I remember him doing the same thing to me too. This was a long time ago though.