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Fox Match-Up General Discussion

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Conviction

Conviction

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Pgh-M@v-Pgh said:
1st off, MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!!!!




Me and a couple others discussed it in the link boards when they covered fox.. Lucario is 4:6 also and there is no description, for the same reasons.

Ok Lol, Ganon is done, 70-30 it is.

Next, the manliest person in the game, Captain Falcon!



I propose the same numbers? :p
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Ok I'm become neutral on sides but I proposed to the seeming leader of Ganon boards a forum battle.. so what do you think? Merry Christmas!
 
SCOTU

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65:35 at worst. I'd go with 60:40 though. Falcon can actually do some pretty nice edgeguards on fox, w/ his uair and bair. He's fast, so doesn't have the out maneuvered problems that any of the 70:30 people get ***** by. He's not very large so that the dair doesn't **** him. In general though, fox does outplay CF, and can get him offstage relatively easily, and edgeguard him like a cake. that's right, not like a piece of cake. the whole goddam cake. so I'd say 60:40.
 
Conviction

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scotu said:
65:35 at worst. I'd go with 60:40 though. Falcon can actually do some pretty nice edgeguards on fox, w/ his uair and bair. He's fast, so doesn't have the out maneuvered problems that any of the 70:30 people get ***** by. He's not very large so that the dair doesn't **** him. In general though, fox does outplay CF, and can get him offstage relatively easily, and edgeguard him like a cake. that's right, not like a piece of cake. the whole goddam cake. so I'd say 60:40.
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Lol cake is a lie...?
 
-Mars-

-Mars-

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Ray_Kalm said:
I wonder how many skillful Ganons you guys played. This matchups a lot like G&W, a skillful Ganon would be avoiding your attack to the point where he could punish, and he punishes pretty well. Then, a skillful Ganon would just repeat this to the point where he could KO Fox (4-5 Hits IMO).
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Well i've played A2ZOMG online and a few others. I haven't met up with a stellar Ganon in real life....but it really doesn't matter.

Your not going to be avoiding any attacks......we're going to be avoiding yours. WE DO NOT HAVE TO APPROACH AT ALL.

Merry CHristmas everyone:)
 
Ray_Kalm

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marsulas said:
Well i've played A2ZOMG online and a few others. I haven't met up with a stellar Ganon in real life....but it really doesn't matter.

Your not going to be avoiding any attacks......we're going to be avoiding yours. WE DO NOT HAVE TO APPROACH AT ALL.

Merry CHristmas everyone:)
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Xlblisx hurry up with that challenge.
 
Ray_Kalm

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A6M Zero said:
Discussing this matchup is a ****ing joke.


Fox ***** Ganon. Ganon mains (rofl) should suck it up and go focus on a matchup they can actually win, like Game and Watch.
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Now, you should try saying that again. Hopefully that 3-1 loss put some sense in you.
 
gantrain05

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you can't judge a match by wifi, fox requires quick reflexes to avoid attacks and punish, whereas on wifi ganon can throw out every single move he has, (which btw, i think that EVERY single move in his arsenal is a kill move) and you are going to land something devestating eventually.
 
Zhamy

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Back on topic, please.

We're done discussing Ganon; what about Captain Falcon?
 
Zhamy

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Captain Falcon has a monster of a Jab, though, and can punish Fox's fast falling speed quite a bit better.
 
Toronto Joe

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Toronto Joe said:
i wouldnt go as far as 70-30......a good Ganon is not going to be that easy, utilt does allow for a distinct early lead but Ganons power and Foxes weight make killing fox just as easy....dsmash is good vs Ganon at high percents because the horizontal knockback of it usually makes it impossible for him to recover, drill shines work nicely, hell even shine spikes can do the job, basically almost all of Foxes tactics can be pulled off in this matchup......just play smart and you should win, be cautious when your approaching since he is so strong......Ganon has some mindgames so make sure you know whats coming before you get rocked(looks at the time when a Ganon did an auto cancelled dair into an fsmash and caught me off guard, not to mention KO'd me:laugh:)

ps: does Ganon have any reliable moves out of his side b vs Fox? i dont remember and this would be good to know

65/35 or 60/40
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this is what i said earlier for Ganon and i was pretty right about it(kosk caught me the dair to fsmash mindgame lol irony)..........to answer my 2nd question dtilt combo out of it and depending on your di can lead into an aerial, ganons uair is a great edgegaurding tool vs fox, foxes bair is great vs Ganon also.......i will have the match of me and kosk on delfino up this week for you guys to look at
 
-Mars-

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Toronto Joe said:
this is what i said earlier for Ganon and i was pretty right about it(kosk caught me the dair to fsmash mindgame lol irony)..........to answer my 2nd question dtilt combo out of it and depending on your di can lead into an aerial, ganons uair is a great edgegaurding tool vs fox, foxes bair is great vs Ganon also.......i will have the match of me and kosk on delfino up this week for you guys to look at
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Lets not get all ruffled up over some WiFI matches and change the matchup ratio because koskinator laid it to a couple Fox players.

Toronto, I doubt you were playing the way you would in a tournament against Ganon. I'm sure you were being honorable and actually playing. In a tournament I would camp, then when Ganon gets close to me I would run away and camp some more.

In my matches against Kalm, I didn't play gay because it's WiFi and I want to have fun.........we shouldn't be changing our agreed upon ratio because of WiFI matches.
 
NeverKnowsBest

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^Yeah that sounds about the most rational idea. Because you can't change the match-up if you are unable to do the techniques you usually do offline, online. Like I can't camp or shine stall at all online so I think that the majority of the games I had with Kalm this morning were usless. They were however AWESOME! Ganon traps are gangsta.
 
Toronto Joe

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yeah when talking to Kosk we did say that if Fox played as lame as possible he could run laps around Ganon, but still, saying its 70-30 is just too extreme, that means ganon is at a major major disadvantage, almost ics vs fox kinda idea...its 65-35 or 60-40 depending on the level

edit-also you guys gotta help me vs Oli........he has like a 0-50 chain and he sheildgrabs fox **** well, help a brutha out
 
JigglyZelda003

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2 words "spot dodge". Olis grabs are evil and foxs FF butt doesn't help that much here. i usually try to camp oli a bit. but i don't fight them much as Fox so thats all i have to say.
 
gantrain05

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Toronto Joe said:
yeah when talking to Kosk we did say that if Fox played as gay as possible he could run laps around Ganon, but still, saying its 70-30 is just too extreme, that means ganon is at a major major disadvantage, almost ics vs fox kinda idea...its 65-35 or 60-40 depending on the level

edit-also you guys gotta help me vs Oli........he has like a 0-50 chain and he sheildgrabs fox **** well, help a brutha out
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well i second olimar, and im just gonna say, your gonna have to suck it up lol, you can spotdodge, but if olimar is close enough with the pikmin it will grab you after the dodge animation
 
Lightning93

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Oh thank god, I go away for some Christmas fun, and I come back to this mess which I just finished reading. (I'm jk I love the Fox matchups.) Yeah, Ganon can surprise you, but that's something you just have to look out for, you can combo him really well if you mix in some grabs so this is definitely our advantage.

I have a friend who mains CF along with Shiek. His jabs can lead to some nasty grab combos, due to his u-air range, and he can edge-guard fairly well. He can mix in some well placed knees, b-airs, and u-airs, along with his spike, (all of his aerials lol) and if he falcon kicks on the stage, it can be used to close the distance between your phantasm to the stage and CF. The Falcon Punch is a threat, and is a legitimate edge guarding tool if used appropriately. Because of it's new 180 degree feature, you may find yourself actually rolling into one instead of away. Edge guard him quickly, otherwise you will get YEAHZ stage spiked (up-b), because Falcon does hit hard. His speed combined with n-air can make it annoying to approach, but your lasers could take care of that problem. It's not so easy for him to escape your combos, so just keep the pressure going and finish him. I say 60:40-65:45 Fox from personal rl experience, although my friend usually wins with CF it's probably because he has better mindgames and more skill. (Hopefully he doesn't read this.)

ON THE THIRD DAY OF CHRISTMAS SANTA GAVE TO ME, A D-AIR TO AN UP-TILT!
 
Veggi

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Like wise, I have a friend who mains Captain Falcon, actually I have two friends who main him.

As ridiculous as this sounds, I'm actually going to have to argue that this is in Captain Falcon's favor.

The key points I'm trying to get at here is that Captain Falcon can't be edgeguarded almost at all, when Fox edgeguards CF it actually puts him in a disadvantaged position. I've drill shined my friend countless amounts of times off stage and he just continued to make it back up and edge hog me on his way. As an example to show Captain Falcon's edgehog ability, ask the Peach boards about their second jump and how useful it is for edge-hogging because it refreshes invincibility frames fast. Then not both Mario and Marth and how their up-b's function so that they almost always sweetspot the edge before the person they are off-stage with, which gives them a very notable advantage. This is actually very important because Captain Falcon has control of the edge game completely. Shine-stalling won't work because you gradually go down and Captain Falcon can refresh more efficiently than you can stall. More or less prolonging the same thing.

The Captain is also much better at edgeguarding you than you are edgeguarding him, if any of you have ever seen the flubbed knee to uair combo, it wrecks Fox. Hugging up against the stage while recovering will stage spike you due to Fir Fox's lengthy travel time and the lingering hit box on Falcon's bair. Fire Fox takes forever to recover with, Captain Falcon can get you any time you use it. He can intercept Fox Illusion as well through quite a lot of things. Captain's jab combos are very good and he can lead a lot in from his jab. Statistically he's also faster on the ground and in the air than Fox is and this also is a reason Fox's camp game barely works on him. His uair is very good and chains into itself and from a variety of his other moves and gives Fox's air game trouble. Due to Fox's recovery, it's easiest to finish him off while he's recovering and he has his knee has a great aerial finisher for that job. Captain Falcon is also a lot heavier than Fox and won't be dying very easily.

More or less, I have trouble beating my friends CF with Fox so I use Mario for the match-up, from my experience I'd have to say 40-60 Captain Falcon.
 
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Coming in from the falcon boards :D
Falcon has very few to no approach options, but has fox beat in one area, FOX CAN'T OUTRUN DIS GAI

Falcon can beat laser spam by rushing in with a stutter usmash, a falcon kick, or raptor boost. Space properly to avoid usmash, powershield or jump > dair falcon kick, and shield to LOLOWN raptor boost.

Falcon's grabs are quite good, actually, he has a psuedo chain grab on fthrow if you don't respond fast enough. You can fair right out of the throws though, unless the CF you're fighting is Falcon Dive happy.

Speaking of which, Falcon dive is a grab type move, so it'll cut right through your attacks with grab priority. It has incredible knockback, and stage spikes if you get caught on the ledge with your pants down. CF's also have a true combo from cancelling nair after first hit to falcon dive, or failed knee ground cancelled into falcon dive. Be aware.

Falcon punch shouldn't be seen often, but exercise caution when using illusion to recover, or you may end up flying straight into the fiery fist of justice.

The knee SEEMS to have gotten nerfed, but in actuality any good falcon will know how to land it. Don't underestimate a falcon jumping at you, a bad spotdodge could lead to getting kneed. Falcon's also love to jump over their opponent and bair them, which is a fairly safe approach. Another true combo is dair to knee... it works at higher percentages, but you still need to be careful if the falcon starts autocancel dairing.

You CAN gimp falcon's Falcon dive, but considering your options to do so, its very dangerous, because of the risk of getting WTFSTAGESPIKED AT 17% and dying. Raptor boost is also a common recovery, theres a mock waveland on curved stages, and its spikes should it land in the aerial format.

Oh yeah, Falcon kick loses its lag when it flies over the edge, watch out or you might get edgeguarded off of a falcon kick off the edge.

I don't think Falcon can hold a candle up to projectile users, but fox's has no stun. Fox doesn't seem to have a stunning range advantage, so Falcon has a better time

I'd say Fox 60:40
 
Lightning93

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After hearing Veggi's side, it actually seemed to explain some of the reasons why I do lose to CF. He has amazing options when edge guarding Fox, and he does have legitimate combos that can wreck big damage and knockback if you're not careful. However, although Fox can have trouble camping because of Falcon's speed, if he is fast he can still avoid a Falcon approach. Gimping Falcon causes big problems for Fox if not pulled correctly, but with Fox's superior damage racking abilities and easier-to-follow-up smashes, he doesn't need to all the time. I say from 50:50-60:40 Fox.

ON THE FOURTH DAY OF CHRISTMAS SANTA GAVE TO ME, A F-THROW TO A F-THROW! AT LOWER PERCENTS!
 
Lightning93

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Well the Foxes who have played CF mains say it's not so much of a Fox advantage. But the majority of the Fox community is saying it is a definite 60:40 advantage, unless some of those people have played CF mains as well. Personally for me, me and my CF main friend fluctuate our matchup numbers, but it's always between 60:40 and 50:50 so um lol I dunno.
 
Dragoomba

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Lightning93 said:
Well the Foxes who have played CF mains say it's not so much of a Fox advantage. But the majority of the Fox community is saying it is a definite 60:40 advantage, unless some of those people have played CF mains as well. Personally for me, me and my CF main friend fluctuate our matchup numbers, but it's always between 60:40 and 50:50 so um lol I dunno.
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I don't believe it will be 50:50. Fox has his laser and dair, plus Falcon's knee is sort of hard to land on Fox because of his size and speed.
 
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