Fox Match-Up General Discussion

[Shintarru]

I would say Brinstar is a good cp to pick. If not bristar then norfair. The Ice climbers have the advantage in this match but not by much IMO

Its about 65-35 IC

EDIT: @ Galanoth thanks^_^

 

[Galanoth7395]

More on IC...

1.) If you KO Nana, do NOT underestimate Popo. At times, he actually seems better than the two combined. Though his damage dealing is cut almost by half, his knockback isn't much weaker.* If he KOs you, he CAN chain grab > d-smash you, giving him/them a huge advantage.

2.) Oh my... I just discovered a 100% combo to Fox...


*Just a thought, when both climbers are together, does Nana decrease their knockback since Nana's attacks deal less damage?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

ok so my numbering was off, my bad mmk?

anyway iceblocks crap all over blaster shots still.if they're hanging around shotting them from too far then by all means shoot away lol

i think RC is the better CP cause you have to move more often, and its possible for Nana to sd herself.

@Galanoth
i think some people get lazy when popo is by himself, making him possibly apppear more formidable than he really is. he can still be tough, any good IC will know how to work alone.

@Shinttaru
Hai!!!! welcome to fox boards

 

[M@v]

This is one of fox's hardest matchups IMO and i would not put it as any better for fox than 85:15 in favor of ICs

Whoah....thats really high....I have never played an IC on my skill level, so I cant tell you an accurate ratio from experience.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

thats too close to Pika, i don't think they should be that hard. sure Fox doesn't have the easiest of time separating them, but the **** comes from CG, not completely shutting down our everything.

 

[Galanoth7395]

This is one of fox's hardest matchups IMO and i would not put it as any better for fox than 85:15 in favor of ICs

Whoah....thats really high....I have never played an IC on my skill level, so I cant tell you an accurate ratio from experience.

I've gotta agree with that, if not 80:20. Anyways, about that 100% combo...

1.) Popo CGs with d-throw to 42%. 42%...
2.) Popo d-throws again. At the same time, Nana short hops > fair to put you back on the ground. 60%...
3.) Both d-smash. If done correctly, 98%-100%.

That's why I agree.

 

[Zhamy]

85:15 is harsh, and I don't think it's that bad at all.

I agree with all of scotu's points, just not his numbers.

 

[Galanoth7395]

85:15 is harsh, and I don't think it's that bad at all.

I agree with all of scotu's points, just not his numbers.

Again, the 100% combo. It's worse than Pika's CG.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

well...

pika has a 0-80
IC have like 20-something... 0-deaths, and its as easy to f-throw chain fox almost like bowser(the buffered f-throw wont work though)

i kinda wanna say 20:80 IC, scince theyre grabbing range is as short(or shorter) as pika's and is far more dangerous.

 

[Shintarru]

Well I say 70-30 IC

 

[Zhamy]

i kinda wanna say 20:80 IC, scince theyre grabbing range is as short(or shorter) as pika's and is far more dangerous.

If you base it solely off the grab, then you might as well say ICs have a good matchup against everyone.

Considering the other stuff that's been brought up, though, I'm thinking 70:30 ICs.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

If you base it solely off the grab, then you might as well say ICs have a good matchup against everyone.

Considering the other stuff that's been brought up, though, I'm thinking 70:30 ICs.

its not solely off the grab, it was merely a comparison to pikas grab(scince thats pretty much why pika is a 10:90)ICs have more approach options than fox, which makes this as bad as pika(just not as bad scince they dont completly outprioritize you)

 

[Zhamy]

its not solely off the grab, it was merely a comparison to pikas grab(scince thats pretty much why pika is a 10:90)ICs have more approach options than fox, which makes this as bad as pika(just not as bad scince they dont completly outprioritize you)

Well, the match becomes drastically easier (not easy, though) once Nana is gone. That's what's really keeping this matchup from being obscene ****.

 

[Galanoth7395]

Well, the match becomes drastically easier (not easy, though) once Nana is gone. That's what's really keeping this matchup from being obscene ****.

Chances are, with 100% and 0%-death combos, you won't survive to kill Nana.
20:80, IC's favor
But with :flame:FLAMEDASH:flame:, 95:05

 

[Shintarru]

Looks like i'll need to find out what flame dash is to find the joke funny >.>

EDIT: Ah I get it now lol.

 

[SCOTU]

IC's have almost as much going for them as Pika does, except they lose their infinite ability after a nana KO, but you can't Dair combo them well.

As for "basing it off the grab, ICs have a good matchup against everyone", Fox is easier to grab than many characters since he doesn't have anything that can outspace a shield on hit (read: if he hits a shield, he gets grabbed. period.)

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i thougbht sheik was the easiest to beat up w/ the IC. but i can see how Fox is hurt so badly too.

 

[gantrain05]

IC's have almost as much going for them as Pika does, except they lose their infinite ability after a nana KO, but you can't Dair combo them well.

As for "basing it off the grab, ICs have a good matchup against everyone", Fox is easier to grab than many characters since he doesn't have anything that can outspace a shield on hit (read: if he hits a shield, he gets grabbed. period.)

he can space a Bair into a shield and not get punished, it can be autocancelled when he hits the ground and actually has a decent range to it, but im probably the only crazy person to use it as an approach/shield poke/spacing move lol.

 

[SCOTU]

ok fine. he has one attack that requires really tight spacing that you're probably just going to get wrecked out of anyways. He's still owned by the IC shield

 

[NinjaFoxX]

i suggest changing the front page picture for ICs to this


also, were pretty much fuked on this matchup, next please

 

[Lightning93]

Lol good stuff... I really didn't have to say much cause I knew were this was going. I agree it's around 30:70 - 20:80 because cg *****, you get punished because your approaches are limited, but you still have a fair chance if you play smart. (REALLY SMART.)

Not that I care about match-ups anymore. Nothing can beat me now that I am an official master of the FLAMEDASH!

Oh and welcome Shintarru! Enjoy you're stay!

EDIT: Does anybody here have any mod abilities on allisbrawl.com? 'Cause if you do you should totally look into the making of the FLAMEDASH MASTER badge.

 

[Fenrir VII]

As for "basing it off the grab, ICs have a good matchup against everyone", Fox is easier to grab than many characters since he doesn't have anything that can outspace a shield on hit (read: if he hits a shield, he gets grabbed. period.)

Oh nah, I disagree with this. First of all, straight on, Fox has bair, ftilt, dtilt, utilt, and fair that have decent zoning capabilities that can hit a shield without being grabbed. the exception is fair, which I don't believe actually hits the shield, but still pressures it....assuming pretty good spacing on all these attacks, but it's not THAT tight... not that hard to pull off.

Outside of that, why would Fox only attack from the front anyway? and ICs simply don't have much of anything fast enough to hit you if you hit their shield behind it. Add that to the fact that Fox's vertical aerial mobility is amazing due to shine spikes and fast fall, and it is pretty easy for Fox to get behind them anyway.

If you hit an utilt, you can land a couple of them. If you are lucky, Popo will manage to jump out, but Nana will still be trapped. If you don't get that one, the utilt dair actually works quite well, as they can't shield it... so Basically, utilt LEADS to separating them, rather than separating them alone.

My main point is that Fox is one of the best at separating them and KEEPING them apart.. not to mention he gimps Nana hard. Gimping nana should be a priority over attacking Popo when they are separated simply because it's much easier and helps the match a LOT.


When we're bringing up the Pika matchup, it's important to say that the match is in the rat's favor even without the CG. The CG is ridiculously easy to pull off (and hence a mediocre pika is at an advantage against a GOOD fox.), andPika is faster and more elusive, so landing a grab is MUCH easier than with ICs.

I'll agree that Fox's lack of a sword makes him a worse target against the ICs, but the CG alone shouldn't be the sole deciding factor.

I'm not sure how the ICs are better at approaching than Fox is.. but that's just me...

 

[Conviction]

What to do?

Now offically said form SBR that Metaknight is best character in the game.
Thus I think should rediscuss him go really in depth I'm really depth try find anything to level this match-up.

P.S. Would FLAMEDASH help us?

 

[Face124]

Why not even try edgegaurd MK? It will add some percent, and I read a quote by Sadaharu Inui saying that the reason MK wasn't banned was because he is somewhat gimpable.

 

[Conviction]

Why not even try edgegaurd MK? It will add some percent, and I read a quote by Sadaharu Inui saying that the reason MK wasn't banned was because he is somewhat gimpable.

With that we should continue and find weaknesses.

P.S. Sorry if IC discusion is going still.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

MK gimpable? lol barely.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Can we, as a community, take everything Inui says to be a fallacy? I think it would better everyone involved...

I don't feel the IC thing was resolved yet, though. : /

 

[JigglyZelda003]

oh yeah ICs....... well they do seem hard and Fox tilts can space somewhat due to their limited grab range, but doesn't that cause a little bit more after lag if you hit both ICs shield like Dair does?

 

[Toronto Joe]

i just played Ambrose for a couple hours and i must say, fox getting ***** in the matchup really depends on stage choice, for neutral stages i found BF the best, and as a counter pick Brinstar was great...i still see the matchup as 80-20, its definitely harder for Fox vs ICs then Pika

even if you take out 1 ice climber the other can still dthrow cg to fsmash for a nice 60-70%
bair is great if you know how to use it properly
dsmash to seperate them
utilt is good but be smart about it, dont use dair to utilt though!
i cant stress enough how stupid it is to use dair vs the ICs, its too risky to take the chance, your going to end up shield grabbed and that means your losing a stock

fox isnt a reliable option to be used vs ICs in a tourney, your much better off using a different character who can space them out easier and can avoid the cg without not approaching.....i will never use Fox vs ICs

All of our matches where i wasnt ***** went over 3mins so i couldnt save anything, hopefully next time ill have something

 

[Fenrir VII]

i just played Ambrose for a couple hours and i must say, fox getting ***** in the matchup really depends on stage choice, for neutral stages i found BF the best, and as a counter pick Brinstar was great...i still see the matchup as 80-20, its definitely harder for Fox vs ICs then Pika

This I don't get... Pika has a much more legitimate chance of landing a grab, and better ways to do so, save the ICs double shield lag.. but that would be the Fox player's fault, and therefore shouldn't factor in... : /

even if you take out 1 ice climber the other can still dthrow cg to fsmash for a nice 60-70%

60-70? I could have sworn I saw 45% earlier...I guess with the fsmash, if that part combos..

bair is great if you know how to use it properly
dsmash to seperate them

Yeah, it works, but I don't know that the risk of using Dsmash is really worth it when they are together... : /

utilt is good but be smart about it, dont use dair to utilt though!
i cant stress enough how stupid it is to use dair vs the ICs, its too risky to take the chance, your going to end up shield grabbed and that means your losing a stock

Now see, this isn't exactly correct. It's fine to use dair and land behind their shield... just don't SH Dair. *shrug*... it's not like Dair is taken away... just SH Dair approach, which I hope you're not using anyway...

fox isnt a reliable option to be used vs ICs in a tourney, your much better off using a different character who can space them out easier and can avoid the cg without not approaching.....i will never use Fox vs ICs

This is fair... there are other chars with better options...I don't know that Fox is completely out here, but I agree with that much.

All of our matches where i wasnt ***** went over 3mins so i couldnt save anything, hopefully next time ill have something

I'm actually thinking this will be a 70-30... because you CAN do stuff to them... I mean, sure, it's unlikely that you won't get grabbed, but I can't see it being as bad as PIka for several reasons...

First, I don't believe they beat Fox without the CG... just don't.
Second, I don't think they are better or even the same as Pika at landing the grab... Pika is far too mobile here... and he beats Fox in other ways...

I just don't give in that this is in wtf impossible territory, unless you are attracted to attacking shield from the front for some reason.

 

[KheldarVII]

I'd give the ICs either even or slightly higher than Sheik's matchup. Something like 2:8 or 15:85.

 

[Zhamy]

Okay, I played an IC main yesterday, and I'm going to have to say that this is a 75:25 or harder matchup.

It's not even the grab, it's just that they outgay Fox that really gives them the extra edge. Basically everything that Fox does, the ICs have an answer to. Except...laser spam and maybe Dair->Dsmash, which they don't have reliable answers to.

Granted, it's not complete **** because the ICs still have to do a bit of guessing, but Fox will be working non-stop.

 

[Shintarru]

I played a decent IC main today. =(

I got sheild grabbed like a *****. lol But I learned that only a handful of fox's moves can be used safely to sheild pressure. I could easily get in between the ICs with a dair>dsmash and seperate them. When I get behind them or in between them u-tilt is a good damage builder that seperates them. Laser spam is too good against the IC.

Well idk if this helps but thats what I experienced today. I still say 70-30 IC

 

[Lightning93]

Wait what? I thought Metaknight was already the best character in the game. Anyways, he is definitely not one of the worst match-ups for Fox. He falls for up-tilt combos very easily, and your up-smash can beat many of his aerial approaches. A well placed d-air and n-air helps you very much against him and he doesn't have too much range to boot. Heck, most of your SH aerials are great here except for f-air of course, that should be used for juggling in the air. Although he is very quick in his moves, you still have the option to run around him and wait for an opportunity. It's true that Fox can gimp Metaknight, like all characters, but I wouldn't suggest it unless you immediately go in for it. Double shine spikes are great to pull off here, but be sure he already used at least two of his jumps, and you won't be stage spike or knocked back by his up-b. Metaknight can recover from a d-smash, in which the gimp comes in, but because of his lighter than average weight he still dies fairly quickly from an f- or up-smash. Please note any advantages he may have over us so we can discuss, which I think is his grab range to follow ups, but I recall the only character I three stocked at a tournament was a MK. It could have just been him, but he seemed to have the same amount of skill as the Kirby I played later that day, who I barely beat.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

iceblocks flip off lasers usually.

anyway what stage do you guys think is best fighting them on? i was thinking RC.

and are we agreeing on 70:30, 75:25, or 80:20 for ICs?

 

[Shintarru]

Brinstar and RC are good cps. (stages like that stop cg)

 

[Galanoth7395]

Well, some of us are arguing 20:80, some of us are arguing 30:70.

Yesterday I asked on the Ice Climber boards why they weren't Top Tier. They said smashers were adapting to their grabs and avoiding them, crushing the part of them that could put them up there. On top of that, a few stages aren't very good for chain grabbing for them. If the Fox player plays smart, counterpicks the right stages, spot dodges in close range combat, and uses FLAMEDASH, I figure Foxy stands a chance.

30:70, Ice Climber's favor. I think we've discussed them enough, let's leave it to Pgh now.

 

[Shintarru]

I think we should cover all the characters before going back to mk.

 

[Galanoth7395]

Yeah, like Shin said: lets discuss IC, not MK. Only post about him if you find some uber strategy vs him. When all the match-ups are finished, then we can talk about any character we want to.

Btw, I was stupid yesterday when I posted about that 100% combo. I "discovered" it in Training Mode, where Stale-Move-Negation is missing. I now resent Training Mode

One more thing: shotu-Smash Researcher?? As in a Smash Lab member!?!??!?!?!?!

EDIT: The awesomeness of FLAMEDASH is so uber, I made an article on Smashwiki on it!!!!!!!!!
http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Flamedash

 

[M@v]

Yeah, like Shin said: lets discuss IC, not MK. Only post about him if you find some uber strategy vs him. When all the match-ups are finished, then we can talk about any character we want to.

Btw, I was stupid yesterday when I posted about that 100% combo. I "discovered" it in Training Mode, where Stale-Move-Negation is missing. I now resent Training Mode

One more thing: shotu-Smash Researcher?? As in a Smash Lab member!?!??!?!?!?!

so is xiivi