Fox Match-Up General Discussion

[FadedImage]

Can we agree on 65:35 or something already?

lol, wasn't that the ratio I put in my first post?

no need to try and be stuffy about it, just trying to spread some knowledge about ZSS so you guys know how to handle her, isn't that the point of a match-up thread? To find the best way to exploit your advantages and overcome your disadvantages?

*shrugs*

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yes it is and i'd like to know as much as possible lol. but im in agreement for 35:65 Zamus. this is an off week for our foxs, exams have killed most of our brain cells too.

 

[Zhamy]

I'm all for heated discussions, but I'm suggesting everyone take a chill pill before we continue.

You know. Just in case.

 

[Lightning93]

All I have as Chem tomorrow yay! I've actually been calm the whole time, heated discussion is very interesting and provides much knowledge, but I just can't flame people to harshly. If someone doesn't know what they're talking about I kindly ask them to reconsider their views and to think it out more thoroughly, but whatever. You guys don't care, it's a match-up board after all, and these things will happen.

You sure we aren't giving too much of an advantage to Fox, because although we can combo really well, it's not exactly easy to stay in the game. What did we put it at 65:35? You guys really think ZSS is only as hard as Kirby and Weegee? I mean Kirbys I have a lot less trouble with due to their slow horizontal movement and light weight., and at least Luigi can't chain you so badly... I dunno...

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Kirby can also chain with a throw, but idk. we could put it at 30:70 cause we can't forget Dsmash and the fact shes kinda like Fox w/ Boobs and a whip.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I don't mean to be a **** here (well, maybe I do). But you just said a whole lot of **** that doesn't make any sense.

Here we go... I'll be civil

I read a lot of nonsense about the d-smash being punishable (it's not, it counts as a projectile, as such, if it hits, we don't get hitlag, you do, end of story). Other crap about d-air eating u-smash (which hits through GaW's key). Other garbage about ZSS's lack of kill moves (lol, we've got 5, you've got 2) or their predictability (again, more options, and they're all considerably fast).

Dsmash, if shielded with a slide, is grabbable.. And the person who I was originally responding to mention perfect shiedling, which definitely makes it punishable...

I really don't care about GW's key not getting through it. that is completely irrelevant here, and the very fact that you even bring it up makes me wonder how much you actually know about FOX... this is not the GW board. I can consistently go through every up move from the groun other than utilt with Dair... I know that one.

And I'm sorry, I meant lack of good kill moves. I mentioned certain ones that you had... I distinctly said side-B, Bair, Uair, and flipstool kick... so there's four of them. It's not the number that you have, it's how applicable in a match they are. Fox has two? again, you prove that you don't know him.. if you completely disregard the Bair of Fox, then you miss something huge... My point is that Fox can kill ZSS about 20-30% earlier than she can, in a reasonable scenario... And ZSS's kill moves are mostly telegraphed, so they aren't THAT hard to predict and avoid. If Fox hits you with a DAIR... or you hit his SHIELD above 90%, ZSS dies, guaranteed...and that is from ONE of his kill moves... the other fill in other gaps. I don't realy see how she has anything like that, or how you could POSSIBLY argue that she can kill him better than vice versa.

Some bull**** about Fox getting around our side-b easily, umm how is Fox any different from every other character in the game that makes him capable of completely transcending the side-b? And before you go into some shpiel about roll punishing, realize that that is our goal. We want to force you, into roll/jumping TOWARDS US, into our varied punishments, because side-b has NO (zero, zilch, nadda) landing lag. Not to mention ZSS isn't going to be throwing the sweetspot behind you, so I doubt you'll be able to reach her with one roll.

The fact remains that her side B is telegraphed early, a bit slow to deploy, mostly useless in a close range after the initial deployment, and a bit slow to come back. It doesn't take lightning reflexes to respond to it. And what does Fox have here? utilt... it comes right out of the roll, has massive priority, good backwards range, and will combo you... Not to mention the fact taht Fox is one of the fastest characters in the game, with one of the best punishment games in the game... to use a slower, predictable move against him is not usually the best idea. If the ZSS spaces it perfectly.. you can still get a roll in to a grab.

Of course, we're talking tourney level skill here (and before you start calling me out, I'll drop Champ's name: that's the Fox I play most against). Again, I apologize for the flame, but you really have no idea what you are talking about.

I'm fully up to hear opinions from other people here... and I was never the one to start flames here... I don't plan to flame at all. I don't believe you know too much about Fox here, as given by certain things you posted (using GW as an example instead of Fox, listing 2 kill moves, etc), but it does help to have a second side.

As for the other Foxies:

A lot of ZSS's anti-air is quick, so shine stalling will work if timed really well (against u-smash and up-b). BUUUT, don't rely on it, because we may just jump right into you and u-air you out of the shine (our jump is suuuper fast, so you probably won't have time to drop the shine once you've started it), so you'll have to mindgames between straight d-air and stalling to d-air when coming from above, stay unpredictable.

The point about the laser debate is this: we WILL take damage, however, you will have to react to our side-b somehow, whether it's retreating to shoot more lasers, or coming at us. If you keep retreating, there's only so much stage before you run out and have to do something to get past us, whether it's phantasm/jump/roll what have you, and we'll be waiting! d:

sigh... did you seriously just name drop champ? lol

Also, for the record, 65-35 to 60-40 is okay with me...but JUST because of the Dsmash chain. without that, it goes to Fox for me.

 

[Fenrir VII]

You sure we aren't giving too much of an advantage to Fox, because although we can combo really well, it's not exactly easy to stay in the game. What did we put it at 65:35? You guys really think ZSS is only as hard as Kirby and Weegee? I mean Kirbys I have a lot less trouble with due to their slow horizontal movement and light weight., and at least Luigi can't chain you so badly... I dunno...

Sorry for the double post.. I fail at smashboards, but I wanted to address this.

Yes, I do think it's a better match for Fox than either Kirby or WeeG. I have a history of being really bad against Kirby... so maybe I shouldn't talk. I personally believe Luigi is one of the worst matches for Fox.

I really just think ZSS has one fallback in the Dsmash chain... and assuming a Fox can avoid it, he wins the match. Naturally, I can't assume that the Fox will always avoid it, but at the same time, the ZSS cannot assume that she will always hit it. Therefore, the threat puts this in her advantage, but not omgrape as it was listed before.

Of course this is just my opinion, but I saw your post, and I wanted to respond to it.

 

[Lightning93]

I understand your point, Kirby has a much easier time CG-ing you and Luigi is just plain hard to combo. ZSS has neither of these aspects to her play-style, such as that she is combo-able, light, and needs to work a bit more to trap Fox within a d-smash chain. The first characters to completely pwn me though were Shiek, ZSS, and ROB, so I'm probably speaking from personal memories when I say ZSS seems like a harder match.

Anyways, I think we addressed most of our main concerns, is any able to participate in the DK tourney besides me and jiggly? I heard you wanted to join as well Fenrir, we need 2 more. I already played Bigfoot, we were of equal level, so I think if we just put pressure using speed it will go along nicely. Just don't get hit lol. (Like your avatar btw Jiggly lol santa.)

 

[Fenrir VII]

I understand your point, Kirby has a much easier time CG-ing you and Luigi is just plain hard to combo. ZSS has neither of these aspects to her play-style, such as that she is combo-able, light, and needs to work a bit more to trap Fox within a d-smash chain. The first characters to completely pwn me though were Shiek, ZSS, and ROB, so I'm probably speaking from personal memories when I say ZSS seems like a harder match.

Anyways, I think we addressed most of our main concerns, is any able to participate in the DK tourney besides me and jiggly? I heard you wanted to join as well Fenrir, we need 2 more. I already played Bigfoot, we were of equal level, so I think if we just put pressure using speed it will go along nicely. Just don't get hit lol. (Like your avatar btw Jiggly lol santa.)

Exactly. Kirby has a stupid grab game mixed with small target and good grab... three pluses for him... not to mention his lasting spike in dair that makes it a bit tricky to get back. not impossible, hes just a pain.

Luigi just seems to be really good against Fox. hard to approach, hard to combo. he comboes you, etc... I really dislike those two... so that's why I responded to it... two of the tougher matches Fox has.

I kinda wanted to, yeah, but i'm going on a trip to CO over that week, so I simply won't be able to join that. I don't have much time for wifi anyway... not to mention I SUCK with lag. lol. You guys have A6M.. he'll probably take any challengers by himself. *shrug* not to even mention the other better Foxes interested. should do fine.

I say DK is REALLY even... personally. He has fast powerful kill moves... otherwise, it'd be in Fox's favor... you just die so quickly that it's kinda nuts. Dair or Nair his recovery... never try to JUST shine it.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

thanks light lol. Meno just hijacked my avatar and editied it though.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

70/30 in zero suits favor. 60/40 zero suits favor without the d-smash chain.

 

[Fenrir VII]

70/30 in zero suits favor. 60/40 zero suits favor without the d-smash chain.

Lol. nice write-up...

I'd seriously love to know how she would have ANY advantage without the chain...

 

[NeoZero]

Could anyone be kind enough to sort of summarize whats been said so far so I can post it on the ZSS and try to get them to discuss this farther? More people = more discussion!

I suck at recapping and don't know the matchup well enough do even want to attempt it.

 

[Conviction]

I understand your point, Kirby has a much easier time CG-ing you and Luigi is just plain hard to combo. ZSS has neither of these aspects to her play-style, such as that she is combo-able, light, and needs to work a bit more to trap Fox within a d-smash chain. The first characters to completely pwn me though were Shiek, ZSS, and ROB, so I'm probably speaking from personal memories when I say ZSS seems like a harder match.

Anyways, I think we addressed most of our main concerns, is any able to participate in the DK tourney besides me and jiggly? I heard you wanted to join as well Fenrir, we need 2 more. I already played Bigfoot, we were of equal level, so I think if we just put pressure using speed it will go along nicely. Just don't get hit lol. (Like your avatar btw Jiggly lol santa.)

I Joined >.>.... and I'll be good and ready too.
I'll do some online warm-ups with you this weekend or next week since I spent so much time offline pratice.

 

[Zhamy]

Alright, so I think we have enough info to trudge through and get a decent writeup.

Which I will not be doing because finals are still destroying me.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

70/30 in zero suits favor. 60/40 zero suits favor without the d-smash chain.

+1 post count....

100:0 Fox against everyone. Because Fox is the best. =3

 

[SmashBrother2008]

+1 post count....

OVER 9000!:0 Fox against everyone. Because Fox is the best. =3

it has been fix'd

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Could anyone be kind enough to sort of summarize whats been said so far so I can post it on the ZSS and try to get them to discuss this farther? More people = more discussion!

I suck at recapping and don't know the matchup well enough do even want to attempt it.

im sure M@v will do a recap soon, as long as his brain is working.

 

[M@v]

Tomorrow evening. i spent the last hour making a new sig and santa hatting my avatar, because the PSU comps have photoshop, and im leaving for break tomorrow...after my 8AM chem final -_-. now if youll excuse me, I have to go cram for 2-3 more hours.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

gl cramming M@v and goodluck

 

[Lightning93]

My last final was today, but it completely ***** me at the end. I felt so violated.

I wanna PS my avvy too, but I don't want to do anything else besides relax and do nothing for the rest of the week.

@ Iblis/honey hit the Fox Force chat, me and monkey should try to show up so we can all practice some more. Same goes for you guys here, it used to be a great place to hang out, but now it's kind of dead...

Here's the link anyways: http://foxforce.ning.com/page/page/show?id=2304569:Page:127

 

[M@v]

AAAAHHHHHHHH chemistry! so much stuff, so little time ;_:

 

[Lightning93]

Lol thanks to Jiggly and Zhammy for coming down, it was a lot of fun!

 

[FadedImage]

Dsmash, if shielded with a slide, is grabbable.. And the person who I was originally responding to mention perfect shiedling, which definitely makes it punishable...

No, it's not. You say I don't know about Fox, but you refuse to listen to a very simple fact. D-smash creates shieldstun on the character it hits, however, it causes NO LAG to ZSS because it counts AS A PROJECTILE. You WILL NOT be able to grab before we can jab you. FACE IT.

I really don't care about GW's key not getting through it. that is completely irrelevant here, and the very fact that you even bring it up makes me wonder how much you actually know about FOX... this is not the GW board. I can consistently go through every up move from the groun other than utilt with Dair... I know that one.

it's not completely irrelevant, the fact is, u-smash hits through a highly disjointed attack like GaW's key, how does Fox's not so disjointed d-air magically hit through it? You have to rely on the fact that Fox's hitboxes come out at all the same times as ZSS's u-smash. I would LOVE to see you do this on a consistent basis, because I've never seen it happen outside of training mode (and even then it happened extremely rarely).

And I'm sorry, I meant lack of good kill moves. I mentioned certain ones that you had... I distinctly said side-B, Bair, Uair, and flipstool kick... so there's four of them. It's not the number that you have, it's how applicable in a match they are. Fox has two? again, you prove that you don't know him.. if you completely disregard the Bair of Fox, then you miss something huge... My point is that Fox can kill ZSS about 20-30% earlier than she can, in a reasonable scenario... And ZSS's kill moves are mostly telegraphed, so they aren't THAT hard to predict and avoid. If Fox hits you with a DAIR... or you hit his SHIELD above 90%, ZSS dies, guaranteed...and that is from ONE of his kill moves... the other fill in other gaps. I don't realy see how she has anything like that, or how you could POSSIBLY argue that she can kill him better than vice versa.

lolol, you say our b-air is telegraphed (8 frames) but your b-air is a reliable kill move? Let's go through ZSS's kill moves shall we?

• Side-B - only for revenge kills, used for distance punishment, if you think you'll never get hit by one, you're an idiot.
• B-Air - easily our best, comes out in 8 frames and has ridiculously good knockback. Huge range, so we'll easily hit with it from outside any of your attacks.
• U-Air - not necessarily the best kill move, since it'll probably be decayed, but comes out in 4 frames, and we can hit you with it close to the ceiling since we can jump so high.
• Flipkick - unreliable as a kill move on its own, but very potent when used to punish recoveries.
• D-Smash - comes out in 20 frames (rather slow) but covers a huge ground area in front of ZSS, also, it's unpunishable on shield contact. (This should be considered a kill move, since at high percent, it guarantees any of our other kill moves)

ZSS relies on B-Air and D-Smash for kills, Side-B for revenge kills. U-Air as an extra option.
As for Fox, you have U-Smash and D-Smash for reliable kills, B-Air for the hope I hit with it kills.

And no, if we hit your shield you can't just u-smash, not only will we most likely be far away (side-b), but we'll probably have no lag, since pretty much nothing ZSS does has lag (especially at short range). Also, you act like I know nothing about Fox, but I know that you can SDI out of Fox's dair to avoid the usmash combo.

other theorycraft

I'm telling you, the whole match-up doesn't just consist of you rolling into us and then winning. Of course it's gonna happen where a ZSS will mess up the spacing, but you're gonna get punished more often then we do.

and yeah, I name dropped Champ, he's a **** good Fox who I've played with tons. Name a ZSS you've played on a consistent basis that gives you all this match-up knowledge, because from what you're saying, it sounds like you don't know much about it.

 

[Zhamy]

Guys, Fox's new AT, Flamedash, totally makes this match 90:10 in favor of Fox.

Also, after testing, Dsmash is not punishable. Stupid projectile hitbox.

 

[SCOTU]

i think Japanese History Exam has an 80:20 against me...

 

[Conviction]

No, it's not. You say I don't know about Fox, but you refuse to listen to a very simple fact. D-smash creates shieldstun on the character it hits, however, it causes NO LAG to ZSS because it counts AS A PROJECTILE. You WILL NOT be able to grab before we can jab you. FACE IT.



it's not completely irrelevant, the fact is, u-smash hits through a highly disjointed attack like GaW's key, how does Fox's not so disjointed d-air magically hit through it? You have to rely on the fact that Fox's hitboxes come out at all the same times as ZSS's u-smash. I would LOVE to see you do this on a consistent basis, because I've never seen it happen outside of training mode (and even then it happened extremely rarely).



lolol, you say our b-air is telegraphed (8 frames) but your b-air is a reliable kill move? Let's go through ZSS's kill moves shall we?

• Side-B - only for revenge kills, used for distance punishment, if you think you'll never get hit by one, you're an idiot.
• B-Air - easily our best, comes out in 8 frames and has ridiculously good knockback. Huge range, so we'll easily hit with it from outside any of your attacks.
• U-Air - not necessarily the best kill move, since it'll probably be decayed, but comes out in 4 frames, and we can hit you with it close to the ceiling since we can jump so high.
• Flipkick - unreliable as a kill move on its own, but very potent when used to punish recoveries.
• D-Smash - comes out in 20 frames (rather slow) but covers a huge ground area in front of ZSS, also, it's unpunishable on shield contact. (This should be considered a kill move, since at high percent, it guarantees any of our other kill moves)

ZSS relies on B-Air and D-Smash for kills, Side-B for revenge kills. U-Air as an extra option.
As for Fox, you have U-Smash and D-Smash for reliable kills, B-Air for the hope I hit with it kills.

And no, if we hit your shield you can't just u-smash, not only will we most likely be far away (side-b), but we'll probably have no lag, since pretty much nothing ZSS does has lag (especially at short range). Also, you act like I know nothing about Fox, but I know that you can SDI out of Fox's dair to avoid the usmash combo.



I'm telling you, the whole match-up doesn't just consist of you rolling into us and then winning. Of course it's gonna happen where a ZSS will mess up the spacing, but you're gonna get punished more often then we do.

and yeah, I name dropped Champ, he's a **** good Fox who I've played with tons. Name a ZSS you've played on a consistent basis that gives you all this match-up knowledge, because from what you're saying, it sounds like you don't know much about it.

Did you know a jc cancels shield lag.

 

[Fenrir VII]

No, it's not. You say I don't know about Fox, but you refuse to listen to a very simple fact. D-smash creates shieldstun on the character it hits, however, it causes NO LAG to ZSS because it counts AS A PROJECTILE. You WILL NOT be able to grab before we can jab you. FACE IT.

and if you try for the jab afterward, we can JC usmash it and other situational crap like that... I can agree that it has projectile hitlag... so it is good. Again, I was responding to the perfect shield thing. And feel free to correct me if I'm wrong (this whole topic is a very small point, so nitpicking it here seems useless anyway), but you can JC cancel shield lag...Iblis posted it after I already thought that... and if you can JC it, then the usmash works against your jab... *shrug*

it's not completely irrelevant, the fact is, u-smash hits through a highly disjointed attack like GaW's key, how does Fox's not so disjointed d-air magically hit through it? You have to rely on the fact that Fox's hitboxes come out at all the same times as ZSS's u-smash. I would LOVE to see you do this on a consistent basis, because I've never seen it happen outside of training mode (and even then it happened extremely rarely).

It's irrelevant. GW's key =/= Fox's dair. I don't care if you consider it better, worse, etc... fact is, I know next to nothing about the mechanics of his key... *shrug* I don't need to. I don't know if it beats your up B, or MK's tornado, or Olimar's usmash, etc. And I really don't care. You using "well, it beats this other move" as a counterpoint to how it beats the move I am saying doesn't matter. I'd love to show you my doing it consistently... don't have it on a video or anything... It just works. And why were you in training mode with this? again... don't base analysis on other characters...

lolol, you say our b-air is telegraphed (8 frames) but your b-air is a reliable kill move? Let's go through ZSS's kill moves shall we?

You're making a point for me that I didn't make. Your Bair is more useful than ours.. that's given. I also mentioned that it is your best kill move, but it's REALLY obvious, if it is your only real kill move here. Yes you can RAR and such, but there are very specific circumstances in which you can really use it, and as such, it doesn't compare to a Fox usmash... Usmash can be performed out of shield, or out of a Dair / weak Nair at higher %s.

• Side-B - only for revenge kills, used for distance punishment, if you think you'll never get hit by one, you're an idiot.
  
  Assuming incredible play, I could see Fox not getting hit by it, but yes...it's going to hit some in a match... a handful of times, maybe.
  
• B-Air - easily our best, comes out in 8 frames and has ridiculously good knockback. Huge range, so we'll easily hit with it from outside any of your attacks.
• U-Air - not necessarily the best kill move, since it'll probably be decayed, but comes out in 4 frames, and we can hit you with it close to the ceiling since we can jump so high.
• Flipkick - unreliable as a kill move on its own, but very potent when used to punish recoveries.
• D-Smash - comes out in 20 frames (rather slow) but covers a huge ground area in front of ZSS, also, it's unpunishable on shield contact. (This should be considered a kill move, since at high percent, it guarantees any of our other kill moves)

Ah. you list Dsmash too.. other than that, I listed all of those already... : / Realize this, though...all of your kill moves are used in certain situations only.
SideB has its obvious uses... but a long startup time, so unless the Fox is under incredible hitstun already, I can't see it being reliable... I do think it'll hit some, but not a LOT.
Bair is your best, yeah... but it has a BACKWARDS hit box. I realize this isn't THAT big of a deal, but when your best kill move is backwards aerial, it limits how useful it can be here...and makes it applicable for certain circumstances. I can agree it's a good kill move, though.
Uair is VERY situational here... even you touched on that.
Flipkick should almost never connect, if the Fox knows the match at ALL
Dsmash is your other best, but again, not THAT hard to avoid with proper play...

My point is, while you have a lot of them...and it's a lot to think about. it's really not THAT hard to predict them all and avoid each one.
Fox has one of the most useful kill moves in the game in Usmash, a very good setup in Dsmash, Killing Bair and Uair. Usmash is a move that can be executed from a dash, shield, or out of at least two combos at higher %s...I can't see how you are trying to argue that ZSS is a better killer. lol

ZSS relies on B-Air and D-Smash for kills, Side-B for revenge kills. U-Air as an extra option.
As for Fox, you have U-Smash and D-Smash for reliable kills, B-Air for the hope I hit with it kills.

"hope I hit with it"? haha nice one. Again, you mistake the number of kills for actual good killing options... of which you have two. Dsmash and Bair... maybe throw in uair. Side-B is decent, but nothing nearly as reliable as the others. Fox's two smashes alone are eeach better than what you listed...with the exception that ZSS's Bair might beat Fox's dsmash. I mean really, if you want to throw your uair in, in that use... then throw ours in too, because it does the same thing... Our Bair is an amazing short ranged walling tactic ... don't discount that... it's not unreliable here... I don't get where you get that.

And no, if we hit your shield you can't just u-smash, not only will we most likely be far away (side-b), but we'll probably have no lag, since pretty much nothing ZSS does has lag (especially at short range). Also, you act like I know nothing about Fox, but I know that you can SDI out of Fox's dair to avoid the usmash combo.

Sigh... in a normal situation, no you can't. You can SDI it quite well if you're in the air. if you're on the ground at high %s, you are sometimes able to SDI out of the last one or two hits of it... completely depending on how it's executed (if it's SH'ed...how late it is executed, etc). If you manage to SDI out of the usmash on the ground, a grab still works at least. If it's a full hop Dair, you can't SDI out of the usmash. And don't tell me that you'll have no lag, and therefore, can't be hit by Fox's usmash out of shield. To pull one of yours and bring another character into this.. shield usmash hits between MK's glide attack and Dsmash following.... and no, that's not against a scrub MK. Just using an example.... We can shield grab or usmash (one of them) any move you hit our shield with, if you are close enough, which most of your moves make you be close... of course shield usmash isn't going to work on Side B. lol

Don't get me wrong, I don't act like you know nothing about Fox... I blatantly say it.

I'm telling you, the whole match-up doesn't just consist of you rolling into us and then winning. Of course it's gonna happen where a ZSS will mess up the spacing, but you're gonna get punished more often then we do.

Now see, I disagree with the last sentence there. Of course I'm not saying to use a roll in every time. I simply listed it as a better way to get around Side B. The absolute best way is to just keep applying dash shield pressure so you almost never have room to use it. And when you do, we're either in a bad position for you can just punish, or roll in / jump / etc.

I'm gonna leave Champ out of this right now. I was wrong to do that. heh

 

[M@v]

i think Japanese History Exam has an 80:20 against me...

Chem had an 80:20 against me too. I got owwwwnnneeeedddd.


My dad, a.k.a my ride home, will be here soon, so Ill do a recap once Im back in Pittsburgh.

 

[NeoZero]

A few other things I'd like to have answered, mostly due to my curiosity. One of them pertaining to mav's (I think) comment on my previous post.

1. In responding to my post, you assume I would approach you from across FD. Now, I know that Fox has many more options when being approached, so I don't see why I should approach if I happened to be in that position. So let me ask it in another way: what would you do were I to just wait for you at the other end of the stage in a crawling animation, while your at the other side shooting your laser? Assume I'm content to wait in that crawling animation until I find an opening or some way of dealing you damage.

2. I don't really get why the whole dashing shield as a way to pressure someone. I'm curious as to why it's an effective counter to, apparently, everything ZSS can do on the ground. I mean, sure it probably has it's uses, but you're way too easily punished on a slipup, not to mention the fact that it should be easy enough to hit you before you shield with proper mindgames. Also, if you were to constantly pressure with dashing shields, our grab, which is normally not good for anything except the occasionnal mix up, would actually prove to be effective against such methods seeing as that it has more reach then any of your attacks. Our down-throw leads to some nice follow-ups and you can forward-throw chain an unsuspecting player a few times if they arn't expecting it. The latter option probably isn't the best thing you could do, but if you want mix-ups, its a decent one.

Of course, I'm sure I'll get my arse ripped off about 2 to the 18 power times in a matter of 2 hours (all of them concerning my last remark), but my curiosity forces me to post these things.

Thanks in advance.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

1. In responding to my post, you assume I would approach you from across FD. Now, I know that Fox has many more options when being approached, so I don't see why I should approach if I happened to be in that position. So let me ask it in another way: what would you do were I to just wait for you at the other end of the stage in a crawling animation, while your at the other side shooting your laser? Assume I'm content to wait in that crawling animation until I find an opening or some way of dealing you damage.

well i can keep shotting unless you have armor pieces to toss at me. and you might get called on stalling since im attacking trying to initiate confrontation. while your just crouching, we both might even get called out on it lol. if i get one hit and stalling isn't called i can time out off that one hit. its just a way to make you come to me somewhat rather than the other way around. i'd probably get bored shooting there all day, but thats just me.

even then, thanks to sideb and Zamus good horizontal air movement, you can probably just jump and sideb right into your range. avoiding all but like 2 shots.

2. I don't really get why the whole dashing shield as a way to pressure someone. I'm curious as to why it's an effective counter to, apparently, everything ZSS can do on the ground. I mean, sure it probably has it's uses, but you're way too easily punished on a slipup, not to mention the fact that it should be easy enough to hit you before you shield with proper mindgames. Also, if you were to constantly pressure with dashing shields, our grab, which is normally not good for anything except the occasionnal mix up, would actually prove to be effective against such methods seeing as that it has more reach then any of your attacks. Our down-throw leads to some nice follow-ups and you can forward-throw chain an unsuspecting player a few times if they arn't expecting it. The latter option probably isn't the best thing you could do, but if you want mix-ups, its a decent one.
Thanks in advance.

it makes fox slide very far, and close enough for almost anything most of the time, plus since we're shielding the only thing that can really touch us with is a grab. im sure not gonna approach with it all the time, especially if i feel you've caugh on and are going to go for a grab. i think its just mentioned often since its relatively a very safe way to approach if all other methods are being beat down. its a way to mixup approaching.

but its not perfect since im sure Dsmash can still push us back just a hair enough that your safe from direct retaliation.

 

[MRTW113]

For Link/Tink, it might be nice to add that you can't spam blaster against them, as their crouch negates it.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yeah it can, but if they sit and crouch all day i can just push them away, possibly off the stage lol. i like to blaster spam T/Links who just hide under crouching shield. >.>

 

[M@v]

summary time. Its going as 35:65


Don't be distracted by her looks. Zero Suit Samus has one move that makes your life difficult: Dsmash. Get hit by it once and you get robbed of a good chunk of percent. The Dsmash chain has its fallbacks however. Its easy to punish from above. Example: Say a Zss is starting a dsmash and you see it coming. Jump. Now your free to Dair. Some ZSS players might try to spam it over and over, punish them for it. Now when you come up against a smart Zss, your going to need to more than that. Zss has that whip. That whip got range, more than anything you got. Therefore, Approaching probably isnt the best idea in this matchup. Pump her blaster to make come close. Spacing is essential to staying out of the way of her whip, which is fsmash,upsmash, and side b. Her tilts are decent. Dsmash and her stunner serve as setups for her tilts.
Her recovery is a tether recovery. However, she is the best tether recovering character in the game. I cant stress how good the kick after her down b is. It stays out, got made priority and insane knockback. It also spikes when it first comes out.
How to fight her: Spam her to approach. Try staying airborne to minimize the risk of dsmash. Approach from the air at 45 degree angles, it is the blindspot in her whip's range. Your airgame beats hers; if you can get her airborne, keep her there. Her aerials are mainly meant to be shorthopped and used after stun setups. You can go for a gimp, but be ready for the down b kick. If you get caught in the dsmash chain, di 45 degress, away from the chain. Thats what seems to be most effective. Try jumping out that way as well if its at higher percents.


Next: Ice climbers

CG-spike is too good...and scary ;_;

 

[Lightning93]

Lol, I was afraid we were going to do these guys, I will start off with 3 obvious pieces of advice:

1. Make sure you are combo-ing the right ice climber. Otherwise, you're just not building damage.

2. Always try to kill the partner IC as fast as you can, it will make the rest of your job a lot easier, but if you already have the main in your clutches by all means finish him/her.

3. Tech everything and prepare to roll or shield, especially in this match-up. If you allow yourself to stay down you're setting yourself up for an ice-lock, or worse, a single down-b to alternating grab.

All I have to say is teamwork is an amazing thing. What is it with Brawl trying to instill values in us? I have more to say, but I will save the juicy stuff for later.

EDIT: Lol I forgot I made a video recently demonstrating their power for fun, here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6FVcJzTEsw

Don't allow yourself to get into something like this. It still abides the rule of only 3 alternating grabs at a time.

 

[M@v]

Also, whenever I fight IC's, I always try to split them up, and beat up one of them. Even if I kill the wrong one. Fighting just one is way easier then two. its actually real easy fighting just one...

I think this is 40:60 IC's but they have that killer cg to spike on a lot of people, so that might grow worse.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

whats an easy way to safely split them up? also what stage? i've never really fought the ICs with Fox.

 

[M@v]

whats an easy way to safely split them up? also what stage? i've never really fought the ICs with Fox.

If you can get a dsmash off between them, it sends each one in opposite directions. Dsmash can be risky though. You can also try grabbing one and throwing him/her away.

 

[Zhamy]

An Utilt chain, if done correctly, can separate the two, especially if they try to DI out of it. You have to be quick, though. Free damage AND a lone ice climber! Delicious!

 

[Fenrir VII]

First of all, Nana has her own hidden damage meter.. so doing damage to her is just as useful as doing damage to Popo...

Secondly, killing Nana should come as a priority to the Fox player. This is the same as from Melee. When you split the two, you should ALWAYS try to kill Nana, rather than Popo. Of course this seems stupid, as you might land a kill on Popo, which is indeed more valuable than a Nana kill... HOWEVER, assuming the IC player is smart, it will be MUCH harder to kill Popo than Nana... kill Nana is like killing a lvl 1 CPU. and you are Fox...a killing machine... just do it. Separate them, and Bair, dsmash, usmash, gimp, etc. Nana while Popo tries to get back to you to stop you.
This serves two purposes, really... the first is obvious, one IC is less deadly than two.
Secondly, When Popo tries to stop you from killing Nana, he generally will be rushing blindly in... allowing you to land hits, or even a quick kill on him. Stay aware of the situations. Once they are separated, Fox is very adept as a character at KEEPING them separated. Dsmash and bair, in particular, are very useful for this.

Popo still has a dthrow cg on Fox by himself... but it is simply not as good/deadly as the combined... and he is just much more limited without her... so your focus should be on her all the time.

SH approaches really aren't worth it here... FH works much better. FH and Nairing or bairing the back of their shield is pretty safe... and you can utilt trap them after it, so they'll have to roll away... and that's if it doesn't hit. Nana is sometimes slow to put up a shield or dodge... so a lot of stuff just works.

Grabs are actually quite useful... it's an instant way to split them up, and works against the IC's, who will generally shield a lot. It's really risky, though, as if they land a spot dodge, they get a grab, and you lose a stock. pivot grabs are pretty nice, as a way to avoid a dodge. If you land a grab, I would suggest down or uthrows... Bthrow is the best splitter, but turning your back on the other one is not as great.

The ICs main drawback is their poor approaching capability... so that mixed with Fox's defensive options really helps him here. Lasers are more effective for camping than ice blocks, so generally, they have to approach.

Spend time in the air, but don't come down predictably... the hardest part about this match is the fact that you CAN'T let them guess you out, or you lose a stock. I think Fox is particularly good at mixing things up, so it's not a huge deal, but on the other hand, his general lack of range, and the predictable nature of most Fox players will make this match TERRIBLE.

SH Fair is another saving grace for Fox.. it allows you to zone against them, stop aerial approaches, and not get shield grabbed... it's REALLY nice here, even if they are short... it applies a lot of pressure, even if it doesn't hit every time.

I think this match gets MUCH better as the players get better / more knowledgeable about the matchup...
like, for mediocre players, I could see this going as far as 8-2 for the ICs...

But in higher level play... assuming that both players are of equal skill, and know the match fairly well, it becomes closer to a 6-4 for ICs. I can agree with that.

It might be a bit worse for Fox than I am giving it... I have very limited experience here... but from what I do have, I'd say anywhere between 6-4 and 7-3 for ICs.


OH!

stage counterpicks are anything with uneven or changing terrain.

yoshi's Island, Lylat, Norfair, Corneria, Possibly Delfino, Frigate and MAINLY RAINBOW CRUISE!



IC's ain't got nothin on FLAME DASH!!!